Next Test: E85 flex fuel vehicle via fuel trimming

[bastard dsm]

well my car made less power in 3rd than a 4th gear pull.if you could get your car to hook in
1st,2nd,3rd and 4th you will see that 1st makes 150hp,2nd 250hp,3rd 350hp and 4th 450hp as an example.the load points are different and the gearing affects the power output, thats why the 1.0 gear
is the best gear to tune on and see the most power a car makes.i have a friend that i run from time to time and 2nd,3rd gear we are even but as soon as we get into 4th i pull him hard hmmm. why is this? glen i was running rich with the a/f's (11.5) so i could bring the
idc down some on the 750's.

 

[2gGSX]

A properly set up loading-dyno should have no difference in readings regardless of what gear you are in. Your profile lists that you ran on a dyno-jet, which is an inertia-dyno--that is why you got different readings between 3rd and 4th gear.

 

[JayRolla]

My brothers 255lph may be maxed out on that 16g causing him to have high IDC's, but Jack here in the springs has made a lot more power on just a 255 so I was thinking that wasnt the issue. We are going to raise the fuel pressure if its all ready not too high and see if that will help but if the pump is maxed I dont think it will.

Anyways there no reason not to go a little larger on the injectors anyways just to be safe. I would go with at least 1150's but if you have the EMS to control 1600's I would go with those. Just watch those IDC's and see what she can do with the injectors you have. Be carefull hitting 100% because doesnt that cuase the injector to pretty much spray like a sqirt gun instead of the nice mist and cause an unclean burn and detonation?

Anyways I'm about 2 weeks away from my own e85 setup. Once my 1200cc injectors come in I just need a fuel pump. Anyone heard of running dual 190's instead of 255's since thats already what I have, that should be enough fuel for a 16g. What about an inline 255 with the 190 in the tank?

Ohh and to black about my bros car we have the actuator tightened all the way and all its doing is keeping the wastegate flapper closed 100% and the car still only sees 20-22psi by redline and a spike of 28psi.

 

[Black_Bullet]

My brothers 255lph may be maxed out on that 16g causing him to have high IDC's, but Jack here in the springs has made a lot more power on just a 255 so I was thinking that wasnt the issue. We are going to raise the fuel pressure if its all ready not too high and see if that will help but if the pump is maxed I dont think it will.

Anyways there no reason not to go a little larger on the injectors anyways just to be safe. I would go with at least 1150's but if you have the EMS to control 1600's I would go with those. Just watch those IDC's and see what she can do with the injectors you have. Be carefull hitting 100% because doesnt that cuase the injector to pretty much spray like a sqirt gun instead of the nice mist and cause an unclean burn and detonation?

Anyways I'm about 2 weeks away from my own e85 setup. Once my 1200cc injectors come in I just need a fuel pump. Anyone heard of running dual 190's instead of 255's since thats already what I have, that should be enough fuel for a 16g. What about an inline 255 with the 190 in the tank?

Ohh and to black about my bros car we have the actuator tightened all the way and all its doing is keeping the wastegate flapper closed 100% and the car still only sees 20-22psi by redline and a spike of 28psi.

So are you positive your brothers flapper isnt blowing open at all?
I can find you some threads about guys holding 24psi on their 16gs to redline and this was with cammed well setup motors and these were the guys with the biggest numbers.

Perhaps there is still a restriction somewhere else in his setup i.e. exhaust, or something.
Is this car on MAFT? Small,big, or evo 16g?

Anyways, i wouldnt mess with a 190lph and E85.
If anything just buy a high pressure 255lph... I dont know if it will matter, but one 255 and one 190lph should supply more fuel than two 190s. Well it sounds rational to me.

Why arent more people using the Denso 260lph Supra pump?
It flows a bit more than a 255 ive read, and running two of those could only benefit.
Are they that much more expensive or something to make them not an ideal option?

 

[kittay]

Are you running E85 as well?

Yes, I run straight E85 in the summer

 

[2gGSX]

The MKIV Supra pumps are generally much more expensive unless you can find some good deals.

The feed pump does not need to flow nearly as much as the inline pump--a 190 in the tank and a 255 feed would work fine. However, if you plan on making the most of the 1600cc injectors, you're gonna need to look into a twin pump setup.

 

[turboglenn]

Fi8lled up with my first tank of corn juice today I'm loving it already, but definitely need bigger injectors.

I layed down a quick enlargement throughout the map, then started using my trim knob to make up for fuel not in the map. I ended up at 75% IDC at 18-19psi WITH having my methoanol kicking in, running an M5 nozzle pre-turbo only right now but will probably be increasing the meth flow and changin it to the TB to keep AFR's in check.

So far making the same boost i do feel a slight increase in performance (but i'm running 22* timing under all boosted ranges too so that could be it) There's NOT A TRACE OF KNOCK!!! Except when letting out and clutching it, but i'm sure that's some good 'ol piston slap going on inside the motor. The Ethanol is definitely cool, i just hope i can get enough pump and injector to keep using it without spending a fortune!

 

[Black_Bullet]

Fi8lled up with my first tank of corn juice today I'm loving it already, but definitely need bigger injectors.

I layed down a quick enlargement throughout the map, then started using my trim knob to make up for fuel not in the map. I ended up at 75% IDC at 18-19psi WITH having my methoanol kicking in, running an M5 nozzle pre-turbo only right now but will probably be increasing the meth flow and changin it to the TB to keep AFR's in check.

So far making the same boost i do feel a slight increase in performance (but i'm running 22* timing under all boosted ranges too so that could be it) There's NOT A TRACE OF KNOCK!!! Except when letting out and clutching it, but i'm sure that's some good 'ol piston slap going on inside the motor. The Ethanol is definitely cool, i just hope i can get enough pump and injector to keep using it without spending a fortune!

See you've been over thinking it a little bit. Just slap some respectfully bigger injectors on there and have fun with whatever that turbo can give you.

75% IDC's still means you have a lot of room left.
Lean it out more and see if you can get away with 23-24 psi without exceeding 95% IDC.
That should be plenty of power for you on the street with your current timing advance and turbo size. I just keep thinking about how your probably spinning thru any gear that keeps you under any speed limit.

But lucky you that you get some corn energy in your car.
I need to stop reading all these taunting E85 threads....

 

[turboglenn]

Black Bullit, yea, i over anyalyse everything, it's just my nature. I turned off the meth and things got lean fast!! SO i started adding more puslewidth and it got better, but i started running out of injector FAST.... The methanol injection should be just like having an extra injector+driver setup on a gas car, so hopefully i can band aid the issue with the meth untill i get the correct injectors.

One thing i notice already is that going FFV is going to be harder than i though... Under wide open you need a lot more change in pulsewidth than you do during cruise and idle, but i will find a way to make it work. Even if i have to just load a different map, i'll get it done. BUt i woudl prefer to have it where i ca just flip a switch to go from one fuel to the other. WE Will SEE!!!

 

[kittay]

Just FYI- E85 will show no knock..

 

[turboglenn]

Just FYI- E85 will show no knock..

Do you mean it won't knock, or it won't show up that it is knocking? This kinda confuses me, i've been around cars my whole life, but never messed with ethanol, only nitromethane on a drag bike.

I apreciate all help, so whatever you know that may be helpfull, i'm listening!

 

[bastard dsm]

well just got done tunning my friends galant gsx and im very impressed on the outcome of this budget monster.stock block and head+springs retainers and cams, fp 3052 with tial 38wg,custom dp and 3" exh., custom fmic and pipe kit,255 pump with 850's, maft and dsm link and comp stg4 clutch and e85. at 20psi on 93 the car made 418hp and on 26-27psi car made 520hp on e85.the car clears the 500hp mark at 25psi but the intake manny is holding back some hp. this car also has stock fuel lines and reg, and yes you can still get knock on e85. i got 1-2 counts when the cars a/f's went 12.7 at 24psi at 22deg of timming. hey glen my friend said he is using a walden inline pump but he is going to a twin intank setup.

 

[turboglenn]

Wow! Those numbers sound great, and on smaller injectors (for what you hear on E85 setups anyway).


What were the IDC's and AFR's like on that tune? I am still waiting on a new wastegate cap and spring so i can start with 15 or so as a base so it's more stable up top and my EBC can get more than 23-24ish.

I have one 255, so i guess i need to find a good vendor who has the dual pump hangar and then get some 1150's (that's what i want anyway), but until then i'll maximize with what i got and add fuel through the meth system to keep the car around 12:1

 

[bastard dsm]

with the global setting at 50 the a/f's we 11.7-12.0 with idc at 90-95%, at 5k-7k i added about 10% of fuel and the rest is still zeroed out. i can bring the idc down some with the global but i still need to touch up some stuff first.

 

[JeffGST]

Just FYI- E85 will show no knock..

It will show no knock, if you are not knocking.

I compare Ethanol to my C16 map. I make more WHP on Ethanol than I do on C16 at the same boost. It is truly amazing stuff, that cannot be compared to even leaded gasoline.

 

[JayRolla]

It will show no knock, if you are not knocking.

I compare Ethanol to my C16 map. I make more WHP on Ethanol than I do on C16 at the same boost. It is truly amazing stuff, that cannot be compared to even leaded gasoline.

Its great to hear some other guys agree with me that the ethonal makes more power.

And I want to know why that one guy said e85 wont knock?? We got my brothers 16g e85 car to knock but that was at 28* timing. Emanage adds a lot of timing just when we only added 2 degrees. Anyways she saw 3 counts of knock at that timing.

 

[JeffGST]

I have knock with E85 also, but that starts to happen at 35 PSI of boost. Even this magic fuel has it's limits. My goal is to hit 140 MPH with E85.

 

[turboglenn]

I hit some knock today running a bit lean at 20psi because there was a big lean gap on the 3-4 shift. Truely amzing stuff. With my meth injection, i am running an M5 nozzle and seein only 70% IDC @ 20psi with AFR's of 12 - 12.3:1 during the whole pull. I turned the boost up to 25 on the way home from work and it was amazing feeling. Even with the quaiffe i'm back to spinning in third again

There's so many little improvements from running this stuff that i'm doubting ever wanting to use pump gas again except for on long trips

I am also happy to report that i haven't lost any mileage yet! Of course my pump gas map was rich in a lot of areas for "safety reasons" of sorts. But as soon as i get the lean spots dialed out of the map, i can easily see a lot more HP coming out of this stuff. I havent' run race gas since getting my J&S in the car, but from when i was on a stock ECU (and other cars i've tuned) I can already agree taht this is even less suseptible to knock than C16... I"m now an ethanol addict, and i'm not looking for a rehab center

 

[Black_Bullet]

I hit some knock today running a bit lean at 20psi because there was a big lean gap on the 3-4 shift. Truely amzing stuff. With my meth injection, i am running an M5 nozzle and seein only 70% IDC @ 20psi with AFR's of 12 - 12.3:1 during the whole pull. I turned the boost up to 25 on the way home from work and it was amazing feeling. Even with the quaiffe i'm back to spinning in third again

There's so many little improvements from running this stuff that i'm doubting ever wanting to use pump gas again except for on long trips

I am also happy to report that i haven't lost any mileage yet! Of course my pump gas map was rich in a lot of areas for "safety reasons" of sorts. But as soon as i get the lean spots dialed out of the map, i can easily see a lot more HP coming out of this stuff. I havent' run race gas since getting my J&S in the car, but from when i was on a stock ECU (and other cars i've tuned) I can already agree taht this is even less suseptible to knock than C16... I"m now an ethanol addict, and i'm not looking for a rehab center

Sounds good

 

[twack]

Glenn is all this without your intercooler

 

[turboglenn]

Glenn is all this without your intercooler

No, but i have not been able to get the thought out of my to put the "bypass pipe" back on and see what happens. I've been wondering how much difference there would be between methanol (no intercooler is common) and E85 (seems we're all still learning on this one) and how much difference there would be in the cooling effects of the two? I'm sure some one with the knowledge will chime in.....and that's why tuners is the ONLY DSM board i'm on

 

[JayRolla]

I would try to go a little richer on your tune. Guys here making 600whp have played alot with e85 and have had best results around 10.9-11.1 afr's. Shouldnt be seeing any knock at that low of boost. Are you still running the stock fuel filter?

 

[turboglenn]

I would try to go a little richer on your tune. Guys here making 600whp have played alot with e85 and have had best results around 10.9-11.1 afr's. Shouldnt be seeing any knock at that low of boost. Are you still running the stock fuel filter?

Yea, stock fuel filter. As for the knock, it only occured during the 3-4 shift where there's a massive lean gasp in the Throttle pump settings on the ECU. As soon as i dial them in for the e85 i believe i'll be okay. I had previously seen 14 - 15:1 AFR with no knock under that same boost before i cranked up the fuel, I run my pump gas at 11:1, so i am hoping that a 12:1 tune is fine. It works on leaded 100 and above, so i guess i just igured 105 would be good to near the same marks. Untill i get some bigger injectors i'll go as rich as i can without running 100% IDC's...95 i'm cool with (hell even 100 isn't so bad as long as it's not floating them anywhere past there) wouldn't be the first (or last) time i've pushed a set of fuel squirters

Don't get me wrong, i do apreciate all advice, but from what i've seen so far, I'm going to just trust my gut on this and tune it like any other fuel save for going a little slower to the limits of it. I am the type to give 1* per tuning session and studying it over a longer term instead of just cranking things up and letting them fly so to speak.( this E85, it's amazing so far, as i've said before). If i pop a motor, well, that's just a learning curve I guess But i don't plan to.

If i'm going to charge others to tune their cars, i've always felt that i should test all waters on my own car just to say "well, i did it on my car" and let my customers have faith in that phrase, as reliability is one of my trademarks around here...my tunes don't go pop in the night everyday like some others around here...shhhh (also why my pump gas numbers are so low heheh but it does it everyday all day too )

 

[twack]

Ive read that ethanol burns cooler then gasoline, so it might not be a bad idea to try going back or at least trying

 

[JeffGST]

I would try to go a little richer on your tune. Guys here making 600whp have played alot with e85 and have had best results around 10.9-11.1 afr's. Shouldnt be seeing any knock at that low of boost. Are you still running the stock fuel filter?

600 WHP on E85 with 11.1 AFR's on a gasoline wideband? I cannot come close to even running that rich on my fuel system at that power level. I have 2 fuel pumps in parallel and 1600cc injectors at 100% IDC. I wish I could run that rich.

11.1 IMO is an extremely fat tune on Ethanol. No reason to run that pig rich unless you are just paranoid of engine failure. 11.5-12.0 is a good range to be in. Would you run C16 at 11.1 to 1 AFR's?? Probably not.