New FP turbo

[Steve93Talon]

From what I recall, the 68HTA was initially designed for the FP WHITE EVO turbo

The first application it was released for was the EVO White. But from what I've read, FP developed the wheel as a potential replacement to their original EVO Green. The Green has a 5 bladed wheel with a 69.5mm exducer that is a bit laggier than a stock IX turbo. This was their attempt at improving spool while maintaining the same choke flow. It failed to perform close enough to the original Green so they instead released it as the White and kept the stock turbine side to keep the cost down and make is a more appealing entry level option.

Then came the EVO Red, which is a reverse rotation version of the HTA76 wheel. Now they've finally updated the Green to HTA spec with their HTA73 wheel. It spools like the original Green but flows a bit more up top (54 lb/min I think). From what I've heard, they're coming out with a new line-up of HTA turbos for the WRX that will include a clockwise rotation version of this wheel. If they do, a DSM HTA73 can't be far behind. Picture a street/strip 20g on crack. This would effectively replace the standard 20g and the original DSM Green.

I understand the arguments that the TD05H wheel is a restriction, along with the 7cm hotside, but remember that plenty of people have pushed these parts very far, combining them with these improved HTA wheels can only help.

 

[dsm-onster]

Matt,

Not sure what your arguing about but I'm talking about the flow rating of the EVO3 16g and comparing it to the stated choke flow of the FP 68HTA. I'm stating there isn't much more than +30 h.p. difference between'em and that it is a judgement call that spending almost double the price for +30 h.p. over the EVO3 16g is worth it. Hope that clears up what I'm talking about.

I don't know that MHI underrates their maps. When I do the conversion from m^3/s to lb/min I get some pretty high airflow numbers from the EVO 16g map. Looks like at 29.9 in Hg and 68*F it could choke as high as 47.7 lb/min actually if I use a volume flow of 636 cfm. You can play with the numbers and get any answer you want, but the EVO3 16g isn't choking at 42.7 lb/min unless your driving it at Pike's Peak or something.

We're kind of saying the same thing. I'm saying that the 18g and 20g already flow more than the 16g. about 50whp difference between the three. To me, this new wheel dosn't make much sense for a dsm guy when you can get an evo3 16g for so much less. It DOES make sense to a scooby guy.

I was trying to reinforce that the 18g flows 4lb/min over the evo3 16g and 3-4 lb/min under the 20g. To show that I'm confused about the point of this wheel for the dsm.

And cfm = 33.5 ft^3 X 60sec X m^3/sec.
evo compressor map = .29 m^3/sec edge of map at the 145K rpm curve. Of which the 18g and 20g maps do not have.
Cfm = 614.22
ballpark lb/min at 80F intake temp at 100ft above sea level = cfm X .69 = about 42lb/min.

"HTA73" with an appropriate turbine wheel would be wild!

 

[pboglio]

Read this first, especially the "definition" of choke:

TurboByGarrett.com - Turbo Tech103

Garrett states they consider choke to occur below 58% compressor efficiency. The EVO 16g has the 145,000 rpm line stopping dead on .3 m^3/s (636 cfm) at what looks alot like 60% efficiency to me. Looks like MHI uses 750mm HG or 14.505 psi on the Small 16g map for barometric test pressure, see bottom of map on the correction formula. Using 750 mm Hg (14.505 psi) off the small 16g map which is clearly marked and 20*C off the EVO 16g map along with .3 m^3/s of volume flow (636 cfm), I calculate an air density of almost exactly .074 lb/ft^3 and a choked mass airflow of about 47.06 lb/min on the EVO3 16g. It is what it is, I'm not making this stuff up.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm going to always tell those that run a turbo not to run it under 65% efficiency. Good point about where choke occurs.

I'm techically agreeing with you that this new compressor isn't really for the dsm guys.

BTW a more realistic expression of airfow is using a higher inlet temp than 68*F. Typically companies use 85*F which is more commonly seen during season even witha CAI. I'm basing my math of the more common 85*F and 14.3psia.

 

[red1993gsallmt]

I bet this thing would be alot of fun being paired with a 2.3 stroker. Hmmmm I might be the guinea pig!

Be great down low but it sucks wacthing the boost fall as the motor pulls in more then the turbo can give above 5k, had that problem the tdo6 18g

 

[GDNF2ET]

Does the HTA68 and the Evo16gIII have the same hotside ? I'm asking cause FP ported my housing for an external wastegate and I would switch housings if I buy an HTA68...

 

[pneumo]

Yes they use the same turbine wheel, you can swap exhaust housings.
If you get one, let us know what you think of it.

 

[We're on Boost]

Garret T04E-50 trim ~ 44 lb/min @65% effic @ 2.0 PR
MHI 18G ~ 41.5 lb/min (600 cfm rating) @ 2.0 PR

PR 2.0 is kind of irrelevant if you are looking at a compressor map to guess at a turbo's capability. That would only be about 12 psi of boost measured in the intake manifold plenum. For what most of us are doing you would probably want to look at around PR ~ 3.0 which would be about 25 psi boost.
The interesting thing about this is, these MHI maps don't even go that high! (PR=3). (Well I'm just looking at the 20g map.) So I kind of conclude that a lot of people are running their MHI turbos quite a ways off the map! Whereas the T04E 50 trim map looks real nice at PR=3. I guess nobody has any HTA compressor maps, but if you make the wild assumption that they would be similar to the map for a similar sized Borg-Warner, then you can see that the HTAs would be very comfortable at PRs of around 3 to 4.
I like your idea of comparing maps for different turbos at the same efficiency line though, rather than "choke to choke". To me, same efficiency is more apples to apples than choke to choke.

By the way, I have a jpg of the TD06-20G compressor map that Robert Young uses - it's the one where somebody penciled in by hand what he calls a "valid speed line" at about 145,000 rpm. Even this penciled in speed line does not quite make it up to PR=3. I think this map is in here somewhere, but if anybody wants it posted, I could put it in imageshack.

 

[pneumo]

By the way, I have a jpg of the TD06-20G compressor map that Robert Young uses - it's the one where somebody penciled in by hand what he calls a "valid speed line" at about 145,000 rpm. Even this penciled in speed line does not quite make it up to PR=3. I think this map is in here somewhere, but if anybody wants it posted, I could put it in imageshack.

I'd like to have a look at that map. I'm curious since the common 20G map shows it just barely reaches 2.9 PR at 130krpm at max efficiency point, so 145k rpm should place it around 3.2 PR. Perhaps the common 20G map is inaccurate?

 

[We're on Boost]

I'd like to have a look at that map. I'm curious since the common 20G map shows it just barely reaches 2.9 PR at 130krpm at max efficiency point, so 145k rpm should place it around 3.2 PR. Perhaps the common 20G map is inaccurate?

I'll attempt to get a good quality copy showing up in here from imageshack.

I don't think the common 20g map is really inaccurate. The map I'm talking about is identical except that it has the extra speed line added by hand. Robert has also penciled in lb/min numbers along the bottom scale, the MHI numbers are cubic meters per second. You could extrapolate the top end of it if you want to guess at where it would cross the higher PR lines. I don't remember what Robert's story was on the extra speed line. Either he got it from an MHI engineer, or he added it himself as a result of his own measurements on the turbo.
There you go!

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[eazy2g]

Has anyone got any real info on this turbo yet? From reading, its still all speculation...

 

[We're on Boost]

Has anyone got any real info on this turbo yet? From reading, its still all speculation...

I think you're right, but in the meantime, anyone who is as technoid as I am would probably go nuts with all the testing tidbits that FP put into the thread that introduced the Evo White (same compressor wheel, but otherwise an evo9 based turbo).

New FP White turbo - evolutionm.net

They logged just about everything you would want, look around page 21 where they show that stuff. Grocmax (Scott at FP) was a main contributor in this thread, and a number of other people who know what the heck they are talking about.

As others have said though, since the housings are different, also single scroll vs "1.5" scroll, the overall results will be different!

 

[E116]

I just saw on fp's website that Curt Brown added a review for this turbo. This is what he said


"Want to thank Forced Performance yet again for a kick ass product, the 68HTA. Truly a 100% bolt on upgrade for any 14b through 16G, from the first drive I noticed near 10 lb's a minute more airflow over a small 16G and had no extra lag, can't ask for anything better than that. Another benifit ive seen is zero surge, FP really did this one right, good job! Dyno #'s coming, waiting for a custom SMIM then of to the dyno... 500hp on a stock block and basic stock car? Lets hope so"

 

[We're on Boost]

... 500hp on a stock block and basic stock car? Lets hope so"

Well I guess if anybody can do it it's him.

 

[eazy2g]

We'll see. I jumped in and ordered during the BF weekend. Price seemed really good, $720. My block is stock but I'll probably just get some 272s to put in with the turbo. And I'll have a really good shop here do the dyno tune... They have built some awesome Mitsu's DSM/EVOs and have the paper work to prove it, a lot of 500 AWHP club members from them.

So once I get everything together, I'll keep you guys posted...

 

[AlphaVision]

Well I got this turbo during the BF sale ($719) as well so I gues it was a good choice pricewise? I was wondering what you guys think a good setup for this turbo will be.

 

[e85_4g63]

Is anyone besides jesus (aka Curt B) going to install and review this turbo for us "normal" people?

 

[anmGST]

Does the HTA68 and the Evo16gIII have the same hotside ? I'm asking cause FP ported my housing for an external wastegate and I would switch housings if I buy an HTA68...

Hmm I wonder if I send my 14B with E3 exhaust side they can convert it??
I will shot Aniel a email.

 

[pboglio]

Well I finally ordered the 68HTA....for my STi that is. Couldn't justify it on the DSM but my IHI VF39 took a dump on my Subie so it'll be rocking the FP 68HTA.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm sure the airflow will be the same regardless....do you have a way to log airflow on the Scooby Doo, pboglio?

I'm just curious if this turbo is truly capable of the advertised 47 lb/min.

 

[pboglio]

No, my STi is nearly stock unfortunately. This turbo will probably kick off the modding process but I'd be a poor candidate for showcasing its capabilities.

This 68HTA still uses a TD05H turbine wheel & 7cm housing, so it's functionally extremely close to the DSM turbo.
Here is a 68HTA dyno of Maperformance's +400 whp pull on their Subie: MAPerformance: 68HTA, Stock 2.0, E85 - NASIOC

I was doing some highspeed pulls on my way up to Wisconsin and the Subies like to burn oil. I knew the motor was low on oil and high rpm pulls use up oil like crazy. My theory is the sump went extremely low and the oil pressure dipped and caused the turbo failure. The Subies have a TSB for clogged turbo oil line filters and a bunch of factors in my case didn't help (i.e. low oil level, clogged airfilter, intake leaks, etc.).

I felt a power drop off, then got on it again and heard what sounded like the rotating assembly making contact and now she just surges and wheezes under boost. The turbo came back to life somewhat when I topped off the oil but the topend is gone and slowly but surely the car isn't making boost anymore. What I like about the STi's is that even with a dying turbo, the extra displacement allows the car to still pull strong. I'm forced to drive the car at the moment but I'd rather not to.

 

[JusMX141]

Interesting info in that link- the part that caught my eye was "Hopefully this will be enough to keep Forced Performance from discontinuing this turbo. I heard a rumor that they might be switching to a new craze but I hope they still offer this turbo for the consumers looking to make some quick power!"

That thread was created just a few months ago, but still before FP really marketed the HTA68 in a DSM platform- so it's interesting that there would be talk of discontinuing something that is relatively new technology so soon. I'm sure it's just a rumor, but keep in mind the TD06SL2 turbos weren't around for very long.

I'll be interested in hearing your results compared to your IHI turbo even with the car being in relatively stock form!

 

[pboglio]

Yeah, hope they don't discontinue before shipping it out to me I heard rumblings about a 7cm housing on the 2.5 Liter motor being overly restrictive but the 8 cm housing is widely available from MHI.

 

[We're on Boost]

Yeah, hope they don't discontinue before shipping it out to me I heard rumblings about a 7cm housing on the 2.5 Liter motor being overly restrictive but the 8 cm housing is widely available from MHI.

One of my all-time favorite dyno charts was one that FP had about a year ago on their page for the subie Green. It was cool because they had 2 pulls on the chart, only diff being one was the green with 7cm, the other with 8cm turbine housing. Same engine, same fuel, everything else the same. Anyway, I thought the 7cm pull was killer. Very phat low end and mid range. Gave away only about 20 hp on the top end to the 8cm, as I remember. I'm just remembering this, I stupidly did not take a copy of that picture while it was there. Now it's gone probably lost forever.


BTW it looks to me like the subie Green HTA is the one being discontinued possibly. Don't know what the story is on that.

I'm just curious if this turbo is truly capable of the advertised 47 lb/min.

Well the closest comparison I can find is to the Borg Warner S200-51. This has a 50.7 mm inducer, 69.6 mm exducer, and I think it is a 7 blade wheel, and it is in a small housing about 6" in diameter. It is "rated" at 48 lbs/minute. That 69.6mm number includes the extended tip on the exducer, as I read their specs.
I don't know what the inducer dia is on the HTA68.

 

[pneumo]

I'd also be very interested to know the inducer diameter of this new wheel. Hopefully someone is brave enough to remove the compressor housing and measure it.