new build, FP t4z hta88?

[vaboys2ndgen]

The Boz: def. post up and let us know how it all goes. keith hit me up when you order yours i may be stuck with this gt35r but i'm upgrading to the htadsm88 next week.

 

[TheBoz]

You can get the HTA on your 35r. You just need to send it in.

 

[92awddsm]

You can get the HTA on your 35r. You just need to send it in.

Im not sure the hta35 will do what he wants. It will give him just a taste of what he is looking for but wont satisfy his hunger. Plus, his is a fully built stroker with a fully built IPT auto.

 

[92awddsm]

The Boz: def. post up and let us know how it all goes. keith hit me up when you order yours i may be stuck with this gt35r but i'm upgrading to the htadsm88 next week.

Lauren will be pissed if I order it but oh well. I have only spent $2+k in the past few weeks but how long have I been saving and just let the car sit now? I did find out today if I can work this weekend on a commercial building similar to my warehouse at work, both sat and sun. i may not be able to make it to md this weekend but this job will almost pay for the turbo alone. This was kind of unexpected but it is a good thing.

 

[vaboys2ndgen]

i think when i get back from picking my motor up keith im going to be calling FP. money is burnin in the bank account


off topic i wont be in MD until LATE if at all, i gotta work morning til close at the dealership fri, sat and sun.

 

[kingjust]

Not nessacerily. There are many, many other varibles that come into play, but it is possible for a smaller sized wastegate to effectivily control boost on a high PSI application.

Your understanding of limits of magnitude is correct, but you're still missing our point (which is the very concept of a wastegate).


Yes, if he chooses to run more boost pressure in the future, his wastegate will be working LESS. The valve will open later, and a lesser amount. It will be bypassing much less exhaust gas as apposed to when he was running less boost pressure.

Therefore, theoretically, he could use a smaller wastegate with high boost.
(please note: I'm not implying that a smaller gate is better for a high boost application - just that it IS possible)


Wrong. The diameter of the valve does not come into play when regarding seat pressure of the valve. Spring rate, boost pressure, and exhaust pressure do though.

I'm not talking about seat pressure, sorry for the misunderstanding, i'm talking about when the wastegate is operating, meaning it's already been cracked open to control boost. The larger the opening the easier the gases can be diverted, vice a smaller opening. Are you getting what i'm saying now, I understand what you mean, but theoretically could run... doesn't really cut it, don't you think? Find me someone who is running 35+ boost, and ask what kind of WG size he is running. Again, remember, i'm talking about "control" or "controlling the boost" without creep or spikes. I know that those three factors, mani pressure, spring pressure chosen for your WG, and turbine mani pressure all play roles, but just to make my point more distinct, given all those factors, what size diameter WG could effectively control his boost... a 38mm or a larger setup? Focus on controlling the boost, not seat pressure, because I didn't mention anything about seat pressure. Let me know what you think! Thanks

KJ

 

[kingjust]

The larger the wg, the harder it is to control boost on a high boost application. A 44mm or 46mm wg has more surface area and more likely to be blown open from manifold pressure which will cause boost fluctuations. A 38mm generally works well for high boost applications on small to mid size turbos.

Than why doesn't FP offer their housings with 35 or 38mm WG options? That product right their contradicts your whole statement IMO, they are one of the top turbo builders in the world correct? They know what they are doing correct? Also, surface area can be as large as hell, but what is forcing it closed, the spring, which you have choices on the rates, and other factors of course.

Now with a larger surface area, the valve itself would have to lift less to control a certain level of boost vice a smaller surface, which would have to have more lift, correct... all dependent on the three factors of course (IM pressure, Turbine Housing pressure, and WG spring rate)? So with the smaller surface area'ed valve have to open more, don't you think that it would be harder to control boost?

I don't think it will be "blown open", you have manifold pressure pushing against the valve opposite of the path of the exhaust gas, and some where inline you have some type of controlling mechanism of the pressure coming from the manifold. Damn, I had a point but I forgot! Oh well...

And if i'm not mistaken, he said he has his eye on the HTA88, which is not a small or mid size turbo! Let me know what you think! Thanks

KJ

 

[99gst_racer]

Than why doesn't FP offer their housings with 35 or 38mm WG options?

I can't say I know why they do this for sure, but I have an idea. They probably cast those turbine housings with the 44mm flange for the exact same reason that I run one - because of the v-band. I absolutely hate the design of the 38mm 2-bolt flange. I don't like threading fine-thread bolts into heat cycled cast steel, and I don't like sealing with a gasket. Do I need the large valve of the 44mm gate? Nope. If they introduced a 38mm v-band wastegate, I'd buy a couple in a heartbeat and sell my 44mm gate.

Find me someone who is running 35+ boost, and ask what kind of WG size he is running.

Me. I've used a 38mm Tial at 30 psi and a 44mm Tial at 30 psi on the same sized turbo.

They both control equally.


Fun fact:
With either wastegate, at 15 psi the wastegate dump noise is much louder than it is at 30 psi.

Explain to me why that is.


(PS - I'm no longer following your 'point' either.....)

 

[kingjust]

I can't say I know why they do this for sure, but I have an idea. They probably cast those turbine housings with the 44mm flange for the exact same reason that I run one - because of the v-band. I absolutely hate the design of the 38mm 2-bolt flange. I don't like threading fine-thread bolts into heat cycled cast steel, and I don't like sealing with a gasket. Do I need the large valve of the 44mm gate? Nope. If they introduced a 38mm v-band wastegate, I'd buy a couple in a heartbeat and sell my 44mm gate.


Me. I've used a 38mm Tial at 30 psi and a 44mm Tial at 30 psi on the same sized turbo.

They both control equally.


Fun fact:
With either wastegate, at 15 psi the wastegate dump noise is much louder than it is at 30 psi.

Explain to me why that is.


(PS - I'm no longer following your 'point' either.....)

Not to muck up this thread, I pm'ed you brotha!

 

[vaboys2ndgen]

Placed my order today keith, thats why i was tryna get ahold of you.


4r camshafts
dsm 88hta turbo
fp oil feed and return SS lines
FP 4" intake pipe w/ 4" coupler
tial 44mm wg

 

[92awddsm]

Are you getting what i'm saying now, I understand what you mean, but theoretically could run... doesn't really cut it, don't you think? Find me someone who is running 35+ boost, and ask what kind of WG size he is running.
KJ

I have run 35+psi on my 60-1 with an internal wg and had no spiking, creeping, or any other issues for that matter. As long as you have a properly sized turbine housing, larger wastegates generally work better in lower boost applications, and smaller wastegates generally work better in higher boost applications. I think that your missing the point that in high boost, less exhaust gasses have to be bypassed through the wg and vice versa in low boost applications.

You should really spend more time educating yourself on wastegates and the sorts before you start pumping out information opposite of what has been written and proven time and time again.

And I didnt start this thread about wg sizing or comparisons. If just want to keep cluttering it with off topic, useless info, take it to the hangout.

 

[92awddsm]

Than why doesn't FP offer their housings with 35 or 38mm WG options? That product right their contradicts your whole statement IMO, they are one of the top turbo builders in the world correct? They know what they are doing correct? Also, surface area can be as large as hell, but what is forcing it closed, the spring, which you have choices on the rates, and other factors of course.

Now with a larger surface area, the valve itself would have to lift less to control a certain level of boost vice a smaller surface, which would have to have more lift, correct... all dependent on the three factors of course (IM pressure, Turbine Housing pressure, and WG spring rate)? So with the smaller surface area'ed valve have to open more, don't you think that it would be harder to control boost?

I don't think it will be "blown open", you have manifold pressure pushing against the valve opposite of the path of the exhaust gas, and some where inline you have some type of controlling mechanism of the pressure coming from the manifold. Damn, I had a point but I forgot! Oh well...

And if i'm not mistaken, he said he has his eye on the HTA88, which is not a small or mid size turbo! Let me know what you think! Thanks

KJ

The majority of those running the fp 30 series housing is using them for lower boost, street applications. Hence the bolt on part. My low boost is higher than a lot of the fp users high boost will ever be. It also has a lot to do with liability on Forced performances end. And I never said that the larger wg would not work with higher boost.

Do you not ever remerber hearing about the 16g's having boost control problems with the larger wg flapper at higher boost level? Or those that had creep issues with the stock flapper in low boost applications? Well, the smaller flapper didnt flow enough at low boost to bypass enough exhaust and caused creep but worked pefectly fine with no creep or spiking isues under high boost. The larger flapper worked great for low boost applications and eliminated creep but in higher boost applications, boost would begin to fall off in the upper rpm range because exhaust manifold pressure was blowing the flapper open due to the larger surface area.

And yes, the 88hta is classified as a mid frame turbo. I have yet to meet anyone that is running a truely large frame turbo.
Precision Turbo & Engine - Turbocharger, Intercooler, Fuel Injector, Performance Parts & more!

Specs on pte's largest mid frame turbo:
150-5030 GT478818 1,500 Call T4 Tang 0.96 Inducer 4.386" (111.4mm) Exducer 4.020" (102.1mm) Journal Bearing Varies / 4.00" Inducer 3.460" (87.9)mm) Exducer 4.620" (118mm)

The 1500 is the hp rating. Now for their smallest large frame turbo:
150-5030 GT478818 1,500 Call T5 V-Band 0.96 Inducer 4.386" (111.4mm) Exducer 4.020" (102.1mm) Journal Bearing Varies / 4.00" Inducer 3.460" (87.9)mm) Exducer 4.620" (118mm)

Notice that when it went from a t4 to a t5 housing is when it went from a mid frame to large frame.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I was in the same boat you are in Keith I was going to go with the FP HTA88 but I got convinced to go with a big BW turbo and I am very happy I made that decision. Local place is hooking me up with a BW twin scroll turbo with a custom tubular manifold with dual gates for just a shave more than what FP wants for the HTA88 alone. And according to there BW rep. it will spool quicker and flows 3-4lbs more a minute.

 

[92awddsm]

I was in the same boat you are in Keith I was going to go with the FP HTA88 but I got convinced to go with a big BW turbo and I am very happy I made that decision. Local place is hooking me up with a BW twin scroll turbo with a custom tubular manifold with dual gates for just a shave more than what FP wants for the HTA88 alone. And according to there BW rep. it will spool quicker and flows 3-4lbs more a minute.

Unfortunately, I dont have the hookup that you do. All Im giving fp for the 88hta is an arm, for your setup, I would also have to give a leg and buy an auto setup.

Im not trying to build a brute powerhouse, just something with a little more go than what I have currently. I am also trying to leave so room to grow with this setup. So far, I and a lot of others are confident that I can achieve my goals with the setup Im going with. Now, If someone wants to offer me a complete, reliable, and new t4 setup or big bw setup for what Im paying for the turbo, then I would go that route.

Another main reason for not going t4 right now is because I have both a new dnp t3 manifold and a new turbonetics t3 cast manifold.Out of all honesty, I will more than likely port and ceramic coat the turbonetics and run it with a spacer just for reliability.

 

[wishihadatalon]

Unfortunately, I dont have the hookup that you do. All Im giving fp for the 88hta is an arm, for your setup, I would also have to give a leg and buy an auto setup.

Im not trying to build a brute powerhouse, just something with a little more go than what I have currently. I am also trying to leave so room to grow with this setup. So far, I and a lot of others are confident that I can achieve my goals with the setup Im going with. Now, If someone wants to offer me a complete, reliable, and new t4 setup or big bw setup for what Im paying for the turbo, then I would go that route.

Another main reason for not going t4 right now is because I have both a new dnp t3 manifold and a new turbonetics t3 cast manifold.Out of all honesty, I will more than likely port and ceramic coat the turbonetics and run it with a spacer just for reliability.

T4 cast replica of the HKS manifold. You need that and an hta 88. I almost bought the hta 88. I was very very close to calling and ordering it. I was lucky and found a deal on a turbo a little larger so I decided to go that route. It isn't bb like I wanted, but I am hoping for the best.

Honestly if you bought a bw s372 for $1300 from The Turbo Trader and a hks replica from ongreen performance or slowboy for 799 I think, you wouldn't be that much off from the hta 88mm. Killer setup capable of some very fast times.


Paul, to debate, I think that the 15psi and 30psi noise thing is questionable. You are also moving a lot more air through your motor at 30psi than you are at 15psi. It isn't like the amount of exhaust energy stays the same as boost pressure is increased.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Check your PM Keith. The offer is good for as long as you need it to be.

 

[92awddsm]

Check your PM Keith. The offer is good for as long as you need it to be.

I got your pm. Let me ponder on it. I may decide tomorrow or 2 weeks from now. Just by chance, do you have a link to maps for the 356 and 362?

 

[92awddsm]

The Turbo Trader[/url] and a hks replica from ongreen performance or slowboy for 799 I think, you wouldn't be that much off from the hta 88mm. Killer setup capable of some very fast times.


P

Thats not the extended tip turbo. If I go bw, it wil be an extended tip turbo. If I stick with a garrett, it will be ball bearing and of the FP hta variety.

 

[2gGSX]

I got your pm. Let me ponder on it. I may decide tomorrow or 2 weeks from now. Just by chance, do you have a link to maps for the 356 and 362?

Bullseye Power Turbos

Firefox 2.0.0.13 has trouble loading the page--if you can't pull the maps up, try loading the page in Internet Explorer.

 

[92awddsm]

T4 cast replica of the HKS manifold. You need that and an hta 88.

Thats the beauty of the hta88. I can upgrade later to a t4 easily if needed without having to even remove the turbo from the car. The t4 turbine housing is readily available for the t4z turbo so swapping out is a snap.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I got your pm. Let me ponder on it. I may decide tomorrow or 2 weeks from now. Just by chance, do you have a link to maps for the 356 and 362?

I will try to get you maps. These aren't any of the S200 or S300 series turbo's. It's a whole new design that isn't exactly released to the public yet. Thousands of hours of testing though. I will try to find you specs and PM them too you.

 

[sniperelite]

I will try to get you maps. These aren't any of the S200 or S300 series turbo's. It's a whole new design that isn't exactly released to the public yet. Thousands of hours of testing though. I will try to find you specs and PM them too you.

Mind posting any info on these such as maybe we should wait till they come out?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

They are out, but not available to...well we call you normies . You can get them but they are hella expensive from Borg Warner. The 42R equivalent flows just as good with 600 rpm quicker spool and is $650 less.

 

[sniperelite]

Well I dont think I need anything that big ....yet But I thought a s366 would give about the same power/torque as a 37r?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

It will but it doesn't have the new bearing design in it so it's going to be a lot more expensive.