new build, FP t4z hta88?

[92awddsm]

I am currently building a new powerplant for my car and am looking for some recommendations. My head is already built short of replacing the valvesprings, and seals but it consists of:
Race ported 6 bolt head
1mm os Ferrea stainless
STR pro adjustable cam gears

I currently have the comp 200 cams and manley valve springs. Theses are being replaced.

New parts:
Crower rods
Mahle 8.6:1 pistons
JM "race version" intake manifold
FP 4r cams
ST dual springs

Given is that car will have all supporting mods, but tuning with dsmlink for a while.
It is also a trailer queen that may see 500 miles/yr on the street. I have no concerns about spool time but I will be building this around a t3 turbine housing with a 3" outlet and no nitrous for a while. I am shooting for high 500awhp-low600awhp on low boost(26-28psi, pump gas) and car is used for drag racing.

Now, I have been looking at the t4z 88hta and this should meet my needs without maxxing it out and leaving room to grow. Does anyone else have any better suggestions or recommendations? And no, Im not going to a t4 setup at the moment so dont even suggest it. And what would be suggested as far as turbine housing, .82 or 1.06 a/r? I already have info from some vendors but I would like some feedback from the community that is on the consumer end. Whichever route I go, I will probably be making the purchase next week.

 

[JeffGST]

If you refuse to go T4, then the best turbo choice is obvious. HTA35R

It will get you to the high 500, low 600 WHP range that you are looking for. It will spool up quickly and you will have great boost response inbetween shifts.

But you know that T4 is the way to go. I have a T3 T67BB and I wish I didn't. It's a slow spooling BB turbo even on my stroker motor. I've tuned 2.0L GT42's that have similar spool characteristics as my T3 T67BB. A divided T4 turbo will greatly enhance the performance of a car and it's well worth the money. I will be going this route in the very near future.

 

[92awddsm]

If you refuse to go T4, then the best turbo choice is obvious. HTA35R

It will get you to the high 500, low 600 WHP range that you are looking for. It will spool up quickly and you will have great boost response inbetween shifts.

But you know that T4 is the way to go. I have a T3 T67BB and I wish I didn't. It's a slow spooling BB turbo even on my stroker motor. I've tuned 2.0L GT42's that have similar spool characteristics as my T3 T67BB. A divided T4 turbo will greatly enhance the performance of a car and it's well worth the money. I will be going this route in the very near future.

You do realize that the 88hta doesnt have the t67 wheel in it dont you?

 

[wishihadatalon]

Why not look into some of the borg warner options? Honda guys seem to be having great success with those turbos.

 

[sniperelite]

This is the same debate im having...either a 35hta, 88hta, or a big BW turbo and im not doing the stroker....im gonna b revving to the moon seeing as all of these turbos can still put power out at those levels.

 

[kingjust]

I am currently building a new powerplant for my car and am looking for some recommendations. My head is already built short of replacing the valvesprings, and seals but it consists of:
Race ported 6 bolt head
1mm os Ferrea stainless
STR pro adjustable cam gears

I currently have the comp 200 cams and manley valve springs. Theses are being replaced.

New parts:
Crower rods
Mahle 8.6:1 pistons
JM "race version" intake manifold
FP 4r cams
ST dual springs

Given is that car will have all supporting mods, but tuning with dsmlink for a while.
It is also a trailer queen that may see 500 miles/yr on the street. I have no concerns about spool time but I will be building this around a t3 turbine housing with a 3" outlet and no nitrous for a while. I am shooting for high 500awhp-low600awhp on low boost(26-28psi, pump gas) and car is used for drag racing.

Now, I have been looking at the t4z 88hta and this should meet my needs without maxxing it out and leaving room to grow. Does anyone else have any better suggestions or recommendations? And no, Im not going to a t4 setup at the moment so dont even suggest it. And what would be suggested as far as turbine housing, .82 or 1.06 a/r? I already have info from some vendors but I would like some feedback from the community that is on the consumer end. Whichever route I go, I will probably be making the purchase next week.

Stay with the T4Z 88HTA .82 A/R. Go with the ERL manifold, if you call them they can cast any flange that you want! 44mm WG should be sufficient, but if your going to be running 35+ psi of boost later, I would get that new 60mm. Or the Synapse WG with heavy springs. My choices for the trailor queen!

KJ

 

[daren_p]

44mm WG should be sufficient, but if your going to be running 35+ psi of boost later, I would get that new 60mm. Or the Synapse WG with heavy springs.

KJ

This makes no sense, if the 44mm gate works fine for him at lower boost, he will have no issues running high boost. The lower the boost, the larger the WG required

 

[2gGSX]

Why the insistence on such low boost?

Another thing to look at would be the efficiency of your intercooling setup, which is even more important if you want to make those numbers on pump gas. Buschur had posted some really impressive results from the 4" Garrett core.

 

[sniperelite]

I would say go with the DV/DT Race FMIC

 

[99gst_racer]

Looks like a solid set-up, Keith.

You're going to love those cams.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Sounds like a good set up to me. Besides Dsmlink what else do you have or plan to have for fuel?

 

[kingjust]

This makes no sense, if the 44mm gate works fine for him at lower boost, he will have no issues running high boost. The lower the boost, the larger the WG required

Aren't the bigger wastegates better for finite control of boost? I mean the high boost levels a bigger opening can control boost better than a smaller diameter opening, don't you think? Correct me if i'm wrong!

 

[99gst_racer]

Aren't the bigger wastegates better for finite control of boost? I mean the high boost levels a bigger opening can control boost better than a smaller diameter opening, don't you think? Correct me if i'm wrong!

Darren has it right.

Think about the function of a wastegate, and it might make more sense.

A wastegate bypasses exhaust flow away from the turbine wheel to control boost output of the compressor. The lower your desired amount of boost pressure you want to run, the more the wastegate has to bypass. The more boost you want to run, the less the wastegate has to bypass.

Make sense?

 

[1992awdlaser]

Aren't the bigger wastegates better for finite control of boost? I mean the high boost levels a bigger opening can control boost better than a smaller diameter opening, don't you think? Correct me if i'm wrong!

At high boost there is less exhaust to bypass in order to control boost since more exhaust is going through the turbine housing. Because of this there is no reason to buy the biggest one you can find if a smaller one will control boost at lower boost levels where it will be bypassing more exhaust.

 

[kingjust]

Darren has it right.

Think about the function of a wastegate, and it might make more sense.

As wastegate bypasses exhaust flow away from the turbine wheel to control boost output of the compressor. The lower your desired amount of boost pressure you want to run, the more the wastegate has to bypass. The more boost you want to run, the less the wastegate has to bypass.

Make sense?

Yes it does, but i'm talking about control... because a 38mm wastegate cannot effectively control 45+ PSI with out possibly spiking or creeping, right? I understand the concept and logic of how it works, that's not the point I was making. If you read, I specifically stated a "finite control". Being that he will be moving upwards in the future, and low boost for him is around 30 pounds, that turbo will be able to push quite a bit more. And boost at that level, your tune has to be spot on and fluctuation in boost needs to be kept to a minimum if not any at all based off your tune.

Example, the smaller diameter of the valve opening and the valve itself generate more pressure against the opening making the WG, per se, work harder to control. But if you have a larger diameter WG opening, more exhaust gas can escape with the same if not less force because of the larger area of the valve opening and the valve itself. It's almost the same concept of haveing a 38mm flapper instead of the stock 34mm of internal WG's, just slightly different because of how external wastegate are designed.

I know I probably jacked up what I wanted to say, but I hope you guys can understand what I meant.

KJ

 

[kingjust]

At high boost there is less exhaust to bypass in order to control boost since more exhaust is going through the turbine housing. Because of this there is no reason to buy the biggest one you can find if a smaller one will control boost at lower boost levels where it will be bypassing more exhaust.

Yes... but at high boost levels, in the manifold, there is also high pressure levels in the turbine housing is there not? So do you think a smaller diameter WG would be able to control boost more "efficiently" and "effectively" then a larger diameter one?

KJ

 

[99gst_racer]

because a 38mm wastegate cannot effectively control 45+ PSI with out possibly spiking or creeping, right?

Not nessacerily. There are many, many other varibles that come into play, but it is possible for a smaller sized wastegate to effectivily control boost on a high PSI application.

Your understanding of limits of magnitude is correct, but you're still missing our point (which is the very concept of a wastegate).

If you read, I specifically stated a "finite control". Being that he will be moving upwards in the future, and low boost for him is around 30 pounds, that turbo will be able to push quite a bit more. And boost at that level, your tune has to be spot on and fluctuation in boost needs to be kept to a minimum if not any at all based off your tune.

Yes, if he chooses to run more boost pressure in the future, his wastegate will be working LESS. The valve will open later, and a lesser amount. It will be bypassing much less exhaust gas as apposed to when he was running less boost pressure.

Therefore, theoretically, he could use a smaller wastegate with high boost.
(please note: I'm not implying that a smaller gate is better for a high boost application - just that it IS possible)

Example, the smaller diameter of the valve opening and the valve itself generate more pressure against the opening making the WG, per se, work harder to control.

Wrong. The diameter of the valve does not come into play when regarding seat pressure of the valve. Spring rate, boost pressure, and exhaust pressure do though.

 

[92awddsm]

Why not look into some of the borg warner options? Honda guys seem to be having great success with those turbos.

Ive considered it but I think I want to stay in the garrett family.

Why the insistence on such low boost?

Another thing to look at would be the efficiency of your intercooling setup, which is even more important if you want to make those numbers on pump gas. Buschur had posted some really impressive results from the 4" Garrett core.

How much more boost do you expect me to run when on pump gas? No, Im not wasting the $ on meth injection because most the car will be run 98% of the time on c16 and very little on 93 pump.
And I am running a3.5" pte(IIRC) core.

Sounds like a good set up to me. Besides Dsmlink what else do you have or plan to have for fuel?

Only changes i will make to my current fuel system is the addition of an 044 inline and 1200cc injectors. The rest of the fuel system has been upgraded long ago.

Yes it does, but i'm talking about control... because a 38mm wastegate cannot effectively control 45+ PSI with out possibly spiking or creeping, right? I understand the concept and logic of how it works, that's not the point I was making. If you read, I specifically stated a "finite control". Being that he will be moving upwards in the future, and low boost for him is around 30 pounds, that turbo will be able to push quite a bit more. And boost at that level, your tune has to be spot on and fluctuation in boost needs to be kept to a minimum if not any at all based off your tune.

Example, the smaller diameter of the valve opening and the valve itself generate more pressure against the opening making the WG, per se, work harder to control. But if you have a larger diameter WG opening, more exhaust gas can escape with the same if not less force because of the larger area of the valve opening and the valve itself. It's almost the same concept of haveing a 38mm flapper instead of the stock 34mm of internal WG's, just slightly different because of how external wastegate are designed.

I know I probably jacked up what I wanted to say, but I hope you guys can understand what I meant.

KJ

The larger the wg, the harder it is to control boost on a high boost application. A 44mm or 46mm wg has more surface area and more likely to be blown open from manifold pressure which will cause boost fluctuations. A 38mm generally works well for high boost applications on small to mid size turbos.

 

[2gGSX]

It is also a trailer queen that may see 500 miles/yr on the street....I am shooting for high 500awhp-low600awhp on low boost(26-28psi, pump gas) and car is used for drag racing.

How much more boost do you expect me to run when on pump gas? No, Im not wasting the $ on meth injection because most the car will be run 98% of the time on c16 and very little on 93 pump.
And I am running a3.5" pte(IIRC) core.

That first statement seemed contradictory, especially given that the HTA88 was made for higher boost pressures. The choice makes much more sense with your clarification though.

If you want to stick with Garrett turbos, the closest alternatives are the 4094R and the small 42R. These two are more "proven", given the HTA35's performance over the standard 35R, the HTA88 might be your best choice.

 

[92awddsm]

That first statement seemed contradictory, especially given that the HTA88 was made for higher boost pressures. The choice makes much more sense with your clarification though.

If you want to stick with Garrett turbos, the closest alternatives are the 4094R and the small 42R. These two are more "proven", given the HTA35's performance over the standard 35R, the HTA88 might be your best choice.

I meant the car was primarily used for drag racing but does see some street time. I would like to see 600hp when on the street but would like to see more when on c16. That is the main reason why the 35r isnt appealing to me. It may get me to the power level Im looking for in street trim but its not going to suffice when the boost goes up and c16 is poured in. Im not going to save a few bucks for something that isnt going to meet my wants.

Im also trying to stick with the t3 housing at the moment so that is the reason Im not stepping up to a 40 or 42r right now. Maybe in a few years, I will go to a t4 setup but at the moment, its not in the budget nor do I need it to meet my current needs.

 

[92awddsm]

If you refuse to go T4, then the best turbo choice is obvious. HTA35R

It will get you to the high 500, low 600 WHP range that you are looking for. It will spool up quickly and you will have great boost response inbetween shifts.

But you know that T4 is the way to go. I have a T3 T67BB and I wish I didn't. It's a slow spooling BB turbo even on my stroker motor. I've tuned 2.0L GT42's that have similar spool characteristics as my T3 T67BB. A divided T4 turbo will greatly enhance the performance of a car and it's well worth the money. I will be going this route in the very near future.

Im not worried about transient response, I will be using nlts and the tranny in the car is a new shep stage 3.

You buy me a Shearer divided t4 manifold and an extra wg and I will go to a divided t4 housing. I will take care of the other costs incurred.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Does anybody know if this turbo can come oil cooled only?

 

[TheBoz]

I already have my FP88HTA installed. Saturday(4/5/08), I am off to get her tuned. The only down side for me is that my other motor is not ready, so I am running on a stock JDM Motor with HKS 272's and Head Studs. In about 3 weeks the other motor will go in.

On the stock block I am looking for about 500-550AWHP(or until it blows up), and about 650AWHP on the 2.0l Built motor. I will only go up to about 30-32psi on the stock block, but on the built one, I will try to take it all the way to 40-45psi. Stock motor I will rev to 8k, Built motor will go to 9500.

My Stock Setup
Stock Bottom End
Stock Composite Head Gasket
ARP Head Studs
HKS 272 Cams
Stock intake manifold
Tial 50mm BOV
Tial 44mm WG
FP88HTA

Fuel System
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump -6 lines
FIC 1000cc Injectors
AEM EMS
Wide Band

My Built Setup
Stock Crank w/ ACL Tri Metal Main Bearings
Eagle Rods w/ ACL Tri Metal Bearings
Ross 8.3:1 Pistons w/ Coated Tops and Sides
Head with Mild Exhaust Port
Stock Sized Valve
Crower Springs and Ti Retainers
HKS 272 Cams
ARP Head Studs
Stock Cam Gears
Stock Intake Manifold, I might switch to the JMF one
Stock Throttle Body

As soon as I have a dyno sheet and video i will post it up.

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[92awddsm]

I already have my FP88HTA installed. Saturday(4/5/08), I am off to get her tuned. The only down side for me is that my other motor is not ready, so I am running on a stock JDM Motor with HKS 272's and Head Studs. In about 3 weeks the other motor will go in.

On the stock block I am looking for about 500-550AWHP(or until it blows up), and about 650AWHP on the 2.0l Built motor. I will only go up to about 30-32psi on the stock block, but on the built one, I will try to take it all the way to 40-45psi. Stock motor I will rev to 8k, Built motor will go to 9500.

My Stock Setup
Stock Bottom End
Stock Composite Head Gasket
ARP Head Studs
HKS 272 Cams
Stock intake manifold
Tial 50mm BOV
Tial 44mm WG
FP88HTA

Fuel System
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump -6 lines
FIC 1000cc Injectors
AEM EMS
Wide Band

My Built Setup
Stock Crank w/ ACL Tri Metal Main Bearings
Eagle Rods w/ ACL Tri Metal Bearings
Ross 8.3:1 Pistons w/ Coated Tops and Sides
Head with Mild Exhaust Port
Stock Sized Valve
Crower Springs and Ti Retainers
HKS 272 Cams
ARP Head Studs
Stock Cam Gears
Stock Intake Manifold, I might switch to the JMF one
Stock Throttle Body

As soon as I have a dyno sheet and video i will post it up.

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Definately, post it up. I will probably order the turbo mid-next week as long as my funds look good. Unfortunately, due to work, I probably wont be able to have mine together and dynoed until sometime in July. my b-day is July 7 and I always throw a big party that weekend for me, 3 of my friends b-days(6th, 5th and 9th IIRC), and the 4th. This year, the party may just start at my local dyno.

And yes, all of my friends and b-day pals are also dsm guys/girls. They would enjoy seeing this.

 

[92awddsm]

I already have my FP88HTA installed. Saturday(4/5/08), I am off to get her tuned. The only down side for me is that my other motor is not ready, so I am running on a stock JDM Motor with HKS 272's and Head Studs. In about 3 weeks the other motor will go in.

On the stock block I am looking for about 500-550AWHP(or until it blows up), and about 650AWHP on the 2.0l Built motor. I will only go up to about 30-32psi on the stock block, but on the built one, I will try to take it all the way to 40-45psi. Stock motor I will rev to 8k, Built motor will go to 9500.

My Stock Setup
Stock Bottom End
Stock Composite Head Gasket
ARP Head Studs
HKS 272 Cams
Stock intake manifold
Tial 50mm BOV
Tial 44mm WG
FP88HTA

Fuel System
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump -6 lines
FIC 1000cc Injectors
AEM EMS
Wide Band

My Built Setup
Stock Crank w/ ACL Tri Metal Main Bearings
Eagle Rods w/ ACL Tri Metal Bearings
Ross 8.3:1 Pistons w/ Coated Tops and Sides
Head with Mild Exhaust Port
Stock Sized Valve
Crower Springs and Ti Retainers
HKS 272 Cams
ARP Head Studs
Stock Cam Gears
Stock Intake Manifold, I might switch to the JMF one
Stock Throttle Body

As soon as I have a dyno sheet and video i will post it up.

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This is a perfect example of why you cant judge the performance of a turbo just by looking at someones dyno sheet. We have 2 totally different setups and Im sure the outcome will be different between the 2. Granted, he does have AEM ems, I am taking a more aggressive approach to my build. I am really anxious to see what the outcome will be with both of us.