How much HP can my stock RS engine handle?

[Kirby]

I am very intrested to see a few things. #1 your dyno sheet. Not trying to bash you but your build will not yeild that much HP. 2. the timing chain system. I'd like to do that myself but you would have to custom make a water pump, cam gears, crankshaft, power stearing pump and more. that's alot of fabrication. 3. what are your final HP goals because those eagle rods will only hold up to 600-650 HP. 4. How does this TT setup work? 5. Howmuch are you paying for this buildup? And for the guy with $1500 Go with an AFX UDP also.

 

[Malenko]

how much does the Stage 5+ hahn kit cost? and how much did it cost to install?

 

[Super20G]

I dont know what hahn's prices are now, i think a smidge over 6 grand. Do yourself a favor and do all the labor yourself... Only thing you should have to pay for are parts and machine shop costs. I bought the car with a lot of work already done to it, so i ripped everything apart and reworked it so I"d know what I had and how it was done

 

[EvuLFleA]

Originally posted by Malenko
how much does the Stage 5+ hahn kit cost? and how much did it cost to install?

Stage 5 has so many extras that you really can't put a price on it becuase you just don't purchase it and be a real stage 5. Stage 5 you will be destroying axles with your power. You also get a stand-alone which will cost $$ to get tuned correct. Start off with a stage 2 or 3 if you can rebuild engines. After that if you need the 20G and stand alone go for it.

If you are really ghetto you can always do a 14B setup for around $1k like me

 

[MuRiX]

I have never read so much BS in a single place. Can someone raise a serious BS flag on any all motor 2.0l making 375hp or a 700hp tt 420a.

I will start by answering the original question so this does not go too far out of wack.

The stock internals can effectively handle 300hp with proper setup and tuning. There is of course variations to any of these numbers based on engine and condition and original build. The limitation is the stock pistons, not rods. The rods will make it closer to the 350hp mark and sometimes more. This has all been tested and proven. So far no reports of broken cranks and people have managed to reach the 600hp level on them using stock motors with only new pistons and rods for the bottom end.

If you are going all motor, do not bother with the bottom end. You will not break it and not worth the cost of the work. Focus on the top end. New cams, headwork, revised ecu for higher redline. This is where you will find any power.

If you are going turbo, well just be careful with boost on a stock bottom end. The average I know of that people are pushing on sotck bottom ends with turbos is in the 200-220fwhp range which is a safe range to be in.

Now to Mr I can answer any question and my car which does not exist with the stuff I am talking about so I am bench racing and have no real world experience but actually believe I will make 375hp out of a non turbo 2.0l:

I think the most offensive statement I read in this thread is the 'we are all new at this' statement. Scary to think you actually believe that. If you had just done a little bit of research you would realize that is, well wrong. I would like to think the fact people have already put 420A's in the low 9's on a turbo and low 11's on just the motor means that we have already passed the initial learning phase.

I did not read the whole thread. It has made my head hurt.

I predict you will make no more than 190-200fwhp on just motor, if you are LUCKY, and that is probably too generous. Do you honestly believe you guys are the first to come up with the brilliant idea of building up a 420A? Where do you think people are getting these numbers?

I SERIOUSLY doubt you know someone with a twin turbo 420A. Nothing else to say on that one. I am laughing too much right now.

You actually listed NOTHING other than headwork that will make you any serious power. You are putting a lot of faith in just headwork. Building an engine for turbo and non-turbo applications is completely different stuff and you do not randomnly go out of your way to do both.

Our cranks are already edged stocked. Lowering compression does cost you power. Out stock cams suck and need help for any hope of top end. The stock rev limiter will stop you after that.

My recommendation is to make sure you properly understood your engine builder and if you did find a new one.

For those of you asking what to do, start simple. Plunging into it all at once is a terrible idea. Ask Brad or anyone else who has gone through it. Learn everything you do as you go and do not get ahead of yourself. You will be much happier if you do. Otherwise expect to be without your car for long periods of time. Not worth it.

Check out a few other sites if you want to see where you can go with this.

The best being www.2gnt.com of course. Also look at www.armond30.com if you want to see what we have personally done with the 420A.

 

[992gnt]

Chris you got me rollin'. Talk about a subtle reality check. This thread is the funniest thing I've read in a while. More power from a .020 overbore??? Good stuff!

 

[lo eclipz]

ok for one thing i said these numbers werent my numbers, so back off. And his eclipse also has .020" overbore, i am not claiming this is my power mod. the 375 is crank hp, but whp is much lower. I have done all my research probaly more than you, i am just now getting in to apply it. either way my mechanic builds these for a living and races them, so he knows what he is doing and that is where the numbers come from meaning the 300whp, he has built this before and dynoed them, he has had these numbers before, without putting it on a dyno he could already tell what roughly yhe numbers were going to be. but either way, if the numbers are way below 300, then i will admit that he was wrong, but i really dont know whats gonna come of it. From the same builder, one of his customers has a 420a powered twin turbo, now come on thats not to hard to believe, for you non believers, at least i heard it was somewhere up in the 600-700range, you and me can doubt it, which i do, but thaTS WHAT HE SAID.

 

[lo eclipz]

and whats the crap about me being able to answer any question about stuff that doesnt exist, yes i can answer alot of questions that are asked about the 2gnt and maybe so can you, i do smart small and give people advice, i dont tell them they are gonna get the numbers we say or to do what i did, just the general stuff that i know, and what to do when, i know a decent amount about the engine and what it can do. So again just like the rest of the people bashing me, lay off, i am getting tired, the numbers could be wrong or not, get off me and express the opinion about the numbers being wrong, thats it, move on. You cant say i dont know anything just because you disagree wkith the numbers.

 

[lo eclipz]

another thing, why is putting a single turbo on a 420a like nothing special, but a twin turbo makes you laugh so hard, thats easy. and the car is being built for the sole purpose of turbo and nitrous. So i dont know how you going about me going both ways, when i am not, thaTS why i am lowering the compression, for the turbo in a while. I am building it so it will handle alot of power and do it reliable. So the build of the engine to take alot of power and psi is the goal, whatever number comes from my engine build isnt really important, just getting the build done right for the addition of turbo is the main and only goal.

 

[420aVenger]

Originally posted by lo eclipz
whatever number comes from my engine build isnt really important, just getting the build done right for the addition of turbo is the main and only goal.

Are you starting to doubt yourself? Starting to realize that your numbers will never happen? It's a good idea to draw attention away from your claims

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[lo eclipz]

i never said my numbers were important and when you started to bash me i also told you i dont think of those numbers, no one thinks that high, but thats what he said, so go back and read more, so nothing has changed.

 

[420aVenger]

When I was the only one telling you you're numbers were way off you said that I had no common sense and acted like I had no idea what I was talking about. THEN when everyone else said the same thing as me you started to believe them and start to downplay your numbers.

 

[lo eclipz]

i am still not down playing the numbers and you were bashing me about it, i dont care if you disagree and i still hope that the numbers will be that high, the way you were doing it thyat was stupid, not you disagreeing with the numbers, i am tired of people bashing me about what the mechanic said, i am only on here to talk with other dsm people and the like and to exchange info and have a good time, but not get bashed the hell out of, because no body believes the numbers my builder said, but hey who cares, i only believe him because he has built these before. the only way anybody can say i am so far off, is if they had my particular engine and are doing the mods i am doing with the exact parts i have and doing the machining the way i am doing, like i already said, but i guess no body cares, they enjoy bashing to much, i dont mind when people disagree with me and then move on, most people are i think you off and hope to see what it actually does, and thats it, but you and a few others are persistant enough to make my head hurt. just disagree

 

[mitsucar4]

The reason everyone is taking a whack is because even after telling you the potential of the n/a 420a, you insisted that you're mechanic was telling you the truth. And you stuck to your guns till the end. I think if you could get 300whp out of a n/a engine, most of these guys on this board would have taken that route a long time ago. I mean the 420a has been out for over seven years now.

And the story about the TT 420a, I think he's not all that truthful. There was an article about a TT 420a (I don't have the link but I'll post it once I find it) And it was nowhere near the 600 range. I do remember the article saying he had an extremely difficult time tuning it. But he did it to be different. IMO it would be better just to have a single turbo setup over a TT.

 

[lo eclipz]

all i am saying is that no one knows how much whp a certain mod or machine process will do, but generally maybe all are the same. but the tt 420a was what i heard. either way that doesnt mean anything to me. the numbers are what is said, i dont know any of you and i know him better. So thats why i believe him over you guys. But to be fair and you guys do make sense on some things after explaining your selves, i will expect the 200whp level from the build and hope that he his truthful in his numbers, if his is right then we will all be suprised, but i believe you guys, i just didnt want to believe it after he says it, but we'll see.

 

[EvuLFleA]

If you are going to get 8.8:1 compression and go all-motor until you build your turbo kit than I really don't see any numbers over 160WHP.

Have you seen any 420A dyno charts? The average gains from your BPU upgrades are like 5-20hp. Houston 2gnt had a dyno day in which the only turbo car got over 300WHP and the 3 all-motor guys struggled to get 125WHP. All were modded with a decent amount of mods. If you ran 12.5:1 compression highly tuned I can see 180+hp but thats about it.

If the guy is so positive about the gains have him sign a guarantee

 

[MuRiX]

The problem I see is you are convinced that your engine guy is doing something special for you when I have not seen anything mentioned that is not normal. I appreciate you have faith in him as he has your engine, but it does not make him an expert with it and it does not mean you should instantly quote anything he tells you until you have factually proof. Again we call that bench racing.

The major problem is the dynamics of the size of the engine in the first place. A 2.0l of any make has yet to put down the numbers that you are hoping for that I am aware. Consider something real world example like an S2000. The fact it only dynos low 200's with all the engineering Honda has put into it and they have to rev the snot out of it to 9krpm where as you will not be able to pass 7300 unless you sort out the fuel cut and then you will run into the spark cut at 7800. A full standalone is the normal answer to get by these or a reprogram of your ecu.

Machine processes do not make power. I am not even sure if I understand that statement? An overbore is an unstated required job for using JE pistons, or any for that matter, due to their contraction/expansion. Balancing and blueprinting does provide some power as well as a little bit from the overbore, but you are losing it all again by running lower compression. It is not large number we are talking here.

The major power adder would be from a properly designed head and properly matched cams with a raised redline to take advantage of it all. This will still not give you the power you have been told.

I think the safe money is on EvulFlea guess of 160fwhp.

As for the twin turbo 420A, a twin turbo inline 4 seems a waste to me. It is doable, but not worth it which I could explain but not necessary as I have to leave now.

 

[curtis_rak]

Murix,

Well arent you the hero of the freaking day. Your first post, which, correct me if I'm wrong, was to set the record straight was nothing more than a regurgitation of the "BS" that was already stated.

We know about the bottom end and its capabilities. We know what lowering compression does, and why we would do it. The list goes on and on. How is your "headache" anyway?

And btw, can you guys give lo_eclipz a break already. So he fu*ked up on his HP numbers. So what? Lay off and say something constructive. Don't get all piss pants and stupid about everything. Correct someones mistake and let it go. I thought it was awesome that Ludachris even made this a sticky, so can we get serious here? N/A owners/tuners already get a hard time from Turbo-ers about our cars...lets all just get along, be adults and not make fools of ourselves.

 

[lo eclipz]

a couple of things, yes alot of you guys know what you are doing thru experience and so forth, some do not. I know a decent amount, but not the actual gains of the parts via no experience. But saying the numbers i heard about my build that came from either the mechanic or my brother, not my own opinion isnt bench racing, claiming the numbers are my opinion withoutm knowledge is bench racing. The last few people have really shed some light on this, because almost no one knows anything about the 420a. The few people who know about these things and know where to get parts should kep in touch, makes things easier. Little change in plans, we are going 10:1 .040" for now, then i will change them when i go turbo eventually.

 

[lo eclipz]

i also know about the pros and cons of turbo, so the tt 420a i was refering to was just what i heard.

 

[Super20G]

Hey, Chris a.k.a. Murix, is just trying to straighten this mess out with factual information. Don't get on him for pointing out what needed to be said. Inexperienced people spit out too much sh!t thats way off base, and that whp and tt 4 bangers and sh!t is part of what I am talking about, atleast there is someone like Chris around to correct you/us when we're wong, so others dont read the thread and try to go out and "easily" make a NA monster cause this kid did.

 

[lo eclipz]

you guys still arent getting the point that you dont know what i am building, but the numbers you have gotten from your builds make sense, but what the heck are you saying about tt 4 bangers, lay off thats easy why is that sh%t, and the whp number i got wasnt mine, so dont get on me about the bs from another person, or even miscommunication between me and hime and my brother, my brother has the car down where he lives, so everything i do is thru him and the mechanic, so if the numbers are completely bs then my brother was lying, so you can layoff now, the numbers arent mine and havent been and the tt 420a exists and has been done before, so call me bs on that.

 

[curtis_rak]

This thread now officially sucks.

My last post obviously went completely unnoticed and nothing has changed. The thread has gone for sh*t.

Off to the howell automotive forum I go.....

Later guys

 

[twiste]

Just in case anyone on here gets tired of hearing people pretending like they know what they are talking about come join Murix, 420Avenger, Super20G, Evulflea, 1tuffrs and the rest of us over at the 2gnt message board. That is the place to go if you would like to learn everything you can about the 420a motor and how to make it go fast, N/A or turbo. These guys over here will be able to help you with anything you need, guarunteed. We all know our Sh*t over there, so come and join!

http://www.2gnt.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi

 

[EvuLFleA]

You should really listen to Murix btw. You said you know "all about the bottom end/capabilites etc...". If you know so much you should know what YOU are doing to your engine and not listen to BS statements from some mechanic. Murix is probably sporting over 400hp. Him and Armond (www.armond30.com) do everything themselves. They are probably some of the smartest people around if you want to know about your 420A. You should really listen to this guy since he WILL help you and correct you when you are wrong.