1G High Horsepower with Low Octane Availability in Montana. Blueprinting Help Please!

[Dashnizzle]

In my area, I am currently probably the FURTHEST away from any E85 and 93 octane in the country. Yay me.

This puts a damper on my blueprinting process for the car I am building, and I am seeking help and assurance that my goals are within realistic expectations.

See below from the https://afdc.energy.gov/ e85 locator .

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Aaaaaaand 93 octane locator:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Research:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/tuned-for-93-octane-but-moving-to-91-only-area.476228/

oh and heres a very reassuring thread:

https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/knock-on-91-tune-with-110-octane.507680/

Across the board i am seeing 'turn down boost, and 'I'm seeing knock'
This is not what I intend to bend my knee to, I'm too stubborn.

My 500HP dreams are just that after seeing this. Dreams.

With that being said, I WILL be using Methanol injection to help some of that octane rating along with the other benefits it provides.
This is not a daily driver, just the weekend and fun car, ya know? This grants me options to source fuel or additive potentially, but doesn't appeal to me in case I want to take a road trip and need to rely on the 91 nectar.

Basically I need to achieve high power with good drivability/spool to make any of this worth the investment.

Turbo choice as of now would be FP Green with 57 lb/min and of course they say rated for upwards of 540 HP but I must take that with a grain of salt because of my fuel availability. I also prefer to not have to wait until 4500RPM to build max boost, If I went with something larger. On 91 octane, I'm really stuck here too.

My 6 Bolt engine will be rebuilt (pistons, rods, cams, everything), all supporting mods etc. etc. I just bought ECMlink yesterday, I am performing maintenance on the mostly stock car getting it ready for the future plans. I'm putting a lot of time and money into this is what I'm trying to get at here.

My questions:
In my shoes, what would you do to your build to compensate for the octane deficiency and still achieve an extremely fun to drive and powerful ~~500hp car? Slow spoolers are out of the question for me.

Would some variant of a stroker help with extra displacement?
Should I ditch planning around 91 and find a way to get e85 magically or bust?

Thanks in advance guys.
Dash


1991 Galant VR-4 #88/2000

 

[DSMPT]

That's about $4 per gallon then. That is really cheap. Our ordinary pump gas here lately is about $4 per gallon.

Yes it's cheap. I think that's why here many racers run straight methanol rather than race gas.

 

[DSMPT]

What would a good target static compression ratio be in relation to this topic?

If with 91 gas, I would stay between 8.5 and 9 low and raise boost instead, like @1990TSIAWDTALON Marty said above.

 

[We're on Boost]

What would a good target static compression ratio be in relation to this topic?

Just for another data point on the basic compression ratio question:
When my engine was being planned, I didn't know what I wanted for compression ratio. But I told Lucas that I would be running on straight 92 octane pump gas some of the time, and that I wanted to be able to make ~500 whp on straight 92 octane. So Lucas said, ok, let's make yours a 9:1 compression ratio.
I was also willing to use a larger turbo though (HTA 3582) and that makes it a lot easier to make a high hp number on pump gas. In the end it only needed 25 psi of boost to make 500 whp on 92 octane.

But it spools later - boost onset comes at higher rpm than what you would probably want, due to the larger turbo. That's when starting from low revs. If the revs are already up, say 4,500, and then I step on it, the blast of thrust and SPL is pretty much immediate!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

7.8:1 to 8.5:1 plus boost will help in any knock issues that might come up.
That is only my opinion and what I do for the rare few people that want a 4g63 motor build.
My personal motors range from a stock compression (7.8:1) E85 ready full motor to a 10:1 DEFINITELY an E85 motor with a 9.1:1 motor in my fun auto car. The high compression helps make HP but you must have adequate fuel to do it. The low compression motor will handle 9-12* timing on 91 pump in my experiences. The E85 motors run more timing for more HP.
I have "thought" about doing some E85 tuning on our SBC build but haven't tried it yet. It DOES yield hidden HP.
Marty

 

[Dashnizzle]

I'll chime in for a second then jump back out.
When I was running my 20g setup on my 10:1 motor, the Boost Juice "helped" but was not the cure all to what kind of monster I had built. It allowed me a few more degrees of timing from 5 to maybe 9 but when I went up to the Holset frame turbo setup along with E85, the whole thing LOVED it. It is really a super fast and fun car. I think the increase was totally from the ethanol and even more timing (15-17*) for getting the most out of my motors. If you have 91 like we do here in Kansas, the water/meth injection will help, just know you have more if you can go flex fuel as has been mentioned. My car is setup for it and I just pull up and fill up and the maps all adjust for less octane and they lower timing and adjust fuel a little. Its a really nice option and my cars have the "Flex Fuel" emblems on the back of them. In our cars, thats means "watch out" .
Marty
Note: Current E85 price here is $2.75/gallon and thats highway robbery!!!

I love the badge! What a subtle FLEX.

Ha. Get it?
Flex.


ha

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

All 3 of my DSMs have that badge

 

[dustyboner]

it looks like you can get e85 in Great Falls,
you just need to buy it 500 gallons at a time.


https://moffittservices.com/

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Dashnizzle]

it looks like you can get e85 in Great Falls,
you just need to buy it 500 gallons at a time.


https://moffittservices.com/

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I’ll start my go fund me right away.

 

[danl]

With those requirements, I would be looking at running primary and secondary fuel systems. Run the stock injectors for your primary and stage the larger secondary injectors in with high octane race fuel to come on at 0-5psi. I'd recommend race gas because it is more predictable and can last a long time in storage, unlike ethanol and methanol. There are many engine management systems that can run staged injection like this.

The negatives are the additional cost and complexity.

 

[Dashnizzle]

With those requirements, I would be looking at running primary and secondary fuel systems. Run the stock injectors for your primary and stage the larger secondary injectors in with high octane race fuel to come on at 0-5psi. I'd recommend race gas because it is more predictable and can last a long time in storage, unlike ethanol and methanol. There are many engine management systems that can run staged injection like this.

The negatives are the additional cost and complexity.

Danl, thanks for the Input.

just curious, what do you mean when you say the race gas is more predictable? I’m assuming you mean the octane level is consistent when you buy it unlike ethanol?
As someone mentioned before the flex fuel system can detect ethanol level and to me, as long as the sensors are acting correctly, that should be just as predictable.

To go through the trouble of having secondary injectors I feel like I might as well be running NOS at that point.

 

[danl]

My current 1G is a flex fuel car, running on DSMLink V3. This is a great option if you can get ahold of ethanol fuel when you want to have power.

The problem I've had with ethanol is that it does not age well, it has a finite shelf life. Race gas is much longer, on the order of years whereas ethanol is on the order of months.

With methanol/ethanol based fuels, they do not respond like gasoline. You need to know how to tune on them.If you are not experienced owning an E85 car (or methanol injection car) then race gas is safer. That is what I mean by unpredictability.

 

[Dashnizzle]

My current 1G is a flex fuel car, running on DSMLink V3. This is a great option if you can get ahold of ethanol fuel when you want to have power.

The problem I've had with ethanol is that it does not age well, it has a finite shelf life. Race gas is much longer, on the order of years whereas ethanol is on the order of months.

With methanol/ethanol based fuels, they do not respond like gasoline. You need to know how to tune on them.If you are not experienced owning an E85 car (or methanol injection car) then race gas is safer. That is what I mean by unpredictability.

Fair enough! I don’t plan on tuning my car because I know someone out there can do it better than I can. That being said, I agree with everything you said