HE351VE Manifold Development

[casuprock]

This thread is a branch from the VTG controller development thread to document manifold development for the HE351VE.
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In mock fitment on my car it looks like one place for it is immediately in front of the engine on the drivers side and run a civic/half radiator. My radiator is rear mounted so I don't have that problem.

A possibility is needing support by a frame bracket somewhere because of the housing mass. Engine movement should be considered here, but flex pipe is probably a bad option.

The pipe going into the flange on the 351VE may have to enter at an angle with respect to the housing. The housing casting has a direction change in the inlet neck that will create a minor pressure drop if the incoming exhaust isn't already traveling in that direction.

The wastegate should branch off the collected tube as a 'Y' to prevent minor losses

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The goal here is to produce the best possible manifold for this turbo. 92awdgsx is a master welder who will be advising on the design of this manifold. All questions about fabrication/welding can be deferred to his expertise. Engineering design (CAD/analysis) will be done by casuprock and kthackst. Everyone's input is requested.

 

[bastarddsm]

This is going to be great.

 

[knochgoon24]

I want to see how you pull this off. IIRC, the turbo weighs in the neighborhood of 45lbs.

 

[airmail96]

Yup 47 pounds, I would brace the crap out of the manifold .

 

[casuprock]

Sure, she's got Marilyn Monroe hips, but not quite a Rosie O'Donnell. There is a thick cast exhaust down pipe piece that usually connects to the V-flange on these. It's huge. That might be the difference. The exhaust housing casting weighs 20lb.

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Going with aluminum engine mounts would cut down the movement and may allow a solid brace to the frame. Otherwise, a brace could exploit an unused tapped hole in the block.

I did some experiments earlier this year with refractory composites that have possible applications for manifold design. Here's a picture of a carbon fiber/zirconia composite tube. This can be formed into complex shapes and is really good with thermal shock. The problem is bonding to steel and different thermal expansion coefficient that rules it out as an option for manifold runners.

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[92awdgsx]

There will need to be some major bracing going on. Kevin said you wanted to do a forward facing long runner manifold. If so, I'm thinking you will need to do an expansion slip joint on the runners to get it in and out easy. Are you planning on doing smaller diameter runners to keep the velocity up?

 

[casuprock]

There will need to be some major bracing going on. Kevin said you wanted to do a forward facing long runner manifold. If so, I'm thinking you will need to do an expansion slip joint on the runners to get it in and out easy. Are you planning on doing smaller diameter runners to keep the velocity up?

Yeah I was planning on doing smaller diam runners with minimal bends to keep velocity up ~1.375" (not sure yet). What pipe diameters are available to you in stainless?

I don't have a front end on my car- no radiator, no PS pump, no AC, no frame in front. However, we should try and conform to Kevin's car, at most with a half-radiator, so that the design is applicable to other people, not just Kevin and I.

 

[1990AWD]

In mock fitment on my car it looks like one place for it is immediately in front of the engine on the drivers side and run a civic/half radiator. My radiator is rear mounted so I don't have that problem.

It would be best if you could make a manifold that allows one to keep a full size radiator and fans, since the real point of running this turbo would be for a street application. If it wasn't for a street car, the reduced turbo lag of the VGT wouldn't matter.

 

[kthackst]

It would be best if you could make a manifold that allows one to keep a full size radiator and fans, since the real point of running this turbo would be for a street application. If it wasn't for a street car, the reduced turbo lag of the VGT wouldn't matter.

Common sense just entered the room. haha

Chris, Brian this guy has a point

 

[m1nd64m3]

What about using the bracket that comes off the block in the front towards the timing belt side, where the stock downpipe bolts to the block for support. I know a lot of people ditch this bracket, but the holes are still there and you could make a custom bracket that mounts to the original mounting points.

 

[casuprock]

Excellent points, keep room for the radiator. Otherwise who is going to buy manifolds and controllers?

Kevin, you're right about top mounting for a street application.

What about using the bracket that comes off the block in the front towards the timing belt side, where the stock downpipe bolts to the block for support. I know a lot of people ditch this bracket, but the holes are still there and you could make a custom bracket that mounts to the original mounting points.

That's a great idea.

 

[92awdgsx]

It would be best if you could make a manifold that allows one to keep a full size radiator and fans, since the real point of running this turbo would be for a street application. If it wasn't for a street car, the reduced turbo lag of the VGT wouldn't matter.

This is what I wanted to do on Kevin's car. Don't think there will be room to do a topmount like that. I know what kind of room there is with a topmount and 42R, this turbine is even bigger. We will see what kind of room there is. 1 1/4" is the popular size for a small runner manifold VS. 1 1/2".

 

[knochgoon24]

I don't know about the need to keep a full size radiator. I think it's a fair sacrifice to run a half size one if you want this turbo. If you get a 14" puller and a 14" pusher fan for the half rad, you shouldn't overheat.

 

[airmail96]

The guy I bought my setup off of was running a full size in his car, I plan to be running one in my car with 2 12in pushers.

 

[casuprock]

I'm going to run a brace from the engine block. A good place to connect this is the flange that bolts up to the exhaust housing. This is WGMT or something odd like that and I want to connect my brace so I'll just machine a custom flange. I measured the orifice on the exhaust housing and made this draft.

Here are the cad files if anyone wants to do a better job... so no whining people!

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The 'handle' with the M8 bolt holes is where the brace will bolt up to the flange.

 

[airmail96]

Looks like a pretty nice design.

 

[97gst_spyder]

There is an unused M10 or M12 threaded hole on the front of the block where the factory dp is connected to the block that could be used.

 

[bastarddsm]

Any progress on this flounder of a project there Spartacus?

 

[casuprock]

Any progress on this flounder of a project there Spartacus?

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[LandoAWD]

Got a post report, but noticed a jovial response the the reported post. If the OP has an issue with any comment(s), please PM me.

 

[casuprock]

Any progress on this flounder of a project there Spartacus?

Hey, instead of haunting my posts, can you help me? I think you said you did work with A2W before. I built a temperature controller that could be useful for flushing A2W intercoolers that use a pump & ice reservoir or running a cooling fan independent of the main rad fans. It also could be useful for controlling intercooler spray pumps based on core temp versus air temp. PM me if you're interested in testing or building something with it.

 

[bastarddsm]

Probably not. The only thing I'm involved in right now with a air to water ic is the pull truck. Last year we just turned on the pump when the run began. Next year we are going to have the ecu kick on the pump once it starts making boost.

If I were putting one on my car I'd probably have the ecu run it too. Same deal kick it on when there is boost.

 

[92awdgsx]

Chris, I'm going to try 1 1/2" runners on Kevin's topmount and see how the turbine reacts to it. If the idea is to keep a normal radiator, probably going to have to be a normal tubular manifold. We are going to be doing some measurements here soon now that we have a turbo here.

 

[casuprock]

Chris, I'm going to try 1 1/2" runners on Kevin's topmount and see how the turbine reacts to it. If the idea is to keep a normal radiator, probably going to have to be a normal tubular manifold. We are going to be doing some measurements here soon now that we have a turbo here.

This is starting to get interesting. Someone should post pics of your work on here as the fabrication unfolds.

I have a lot more room up front than Kevin's car so I'll take some pictures and send them to you. I have room for longer runners so that's likely what I'll end up doing. I might need some aluminum IC piping welded at some point also. I have work to do finishing up my electrical system before anything so I'll get it running nice with the FPT28 before I slap on the 351VE- Per Kevin's good advice.

 

[kthackst]

Chris, I'm going to try 1 1/2" runners on Kevin's topmount and see how the turbine reacts to it. If the idea is to keep a normal radiator, probably going to have to be a normal tubular manifold. We are going to be doing some measurements here soon now that we have a turbo here.

I thought we were going 1-1/4"?