HE351VE Controller Project

[knochgoon24]

I almost have my setup done but I'm having trouble getting my stepper driver working properly. I damaged the OEM stepper during disassembly, so I had to use a different motor and an adapter. Oops.

 

[Morphius]

It's $625, plus a 250 to 300 dollar turbo. So for under a grand you could get the setup. Doesn't sound that bad to me.

I get what you're saying, but the inital price of the turbo shouldn't be part of the equation on pricing for their product. It's like charging you for a electronic boost controller and giving you a manual one.

If you guys haven't noticed. The price of those turbos has already doubled from what they sold for 3 years ago. Let's say they go to $1000/turbo, which I have seen already. Who's going to pony up a additional $625 for a controller? I'd say, not too many dsmer's let alone anyone else.

Being realistic, I think some people, like they did with Holsets in general in the beginning, think they are just going to bolt this turbo on and plug in the controller and they'll run 10's or 9's. Not the case. Even with the methods which people have chosen to control this to date, there is yet to be anyone that's laid down any crazy times that they couldn't do the same with a non vgt turbo.

I hope the OP comes up with a good solution, while at the same time, it's cost effective. If you negate the extra motor and adapter, there's like $50 in hardware there. Personally, from what I've seen out there, I don't think you need to go to a custom board. There are already off the shelf boards, with equal capability that are prebuilt. Do I expect to get the OP's solution for $100? No, but at the same time, I'm not expecting to pay $400 for it either. Anyway, just my thoughts.

 

[knochgoon24]

What board is this that you speak of? Fleece has had this standalone controller in the works for quite some time (2yrs+). I didn't think it's out yet, and I don't see it on their site.

My controller is still far cheaper than $625, and that's with me buying daughter/breakout boards with each major chip on one so I don't have to figure out all the little details.

I may still end up going back to he stock motor if this one won't take the heat. I really wanted to use the OEM one, but I damaged it.

 

[floader]

It's on the fleece site in the electronics section.

As far as $1000 being too much, I think it is not. I would not compare a setup like this to your typical "budget" Holset build (like mine). And you really can't compare it to the standard turbo's that flow in this range either, as they are lag monsters. I look at a setup like this as a advancement in the over all tech of turbo hot rods and I am more than willing to pay...... if it works

 

[knochgoon24]

That's not a full standalone controller. It still connects to the trucks ECU to get data.

HE351 Turbo Controller
This is our Holset HE Series VGT turbo controller for Cummins equipped vehicles 98.5 - 2005. This module must be connected to the 3 pin datalink on the aforementioned years to function.

 

[Morphius]

The standalone controller isn't listed on the site (not sure why), but if you call them they have them.

 

[bastarddsm]

Someone has had one out for a while as a retrofit for older mechanical trucks.

I played around with a duramax turbo on my car and used the 1g ecu to run it. Yeah it spooled pretty quick, but its a pain in the ass. They idea of this vgt stuff for our cars would be the drivability, well they are so damn big that it won't fit easily, and starts becoming counter productive.

 

[92awdgsx]

Kevin and I just got a controller and motor setup. I'm going to finish making the manifold and hopefully soon we can start doing the install on this.

 

[knochgoon24]

Apparently, Nate from TPG tuning is currently working with someone on an electronic VGT setup. I just got my new stepper driver in. So it looks like there will be several people with several different setups to compare here pretty soon.

 

[1990AWD]

Is the HE351 a T3 or T4 divided?

 

[bastarddsm]

Niether. Its an oddball flange. It will need to be custom made.

 

[1990AWD]

ah damn.

 

[casuprock]

Hi guys, it's been a while... work has been epic lately. How come cash flow never seems to catch up to work load? There has to be some law of physics...

To see others working on this is great, I'm excited to see what comes out of this project.

Having tested the electronics on the first revision, there were some minor changes that needed to be made. The first was moving the pressure sensor onto the controller. This was done because everyone runs a different pressure sensor and it would be nightmarish to find calibrations for the different pressure sensors on the market. Better off just running a vacuum line to the controller.

The other modifications were condensation of the board size and reduction of the bill of materials. We switched from the UC3B processors to the XMEGA processors because of less decoupling caps and the XMEGA running USB without an external crystal. In other words, we reduced parts count and made it less expensive.

Guess what else we fit on here? An input for MAF signal. That means it *should* collect enough information (pressures, temperatures, flow, shaft speed) required to plot a compressor map. So, this project is becoming applicable for more than just VGT controller. It's evolving into sort of a little USB "turbo laboratory". Yes it is little- about 2.5"x1.6" hah.

This is the controller revision that we will use for testing. It will be assembled in the next week. I think Friday/Saturday next week we'll be discussing fitment with this giant turbo in a 2G without modifying the frame- quite a puzzle- but it should be done so other people can use this turbo. 92awdgsx will finish the manifold and then we get to go break things!

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[knochgoon24]

Very clean. Much more elegant than my electronics setup.

Did you use one of those pressure sensors I mentioned? Just a heads up, but they don't have barbs and may be a bit tricky to get a hose to stay on them. But a tiny zip tie looks like it should be just enough to get it to hold.

 

[GST95]

Although its a cool feature, Id like to suggest that you dont make the controller dependent on a mas signal to work correctly. Quite a few people are switching to speed density and those people will not have a mas signal to feed it. Also, those people that arent running speed density are not all running the same mas, so that would also probably need to be figured into the issue.

 

[knochgoon24]

Good luck running speed density with the VE constantly changing due to the VGT.

 

[GST95]

I dont want this to turn into a big debate. Im not going to speculate and I could be totally wrong, but I have a feeling that once the controller dials in its tables that the VE will be fairly predictable. It wont matter if its not always the same as long as its consistent. Obviously if it isnt consistent you will have a lot of issues running speed density, but if it gets to the point of being consistent or can be forced into a permanent open loop type of state at some point, there will be minimal problems doing so. Do whatever you want, I was just making a suggestion of a potential issue.

Also, there is still the issue of everybody not running the same mas. Those people running a maft would also have a skewed reading that would probably rule out having a selectable 1g/2g/evo type of correction.

 

[knochgoon24]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to run SD with this (so much cleaner w/o the MAS) but depending on the control method, I see potential to hit the same boost and rpm with very different VGT positions. But we'll see. I'll be keeping track of the "virtual SD MAF Hz" in my logs. I'd love not having a 3" MAF as a restriction before a 4" intake pipe.

 

[wicked93GS]

Just wondering what the status on this project is. I have been eyeing one of these turbos for awhile now. As far as the contoller goes can it run off an external MAF signal? My car is SD and the ecu doesnt use MAF...but I suppose its really just a 0-5v potentiometer right?

 

[ed1380]

This is for the guy that needs a 60+lb/min turbo to provide some usable boost around the exit of an apex at a traction modulated 2500-3500rpm. Not for a guy who spends all of their 9-10 seconds of time on the track above 5000rpm.

Too bad those guys barely have any room to fit a turbo that size plus all the radiators

 

[knochgoon24]

That was my problem, or I'd have mine in my car. I'm now looking a redoing the whole radiator support so I can move both the a/c condenser and a full size radiator forward enough for everything to clear.

 

[wicked93GS]

I use megasquirt these days. I suppose I can add a MAF back into the system if I have to purely for the ability to usethis turbo(MS does now have a MAF option)anyway...just hoping for an update on the controller

 

[GST95]

Oh, I suppose it is possible you could program the VGT to stay exactly at a certain position at every rpm breakpoint in order to tune using SD, but that totally defeats the purpose of having VGT in the first place. You want VGT if you need to improve spool from cruise and boost recovery after shifting. This technology benefits road racers much more than it benefits a drag racer. This is for the guy that needs a 60+lb/min turbo to provide some usable boost around the exit of an apex at a traction modulated 2500-3500rpm. Not for a guy who spends all of their 9-10 seconds of time on the track above 5000rpm.

That is one setup that would benefit from this controller, but not the only one. It is also your opinion and not necessarily a fact. Its also not the only setup or platform for that matter that could benefit from this controller or a VGT turbo in general. It would be a shame if this thread turned into who or how somebody should be using this rather than people suggesting ways of making this more flexible in order for more people to be able to use it which would broaden the potential market for the end product to make a profit. IMHO, pigeonholing your customer base for this product into only specifically dsm manual tranny road racers would not be a good idea from a business standpoint.

 

[delta448]

GST95, what you've insinuated wasn't really what I meant. I agree with what you said for the most part. I was mainly trying to elaborate on the answer to the SD tuning question.

The only thing I don't think we agree on is who's going to use this and why. Yes, I can see a few drag racers having great success with this, I just can't see it becoming an extremely popular turbo choice for hard core drag racing. With a compressor the same size as an HX40, this turbine has already been shown to still build boost even with the vanes all the way open, so you still need a wastegate. This compressor has also been proven capable of horsepower and ET marks that will put a car into the "serious drag racer" category in my opinion. As well, spool is almost irrelevant on a car that only sees the drag strip, where the engine spends 90% of it's time at an rpm that would allow full boost on a larger turbo.

With the example I gave, I said "benefits road racers much more than drag racers". That's all I was saying, not that it couldn't be used on a drag car.

Where this will be popular is with the all-around guys who drive their cars on the street, at an autocross, AND at the drag strip. Which is probably the vast majority of us on this site. Like you said, the most important part is it's flexibility. That is definitely the key to the success of this product.

 

[GST95]

With the example I gave, I said "benefits road racers much more than drag racers". That's all I was saying, not that it couldn't be used on a drag car.

If that was what you were meaning, thats fine and thank you for clearing it up, but its not what your post was actually saying when the sentence before it was "You want VGT if you need to improve spool from cruise and boost recovery after shifting." and the two right after it was "This is for the guy that needs a 60+lb/min turbo to provide some usable boost around the exit of an apex at a traction modulated 2500-3500rpm. Not for a guy who spends all of their 9-10 seconds of time on the track above 5000rpm." I also dont understand why still needing a wastegate has any argument either way.


Also, most of what you are saying is your opinion and vague speculation which is what a lot of people criticize our forum for. Who will benifit from this is something that that person needs to decide for themselves on their own particular setup and use. This product's most popular application or use might not even be for a DSM unless it is made in a way that makes it exclusively DSM specific which would be selling it short. Even if its most popular application ends up being on a DSM, it doesnt mean that it couldnt be used beneficially on some other vehicle or application.

Here is one scenario where this controller could be extremely beneficial for a particular dsm drag setup though. With the recent popularity in drag racing auto dsms, getting a good launch on a 60+lb/min turbo becomes somewhat of a challenge especially if you dont want to use nitrous. It took me all of last year playing around with different things on my car to get my launch from rolling out with a 2.2x 60' and going super slow for the first 100' then taking off to finally figuring out on the last day the track was open how to get it to leave the line at full boost and finally getting my 60's to at least get in the 1.5xs. With a VGT setup there is potential for possibly building boost quickly at the line, leaving the line at full boost to get a good launch, and then open the vanes to free up the exhaust to make the most hp/psi for better top end power. This is only one drag racing use that could benefit from this controller and there are more.


For your other arguement, can a VGT setup be completely optimized on a speed density setup? Probably not. Can it be setup to work very well? Possibly. Case in point, Chrysler offered a VNT Garrett turbo on a few different cars in 89-90 that was a speed density setup. The vanes were mechanically actuated to boost and it worked pretty well when the turbo was working correctly.


I think we should agree to disagree and hopefully the person making the controller will realize the benefit of making this flexible and user programable so that the customer can decide for themselves if their application and use could benefit from this product. Either way, Im done debating it and think we should move on.