Good turbo for track and drag use

[JOEY A]

So whats a little bigger than a evoIII? I might be selling my LS1 and getting a GSX....


I already had a evoiii, I want somthing a little bit bigger.....

 

[Slowboy]

Lets see some datalogs.

, its our old salesman's Mark Seich's car.

I guess you missed where he said he only had an AFC?

Not sure what logs you want from him, but the car runs 12.0's at 116 MPH, and it has for the past two years.

First time I ran 11's was on a SAFC 1 and 650's with a small 16g, almost seven years ago. An SAFC is fine if you have a budget for sure, but we all know it is not the best tuning device, more of a bandaid... but people willing to spend time with it, it does just fine for what it is.

My turbo for the guy who posted, TD05 20G, internal gate... it will take you a long way... 50 trim is questionable for autocross

Mike Huml

SBR Inc.

 

[SBR Joe]

sorry forgot to put on that part about the fmic and hp range

i thinging of getting the either greddy 24 big fmic
or the apexi

i have dejon full uicp to the throttle body and i believe the apexi with that


also thinking of getting fal fans to keep things cool

hp wise i want to get about 350 to 380

98 gs-t automatic

after the turbo setup i'll be looking in getting an ipt trans casue i think it said that the 2g autos can handle only 320hp ? not totally sure


so a 50 trim would be a good choice?
which one to be exact i know there are alot of makers of that type of turbo.

which ones would you guys perfer?

sorry bud, i failed to see this post. For those numbers a big16g or a TDO5 20g would be sufficent. I did 380whp in my FWD with the 20g on pump gas. Like Mike said, 50 trim may be a bit excessive for autocross but any bigger would not be worth a damn. With you hp goals though, either of those 2 turbs would be right up your alley!

Joe
Slowboy Racing

 

[TSIMonsteR]

PTE 5031RE would be perfect. Spools faster and hits harder then a 20g.

And also, SBR Joe, that is terrible advice. There is no tellins how many noobs will see your post and go buy 780cc injectors and think they can use the SAFC. You may be getting away with it, but it is not advisable, practical, and nearly impossible. The way the SAFC works just makes it a dangerous/complicated situation with a daily driver and injectors that big. SBR should be ashamed . . .

 

[SBR Joe]

PTE 5031RE would be perfect. Spools faster and hits harder then a 20g.

And also, SBR Joe, that is terrible advice. There is no tellins how many noobs will see your post and go buy 780cc injectors and think they can use the SAFC. You may be getting away with it, but it is not advisable, practical, and nearly impossible. The way the SAFC works just makes it a dangerous/complicated situation with a daily driver and injectors that big. SBR should be ashamed . . .

If it was such terrible advice, why am i doing it, driving it everyday and why am i suggesting it. And how would i get away with it and noone else if you dont mind me asking?If you had any clue you would not be trying to argue with me. Again if you dont mind me asking....where do you get your info from? Word on the streets? Have you ever tuned a car with 780's????????? Furthermore, if i can remember and read correctly i said i wouldnt go HIGHER than 780s with an SAFC, never did i say to DO IT. Please, stop.


Joe
Slowboy Racing

 

[92awddsm]

If it was such terrible advice, why am i doing it, driving it everyday and why am i suggesting it. And how would i get away with it and noone else if you dont mind me asking?If you had any clue you would not be trying to argue with me. Again if you dont mind me asking....where do you get your info from? Word on the streets? Have you ever tuned a car with 780's????????? Furthermore, if i can remember and read correctly i said i wouldnt go HIGHER than 780s with an SAFC, never did i say to DO IT. Please, stop.


Joe
Slowboy Racing

This is very easy for you to suggest but at the same time, you have(or should) plenty of experience in tuning. As stated, inexperienced people will follow you recommendation and have all kinds of problem. Next thing you know, they will be spreading the word that SBR doesnt have a clue because the recommend something that doesnt work and we will be overwhelmed with crap to clean up on the forum. Remember, the newbies are our future so dont mislead them into thinking your particular setup will work flawless for them.

Plain and simple, an afc, safc, etc will work fine(sorta) with up to 750-780 injectors as long as you have good knowledge in tuning and have the proper monitoring devices. If you are new to tuning, dont go larger than a 650-680 injector with an afc or equivilent.

 

[SBR Joe]

Thank you wiseman, but once again, i never recommended it, i jsut advised that i wouldnt go higher than that with an afc and just stated that i was running them. I dont know where the confusion started that i actually said to use 780's. Let me be a little more clear for those of you who read between the lines. 780cc injectors are the MAX i would go with using an SAFC, that is curently what I am running WITH NO PROBLEMS. For a noob, a 650-680 is a little more practical like stated above. But just for the record, my car ran fine with the AFC zeroed out and the 780s installed...also for the record, my friends did too.

Joe
Slowboy Racing

 

[TSIMonsteR]

I just don't want SBR getting a bad name for themselves. Most average people will not be able to run 780cc injectors on an SAFC. Heck, most have a hard time with 650cc injectors.

I was under the impression that the SAFC pulls signal from the MAS making the ECU see less air then there actually is, correct? To get 780s to work, would you not have to pull a massive amount of signal? With the ecu seeing so little air, would it not continue to raise the timing advance?

I mean, if you have an SAFC that works differently, please tell me!

It wasn't really a jab at you (I am bad at wording things), but with the SBR logo there beside your name people are going to trust the things you say. Lets face it, average tuners on DD cars, it is going to be VERY difficult

 

[TSIMonsteR]

Also, I have attempted to tune a 650cc SAFC car and was quite successful. The timing curve was a little to crazy for my pump gas loving self.

Anyway, back on topic.

To OP:

I think the PTE5031RE would be PERFECT for your needs. Being Auto, you'll be able to build boost of the line pretty easily with it, spool up is great, and it makes good top end power. Go with an external gate if you can for the added throttle response.

Also, throw a translab shift kit, ipt end clutch kit in that tranny, and get a bigger tranny cooler and you should be good to go. The Autos are actually pretty tough.

 

[spectr019]

Okay well I've been reading through this and I haven't seen any/much mention at all about this turbo...I've never personally used it but ya know, it's out there and has proven itself. What about a 20G Bastard? Any ideas about that?

Ben

 

[fwdeclipse]

Thank you wiseman, but once again, i never recommended it, i jsut advised that i wouldnt go higher than that with an afc and just stated that i was running them. I dont know where the confusion started that i actually said to use 780's. Let me be a little more clear for those of you who read between the lines. 780cc injectors are the MAX i would go with using an SAFC, that is curently what I am running WITH NO PROBLEMS. For a noob, a 650-680 is a little more practical like stated above. But just for the record, my car ran fine with the AFC zeroed out and the 780s installed...also for the record, my friends did too.

Joe
Slowboy Racing

When I installed my 650s before I got my keydiver chip. It would not rev past 3500rpm. When you say it ran fine do you mean idle. Just curious.

 

[SBR Joe]

Okay well I've been reading through this and I haven't seen any/much mention at all about this turbo...I've never personally used it but ya know, it's out there and has proven itself. What about a 20G Bastard? Any ideas about that?

Ben

Thats what the TD05 turbo taht i was talking about is. there is a TD06 version taht makes a bit more power but is a little laggier. The TD05 20g the same turbo that im currently running. Fast ass spoolup because it still uses a TD05 exhaust wheel but still makes awesome top end power.

Joe
Slowboy Racing

 

[SBR Joe]

When I installed my 650s before I got my keydiver chip. It would not rev past 3500rpm. When you say it ran fine do you mean idle. Just curious.

yes sir..it wasnt the greatest idle but it drove fine. Then agian, its a DSM, so i wouldnt be entirely surprised if mine and my buddies were fine but another wouldnt even start. There is no consistency with these things.

Joe
SBR

 

[Ludachris]

Joe, no need to get defensive when people start asking questions or trying to explain the need to be careful with how information is being presented. Nobody's attacking you. They're only trying to protect the community from coming away with information that might damage their car. The intentions are good and they're only trying to help.

For the record, I never suggest that anyone use an S-AFC with injectors larger than 550cc without using a chip due to the timing maps being out of wack. Though it may not always be the case for all cars, I still suggest it so that people will know that they'll have a better chance of getting good results that way. Just because some people have run their cars a certain way with no problems doesn't mean it's recommended that everyone try it - agreed? I think that's all some people here are saying. We want everyone to come away with the best information.

 

[wvturbo2]

I was just about to say something about the timing. When you have to pull out a bunch of fuel the timing gets messed up and can lead to a blown motor. This was the problem with the sw20 mr2's. Better safe than sorry. I say get a 50 trim over 20g since its cheaper and has more potential. If you have the money get dsmlink, is easy to install and use. I love it.

 

[92awddsm]

Thank you wiseman, but once again, i never recommended it, i jsut advised that i wouldnt go higher than that with an afc and just stated that i was running them. I dont know where the confusion started that i actually said to use 780's. Let me be a little more clear for those of you who read between the lines. 780cc injectors are the MAX i would go with using an SAFC, that is curently what I am running WITH NO PROBLEMS. For a noob, a 650-680 is a little more practical like stated above. But just for the record, my car ran fine with the AFC zeroed out and the 780s installed...also for the record, my friends did too.

Joe
Slowboy Racing

I, along with a lot of other people dont read between the lines, we only see what is in black and white. Reading between the lines is more assumption than fact, right? Assumptions is what causes problems, specially with the inexperienced.

I am in no way trying to say you are wrong, Im just trying to make it clear that what you run isnt advised. I personally know someone running 780's with just an afc and it seems to be doing well but it also is a stock 7.8:1 engine.

Just mentioning what you run is taken as a suggestion by a lot of people because you are an sbr employee. Posting something like that in a thread started by a 2g owner can end in catastrophic failure and next thing you know, you will be posted as the one at fault. What I have stated is just as much to protect the reputation of SBR as it is to protect the engines of some of the more easily influenced DSMTuners members. No hard feelings intended so please dont take it that way.

 

[tom04841]

yes sir..it wasnt the greatest idle but it drove fine. Then agian, its a DSM, so i wouldnt be entirely surprised if mine and my buddies were fine but another wouldnt even start. There is no consistency with these things.

I just installed 780's and the car wouldn't start, and my chip was programmed for 560's. Well it started, but died out almost instantly from flooding.

 

[oldman]

Joe, which maf are you running?

 

[GRNDSM]

Joe, as Chris pointed out, timing becomes an issue when you are using AFC to compensate for large (much above 550cc) injectors. You fool ECU into thinking that you have less air into the engine and that fine to control fuel. However, thinking that you have low boost, ECU runs much more aggressive timing.

That is great for making power if you are at the track running race fuel, but not so great on a daily driver with pump gas. You can get away with it for a while, but the next guy might easily destroy the spark plug with knock and kill his engine.

I know that knock control can help you in this regard and that I why I believe that many people do get away with it, but knock control is not perfect...

I personally do not recommend anything above 550cc with just the SAFC. If you want to run bigger injectors, you can go with a chip which compensates for larger injectors and then use SAFC to fine tune things. But that method of tuning has been obsolete since DSM link hit the market .

 

[GVR4592]

I'm not going to go into some in depth post like a lot of other people, I'm calling this one like I see it, pure bullshit.

 

[Ludachris]

I'm not going to go into some in depth post like a lot of other people, I'm calling this one like I see it, pure bullshit.

No, that's not the right attitude for this. Let's keep this constructive like we always do. I don't want to see it deteriorate into something useless because someone takes a strong statement wrong.

 

[Slowboy]

PTE 5031RE would be perfect. Spools faster and hits harder then a 20g.

And also, SBR Joe, that is terrible advice. There is no tellins how many noobs will see your post and go buy 780cc injectors and think they can use the SAFC. You may be getting away with it, but it is not advisable, practical, and nearly impossible. The way the SAFC works just makes it a dangerous/complicated situation with a daily driver and injectors that big. SBR should be ashamed . . .

What do you think everyone used before DSM link, or long befoe AEM... if people had the money they had a VPC and a GCC.... those of us on a budget had to use an SAFC... .... and an AFC and large injectors, and a 2G MAS took me to 130 MPH trap speeds in my FWD! BTW - I used 850's to accomplish that, long before the car was ever on a dyno.

We used SAFC and big injectors to go fast, its really that simple.

There are better methods today to go fast, but if you are cheap, and want to go fast, and SAFC or NEO now, will get you there.

We prefer you spend more money however (of course we do!)

Mike Huml
SBR Inc.

 

[Steve93Talon]

What do you think everyone used before DSM link, or long befoe AEM... if people had the money they had a VPC and a GCC.... those of us on a budget had to use an SAFC... .... and an AFC and large injectors, and a 2G MAS took me to 130 MPH trap speeds in my FWD! BTW - I used 850's to accomplish that, long before the car was ever on a dyno.

We used SAFC and big injectors to go fast, its really that simple.

On race gas - great. Big injectors = hide more airflow = more timing = more power as long as you're not knocking. (even that's debatable lately as guys running C16 or VP import claim that they reach a point where advancing timing ceases to increase power before reaching the knock threshold)

On pump gas - good luck. Sure, back in the day we got the job done with the limitations we had. We lowered base timing down to nothing. We lived with high timing and let the ECU read ridiculous knock count and therefore pull timing back to sane levels. The fact that so many of us drove around like this for years is a testament to how strong these engines are in stock form (and how hyperactive the stock knock circuit is).

This doesn't make it right. There are so many great options now to do it correctly it's not even funny. If you don't want to spend $750 on DSMlink and an EPROM ECU, you can do a Keydiver chip or even buy a hex editor and burn your own chips. You could even do ECU+ and control alot of parameters outside of the ECU if you don't want to hunt down an EPROM (it wouldnt be my choice but it is probably the best "piggyback" option out there"). I was one of those "My AFC/VPC is fine for me" people for a long time. Now that I've seen the light and gone to DSMlink I can't believe how I managed without it.

As someone else requested, I'd love to see a log on PUMP gas with 780s and a stock ECU.

 

[urbanrcr]

I would go FP3052 or fp green

 

[GRNDSM]

What do you think everyone used before DSM link, or long befoe AEM... if people had the money they had a VPC and a GCC.... those of us on a budget had to use an SAFC... .... and an AFC and large injectors, and a 2G MAS took me to 130 MPH trap speeds in my FWD! BTW - I used 850's to accomplish that, long before the car was ever on a dyno.

Mike, you are correct, there were few years (in the late 90's) when you had two basic injector choices: SAFC or VPC (sometimes both ). But the injectors that people were using much MUCH smaller! I still remember Buschur running 9's on 550's with his first RWD . Your basic injector choises were 550 RC or 660 Nippos. It wasn't until after 2000/2001 that PTE/FIC style injectors became popular and everyone started running large injectors.

It is amazing that there weren't more blown engines, which I attribute to toughness of 4G63 and use of race gas.