FP Green install, Zero Boost

[gsxjoe]

I have an issue that I believe I have figured out, but would like to ask for some opinions on the matter.

I just got finished up this past week installing an FP Green and manifold along with a Punishment recirculated O2 housing. After I got everything installed and primed the turbo with oil(cranking it with injectors unplugged) I attempted to go for a drive. I started off smooth, then tried to give it some gas and nothing, won't even go above 0, vacuum reads good around 15hg. Oh, I did burp my cooling system, and replace all the fluids and plugs.

According to my logger I am showing 0 to -2 timing, which really should not effect boost at all, I did a boost leak test, was good there and finally came to the forums and did a search on "new turbos, no boost" and a lot of the issued seemed to be wastegate related. I checked the wastegate and all the fittings are correct and the hoses are tight. Doesn't the turbo need a wastegate in order to build some boost?

I am really curious to see if this is the problem or not, if anybody has any other ideas as to what it is, please let me know.


I am pulling oil from filter housing and installed all new water lines for the turbo as well as the big blue FP dump tube, MTX-L wideband and new boost gauge.

Thanks in advance!


Edit* Seeing as how a lot of people only read the first couple posts, I removed the bad information regarding my issue. *

 

[gsxjoe]

Okay, first off I made a big mistake on having the flapper welded shut, it is not, the weld that I was looking at last night before I made the post(blame it on the beer or not paying attention) was the flapper arm on the outside. I pulled the manifold off as well as all my intercooler piping to check for maybe a loose rag and to ensure everything was in order. It was.

I now have a dedicated vacuum line to the BOV and I have the MBC routed to the turbo and the wastegate as per the picture that was linked earlier. The dp I have installed is from Punishment and is brand new. The only issue that I have with it is I need to get the flanged rotated to match up with my exhaust and test pipe which IS Megan Racing. (I guess it's my fault for not buying all my exhaust pieces from one company)

After getting everything installed I started her up and it seems that my vacuum is worse than before, 5-8 at 1200rpm sometimes 10, . One thing that I did notice though is that the exhaust side of my turbo got hot really fast after I started it, almost instantaneously.

Also did a boost leak test and everything checked out, no exhaust leaks either, from the manifold, O2 housing or dp.

Again, I apologize for giving the wrong information.


*edit* I forgot to add that I also checked to makes sure that both sides of the turbo spin freely, g2g. I also after installing the turbo unplugged all my injectors and cranked the car for 30-45 secs 4 times to prime the turbo.

If I was not getting the proper amount of oil or coolant to the turbo would that cause it to heat up that fast?

 

[dsmornothing]

One thing that I did notice though is that the exhaust side of my turbo got hot really fast after I started it, almost instantaneously.

If I was not getting the proper amount of oil or coolant to the turbo would that cause it to heat up that fast?

Do you still have a cat on the car? If you do its possible its clogged up.

 

[awdwhip]

Okay, first off I made a big mistake on having the flapper welded shut, it is not, the weld that I was looking at last night before I made the post(blame it on the beer or not paying attention) was the flapper arm on the outside. I pulled the manifold off as well as all my intercooler piping to check for maybe a loose rag and to ensure everything was in order. It was.

I now have a dedicated vacuum line to the BOV and I have the MBC routed to the turbo and the wastegate as per the picture that was linked earlier. The dp I have installed is from Punishment and is brand new. The only issue that I have with it is I need to get the flanged rotated to match up with my exhaust and test pipe which IS Megan Racing. (I guess it's my fault for not buying all my exhaust pieces from one company)

After getting everything installed I started her up and it seems that my vacuum is worse than before, 5-8 at 1200rpm sometimes 10, . One thing that I did notice though is that the exhaust side of my turbo got hot really fast after I started it, almost instantaneously.

Also did a boost leak test and everything checked out, no exhaust leaks either, from the manifold, O2 housing or dp.

Again, I apologize for giving the wrong information.


*edit* I forgot to add that I also checked to makes sure that both sides of the turbo spin freely, g2g. I also after installing the turbo unplugged all my injectors and cranked the car for 30-45 secs 4 times to prime the turbo.

If I was not getting the proper amount of oil or coolant to the turbo would that cause it to heat up that fast?

Does your wastegate get really hot too? Let me know.

 

[gofer]

Just to clear things up here.

External Wastegate off of the o2 sensor housing = No flapper in the turbo hotside
External Wastegate off of the exhaust manifold = Flapper is welded shut​

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The flex section collapsing can be a symptom of little boost, not no boost. If the flex section collapsed to the point that no exhaust gases could pass through it you'd have more problems then 0psi of boost.

My money is on a missing valve seat ring on your external wastegate, thats the only thing it could possibly be.

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[kidtsi]

Check the wastegate, with extreme temperatures the valve could stay open. that would be a faulty spring inside your gate and not letting you boost not even 1psi.

 

[brokedowntalon7]

RvlutionMtrsprt said it up there, how would a missing wastegate seat cause this if no exhaust gas is reaching the wastegate in the first place?
this has to be simple. Does the turbo infact spin?
have you verified the pressure of your oil feed?

edit* saw that it spins freely.

 

[gsxjoe]

RvlutionMtrsprt said it up there, how would a missing wastegate seat cause this if no exhaust gas is reaching the wastegate in the first place?
this has to be simple. Does the turbo infact spin?
have you verified the pressure of your oil feed?

edit* saw that it spins freely.

It does spin freely, on both ends. As far as the wastegate getting hot, no it does not, well from the heat coming off the manifold it gets a little warm.

I can try and take the wastegate off later, just need to be able to get to the V-band clamps and try to get it off to check. I really am not sure how a brand new wastegate would have bad springs already but it's worth a shot to look at.

Oil pressure according to my logger is 10-14.5 psi at idle and I am pulling from the oil filter housing as per RRE's 1g recommendations. Does that seem a little low?

My original plan was to take it to the local shop out here, Boss Innovations but since my flaky relative refuses to help me out with a tow and I don't want to spend more money than I have to. I am kind of stuck doing it myself, which is all good, I want to learn about my car anyhoo.

Thanks for all the info so far

 

[gofer]

RvlutionMtrsprt said it up there, how would a missing wastegate seat cause this if no exhaust gas is reaching the wastegate in the first place?

Would you or RvlutionMtrsprt please care to explain why there isn't exhaust gas making it to the wastegate?

have you verified the pressure of your oil feed?

How is oil pressure going to effect spool up, just curious your theory behind this too?

 

[kidtsi]

Would you or RvlutionMtrsprt please care to explain why there isn't exhaust gas making it to the wastegate?

How is oil pressure going to effect spool up, just curious your theory behind this too?

Too much oil pressure would affect spool up, But not 0 psi so I would like an explanation from them too. Lol

 

[gsxjoe]

I am pretty sure that oil has and is making it to the turbo. When I pulled the manifold off earlier today to check things out there was a little bit of oil around the crush washer on the oil feed turbo side and a small drop of oil on the fitting at the housing, well end of the house coming from the turbo. The OFH fitting is nice and tight. I also stuck a piece of fishtape into the exhaust side of the turbo and that is how I found it to open to the wastegate. If it was blocked I would have only gotten the tape in about 3 inch as to the 6 or so that I did get. I did check top and bottom holes.(Don't kill me, it was fiberglass fish tape with the eyehook removed)

 

[brokedowntalon7]

Hey Corey didn't mean to come off as arrogant as my post sounded- twas not a bash. On that note, a O2 housing wategate configuration, as im sure you know, exhaust gas must first pass through the internal wastegate "flapper hole," - same gate that has been welded shut. Which would explain why exhaust gas shouldn't be reaching the wastegate in this instance. (This is all of course is assuming that the flapper hole has not been recently drilled out. )

Regarding oil pressure, i was thinking that if the pressure was too high then the spool would be negatively affected. Now, i don't really see how this would be the cause of absolutely no boost- besides idle oil pressure at is fine.

This is strange.

 

[kidtsi]

He said on a previous post that the hole is not welded shut. It was a misunderstood.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

Would you or RvlutionMtrsprt please care to explain why there isn't exhaust gas making it to the wastegate?

How is oil pressure going to effect spool up, just curious your theory behind this too?

Hmm... maybe because the OP posted that the wastegate passage was WELDED SHUT

 

[gsxjoe]

Hmm... maybe because the OP posted that the wastegate passage was WELDED SHUT

BAH, again I am sorry for doing that. Here is a pic of what I was thinking about when I made that post.

Not sure why I was thinking that I saw that weld inside the exhaust housing...

 

[kchaazz]

My money is on a missing valve seat ring on your external wastegate, thats the only thing it could possibly be.

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[/QUOTE]

^^ This is what I was referring to earlier on. No seat is the only thing that will cause his issue, barring a billion boost leaks, which hes already tested for and found none. If the turbo wasnt getting any oil, it would have already puked by now. Weve established that theres adequete oil supply and pressure to the turbo, it spins freely, no boost leaks, and the flapper door isnt welded shut; the turbo was shipped with the correct turbine housing configuration. Sooo.... pull that wastegate and lets have a look

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

That's all good man... I was not bagging on you for making the mistake. I was giving gofer a hard time because as a moderator he should know to read the entire thread before making a statement like he did. As some others have already suggested, you should check to make sure the wastegate was installed with the sealing ring. It's generally taped on with red tape straight from Tial and it's pretty easy to have it fall off and forget to install it with the gate. That would keep you from building boost.

 

[mike96]

BAH, again I am sorry for doing that. Here is a pic of what I was thinking about when I made that post.

Not sure why I was thinking that I saw that weld inside the exhaust housing...

That would be a tell tale sign that you indeed have no internal waist gate... Now that we know that for sure, kind of starting to sound like you have a vacuum leak (and yes a vacuum leak is different than a boost leak). If your manifold got hot quick then you are more than likeley running lean. Take a can of ether, starter fluid, or wd40 even which is probably not the best thing but will work in a pinch, and spray it around all of your intake gaskets and couplings.. You will know as soon as you find a vacuum leak because the car will rev up. Just keep it away from the exhaust. I have also seen a loose manifold to turbo bolt cause a car to run abnormally lean as well.

Mike 5psi sounds like you have poor oiling or your turbo is out of balance.

I really hope not. the car ran fine and was boosting about 20 - 22 psi fine before it all came apart to get swapped over to the AWD chassis, and I didn’t change anything on the turbo setup I just put new gaskets on the motor. I am just hoping to not to have to replace the turbo.

 

[gofer]

Hey Corey didn't mean to come off as arrogant as my post sounded- twas not a bash. On that note, a O2 housing wategate configuration, as im sure you know, exhaust gas must first pass through the internal wastegate "flapper hole," - same gate that has been welded shut. Which would explain why exhaust gas shouldn't be reaching the wastegate in this instance. (This is all of course is assuming that the flapper hole has not been recently drilled out. )

I didn't read it as bashing, just wanted to hear your reasoning is all.

You've got to understand how a welded wastegate flapper would effect spool with the external gate on the o2 housing, basically not running a wastegate at all. If this were the case there would be ZERO boost control which means that 100% of the exhaust gases exiting the motor would spin up the turbine wheel. The case of 0psi of boost is the exact opposite of what would be happening if the flapper hole was welded shut in the exhaust housing. So who cares what the OP said about the flapper being welded shut, everyone in here should have known from the get go that it was misinformation because of the symptoms he was describing.

The only option here that hasn't been checked is the external wastegate valve seat or the wastegate itself. Even though the wastegate may seem like its post turbo, its not, please refer to the diagram I drew up quick in paint.

BLACK - vacuum line going to the boost source
RED - exhaust gases going over the turbine wheel to build boost
ORANGE - exhaust gases going around the turbine wheel and out the wastegate​

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Exhaust gases flow like water or electricity, it will take the path of least resistance. If theres no valve seat ring on that external wastegate then all the exhaust that should be moving over the turbine wheel to spool up the turbo, which would build boost, are escaping between the o2 housing and wastegate.

Now pretend the flapper was welded shut, where would the exhaust gases go? Look at the picture.

I was giving gofer a hard time because as a moderator he should know to read the entire thread before making a statement like he did.

I did read the entire thread, which is why I suggested he check the valve seat to the ewg.

Post #26

Okay, first off I made a big mistake on having the flapper welded shut, it is not, the weld that I was looking at last night before I made the post(blame it on the beer or not paying attention) was the flapper arm on the outside.

 

[gsxjoe]

I have removed the v-band clamps from around my wastegate and that sucker is stuck in there good, can I use a mini prybar or my Klein all-in-one flathead? (chisel, prybar, hammer) , in between the wastgate and housing to get it unstuck? I don't want to break anything.

I did spray some carb cleaner around the intake manifold and the car did not rev up or down and the throttle body shaft seals I just replaced about 2 months ago. I did happen to find my egr valve has no hoses going to it. Is it possible that that is where my huge leak is coming from? I have a test pipe and no other emissions crap on the car except that. Should I fab or buy a egr block off? From reading these forums, my vacuum, big cams or not should not be under 15 at all at idle let along at 5.

 

[kchaazz]

Regarding the wastegate, you could give it a tap with a rubber or plastic deadblow hammer, as opposed to prying. As far as the EGR goes, Ive ran with it on the intake manifold with a vacuum hose just looped from one nipple to the other, but never without anything plugging the nipples, so I cannot verify whether or not the nipples leak under boost or vacuum without lines. Out of curiousity, when you pressurized your system during your boost leak test, how long did your gauge take to drop to zero?
Regarding the low vacuum, many things will effect vacuum- too lean, too rich, intake tract leaks, to name a few. If you have a wideband, whats it reading at idle??

 

[gofer]

Take the wastegate off with a rubber malet, the EGR valve not having a vacuum line going to it has nothing to do with the cars ability to build boost. As far as boost leaks go, it would take an IC pipe to be almost completely disconnected, or equivalent, to build 0psi at WOT and if this were the case the car wouldn't even idle right if at all.

Once you check that the valve ring seat is in fact there, then we can move on to other possibilities.

 

[gsxjoe]

Take the wastegate off with a rubber malet, the EGR valve not having a vacuum line going to it has nothing to do with the cars ability to build boost. As far as boost leaks go, it would take an IC pipe to be almost completely disconnected, or equivalent, to build 0psi at WOT and if this were the case the car wouldn't even idle right if at all.

Once you check that the valve ring seat is in fact there, then we can move on to other possibilities.

I took the wastegate off, and the seat is actually there. My wideband shows 14-15 at idle but the logger is showing -2degrees to 0 on my timing, I am going to put everything back together and readjust the timing at the CAS and richen up my mixture a little, well after I do the timing back to around 5.

Below, this is what you were talking about right? for the valve seat on my wastegate? I also have all holes marked air plugged but one on the bottom for my vacuum.

 

[kchaazz]

So, you had the smaller ring of the seat inserted into gate, not the flange of the O2 housing, right?? When the seat is in the gate properly, it should look like it does in this picture:





Disregarding that the flanges in the pic are two bolt vs vband, notice how the seat is inserted and nearly flush with the flange? Just trying to cover every base here. As for the timing, -2 sounds a bit strange to me. (with timing and idle properly set, 8 degrees on the logger is pretty common) Are you using MMCD 18g for logging? If so, did you change your "car" in the software from 3S to DSM?? The 3S uses a different base timing value and it looks funky if youre logging a DSM in 3S mode. Also, when adjusting base timing, dont forget to unplug your logger cable from the diagnostic port before grounding the timing plug under the hood. (having the cable connected with the timing plug grounded is for adjusting base idle)

 

[gsxjoe]

So, you had the smaller ring of the seat inserted into gate, not the flange of the O2 housing, right?? When the seat is in the gate properly, it should look like it does in this picture:

Correct, it fit in there like a glove.

 

[kchaazz]

Correct, it fit in there like a glove.

Good. In that case, how difficult is it for you to depress the seat on the wastegate by hand??