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1G Finally took transmission apart, advice needed on which parts need replacement. (More photos!)

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
So I finally got around to dropping the trans on my '92 Talon TSi AWD and took it apart. To my novice eyes it looks to be in good condition, no broken gears, forks or pieces of metal or major shavings, maybe a few tiny case slivers that might have been caused by taking it apart. It needs a good cleaning but that's normal.

The oil, which is still fairly new, maybe a couple hundred miles since I replaced it late last year, is kind of grayish with maybe a tiny tinge of bronze. The magnet had this thick sludge-like goo around it of the same approximate color. I'll post photos of everything later after I take them.

Since the reason for taking it apart was to fix the popping out of 1st issue, I'll start with the intermediate shaft. I haven't taken it apart yet as the bearing splitter I have is too small and I have to order an OTC 1130.

But I took some photos and was wondering what you all think, what's obviously bad and needs to be replaced (beyond the bearings and lock ring of course, and maybe the needle bearings).

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It's a little hard to tell but both synchros are clearly shot, with many (but not all) dogteeth totally worn down on one side or the other. I was going to replace them anyway and expected this so no surprises there.

The reverse gear on the slider/sleeve is worn on the pointy side (not sure what the official term is). Is that bad and does this by itself necessitate replacing the hub/slider assembly?

What about the dogteeth on 1st & 2nd? Do either look worn enough to require replacement, or at lease make it a good idea since I have it apart anyway?

Finally, I had the trans rebuild or replaced over 25 years ago by a local dealer. It took them nearly a month as they kept trying to replace this or that, and finally they put in a new trans, which worked fine until this popping out of 1st issue started happening some years ago (at which point I kept driving it for a few months until the clutch wore out and the car sat undriven for 5-6 years, until l started restoring it nearly a year ago).

So I'm not exactly sure what I've got in there since new trans sometimes have different parts even for a specific trans part #. Looking at the invoice (I saved and scanned everything), the new trans part # is MD995651. However at some point, whether before or after they put in the new trans I'm not sure, they put in a new 2nd gear, part # MD743190, new 1st/2nd hub/slider w/synchros assembly part # MD743534, and a new intermediate shaft, part # MD740193. So it's possibly a bit funky in there. Or not.

Any idea which shaft, gears and hub/slider I have, based on these photos? And anything else look bad enough to replace?
 
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pat white

Proven Member
159
61
Jun 10, 2017
West Bay, NL_Canada
Just wanted to say i am following this thread as I have a tranny that pops out of first ...it was shifting ok when i bought the car but on the drive home this 80's firebird want to race and i missed a downshift ...after that it starts popping out of first ...never drove it after and the trans is sitting and am planning a rebuild as my other trans has about 180000 kms on it ...nice detail on the pics just the thing i need to be looking at :thumb:
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Just wanted to say i am following this thread as I have a tranny that pops out of first ...it was shifting ok when i bought the car but on the drive home this 80's firebird want to race and i missed a downshift ...after that it starts popping out of first ...never drove it after and the trans is sitting and am planning a rebuild as my other trans has about 180000 kms on it ...nice detail on the pics just the thing i need to be looking at :thumb:
I'm glad that this thread is of help to you, and I'm hoping others too. That's half the reason for such sites existing. In my case I don't know specifically when and how it started popping out of first. I may have ground gears, or maybe something else worse down. But one day it just started happening, and I put it off for literally years. I suspect it was insufficient clutch disengagement.

Now that I'm finally fixing it, I'll replace any other parts that should be replaced. I'm also going to be fixing the clutch pedal slop issue that may very well be the original cause of this issue, and replace all the bushings on the shift cables, both ends as well as the shifter base, plus master cylinder, SS hose, and while I've got the trans out I'm also going to replace the rear engine seal and take out the oil pan and replace some gaskets there as it's been leaking. Once that's done I'll replace the TB and related parts, and finally finish work on the rear suspension that I started last year, e.g. new BJs, links, bushings, clean up some rust.

Yep, it's a "project car", but it's been mine all along. I'll be posting more pix as I proceed.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
More photos, with better detail (I used a digital camera in macro mode instead of my cell phone). Hopefully this gives a better indication of what's worn enough to need replacement.

1st gear dogteeth & synchro:

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2nd gear dogteeth & synchro:

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So, what do you think? As I wrote above both synchros are shot and will be replaced, along with the keys, springs, tapered bearings, lock ring, and maybe needle bearings.

But what about the hub/slider, 1st & 2nd gears? I realize that I haven't posted photos of the sleeve inner and hub outer teeth, so perhaps it's premature as to whether they need to be replaced. But the reverse teeth are pretty torn up on the "pointy" end.
 
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Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Flipping though all these bring into focus just how little I understand the internal operation of a manual trans (and Auto even less, btw). Certainly some wear is evident, and with the tolerance of these fast spinning parts, that can’t be good. I get the basics, but mostly I’m just a spectator here cheering you on. I’m attaching my own photo of how I’m attempting to solve my own tranny issues: pay an expert to do it! You’ll get here by and by, and be much prouder than I to have done so (and hopefully for less coin).

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XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Now that's a nice-looking trans--from the outside at least! :tease:

But, at this point I'm pretty committing to DIY. At MOST I might send a stack out, but I doubt it. Right now my two biggest challenges are getting the stacks apart so I can examine everything and see what needs replacing, and figuring out what does need replacing.

I thought I had a big enough bearing splitter that I got as a loaner from Autozone, but it turned out to be a bit too small. Plus I don't have a press and will have to either buy, rent or borrow one, or just take it to a shop to have done.

A local one charges $25 which is not bad, and they'll do both ends of each stack for that price. I'll probably end up taking it there, since I need the flywheel resurfaced and they do that too (a bit pricey at $85 but this is an expensive market).

Anyway, I think I can do this, and more importantly do it right. I'll just take it slow and be as deliberate as possible, and not cut any corners (although I did ever so slightly nick a gear tooth at the outer tip and will probably file that down slightly).
 

Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Yeah, $25 seems reasonable for pressing those off, though figure that much again to reassemble later. A simple press from Harbor Freight is around $120. If you have space for it, that’s a handy shop tool. If you don’t, then re-selling it when you’re done for half the new cost is an option.

And I certainly am not trying to talk you out of tackling this job yourself. Basically I’m just conceding that I didn’t have the stomach to try it on mine.
The glass-bead finish is nice though, even if it does nothing for the way it functions.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Well it's not just the press but also a bearing splitter that costs $160 and isn't available as a loaner anywhere I looked. Both will pretty much be one-shot tools for me. So $25 x 2 seems like a better deal to me, plus I have to go there for the flywheel resurfacing.

Btw when I was at HF recently I noticed that they locked down their floor model hydraulic presses. Either it's a safety/insurance/legal thing, or they noticed that people were bringing in parts to press in or off for free, possibly breaking them in the process.

So, anyone with any expertise on this matter have any opinions on which of these parts are shot and need to be replaced, beyond the synchros and those parts that need to be replaced as routine maintenance, like bearings, lock rings, etc.?

Also, when I get my OEM flywheel resurfaced, am I supposed to remove the dowels, and if so how, or will the machine shop remove them? I thought they might have a special tool as the only way I can think of to remove them is vise grips, which might ruin them.
 

Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Since the steps have to be ground A precise amount in relation to the flywheel surface, I can’t imagine a way without first removing the dowels. Probably several methods to do this, and whether you can re-use them comes down to how stubborn they are to let go. There are slide hammers with a pin-vise end, or vice grip the dowel and pry with two levers if there is enough to grip and surface on the step. I bet a decent shop would have a good way, and likely wouldn’t even cost extra.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
I'll ask the shop to see how this works. I assume it's a standard thing as dowels are common.
 

Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
I'm currently awaiting a flywheel being resurfaced, and I already bought new dowels on the presumption that the ones it had are gone into the recycle bin.
BTW, funny what you said about the floor model press at HF. I started trying to picture you walking into the store with a cluster under one arm and a separator in hand.:shhh:
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
I'm currently awaiting a flywheel being resurfaced, and I already bought new dowels on the presumption that the ones it had are gone into the recycle bin.
BTW, funny what you said about the floor model press at HF. I started trying to picture you walking into the store with a cluster under one arm and a separator in hand.:shhh:
Heh, I actually thought about doing just that but reconsidered. I don't think it would be a big deal for one press, but I'd probably feel too self-conscious to do it properly. But mostly I thought it was because people actually did this and they wanted to prevent it.

Btw which flywheel do you have and do you have the tools to confirm the proper step? How much are they charging you for the job?

Oh, and I took a look at the 1-2 & 3-4 forks. Both look fine, although the pads on the 1-2 are worn out. Is that replaceable, or do the fork itself need to be replaced? Seems a shame if otherwise it's in good condition. No cracks, pits, marring, dents, scuffs, etc. After I cleaned it with detergent I swear it looked brand new other than the missing pads and some obvious shiny wear marks where it makes contact with the sleeve.

I'm also wondering, even though the synchros are cleary worn, I'm obviously still able to get into 1st gear from a standstill, so what could be causing the popping out? Is it the somewhat worn gear dogteeth, or maybe the worn fork pads? I also noticed a bit of play on the output shaft to the t-case, around 1-3mm I'm guessing. Could that be it? What else should I look for?
 
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Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Good questions, but here my deal. I bought the 6-bolt awd flywheel from another dsmtuners member, and had it shipped directly to my trans shop, TRE. They are sending it to a machine shop, and then shipping to me. I have a dial indicator, so I will likely measure the step height based on guidance on VFAQ, but I have to trust that TRE knows what’s up, and has done this properly, as I trust they have rebuilt an awd trans and xfer for me. Jon Ripple, the owner, has been enjoyable to deal with. He said the flywheel reurface would be around $50, and then shipping, and he will magniflux to check for cracks that might be hiding.
once I get that delivered, I can start actually planning to swap my old stuff for “new” old stuff. I have replacement bolts, clutch kit, dowels: basically every part that might need replaced in connection with a trans R&R. I’ll wait and see how the rear main seal and trans mount look when I drop the original one out from my car, but prepared to replace those if needed. Hoping their OK. I previously did the pedal and hydraulics, and shifter, so basically everything trans related will be new or rebuilt.
I’ll start posting when Underway.

I will also add that it’s not my style to farm out my wrenching project, but this car has been way more repair oriented form the start than I anticipated, and fortunately I can swing the cost on this.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Since it's my first time tackling these tasks I wanted to do it myself, but there are cost issues. But if I was doing this for the Nth time and could afford it, I'd probably consider paying a quality shop to do it. But if I had pros do everything I've done on the car and still have to do, including this, including parts it would probably have run me $5000-$8000, and there's no way I'd have spent that much on this car, much as I like it. As it is I'll probably end up spending $3500-$4000, not including tools, which is also more than I'd have liked. But if you divide it by the years I didn't drive the car or deferred maintenance and repairs, it's actually not that much, on the low end of things actually.

But first I need to figure out this trans issue and what to replace.
 

Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Understood. I’m afraid I won’t be much help with your present task. I bought my car for $4,500, and am now about 10k on top of that. The only work I paid for is this trans, and reupholstering the leather seats and headliner. So the rest in parts, and a few tools and consumables.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
I don't count tools, even if I got one just for working on a given car, because the vast majority of them are general purpose and will outlive most cars. Also consumables, and of course gas, insurance, registration, etc., as you're going to pay for those anyway. I include only parts, whether structural ones like calipers and struts or replacement ones like pads and plugs, and service for tasks I couldn't or wouldn't tackle myself, like installing tires and alignment. But, really, DSMs, while they can be DDs, and in my case was one for years, are basically fun cars, and looking at them from a financial point of view seems kind of silly. So I guess I'm silly! ;)
 

luv2rallye

DSM Wiseman
7,971
841
Jun 7, 2003
Minneapolis, Minnesota
You asked for some advice/ideas:
1) IMHO, the most common reasons for pop-outs are: worn bearings allowing shaft axial movement, shift fork wear, loose 36mm nuts (allowing shaft axial movement), shifter cable casings not being held in place, worn engine mounts allowing tranny to move while shifting, out of spec bearing preload/endplay (allowing shaft axial movement). Also read "Internal Issues" here: http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/popout.html

2) Here's a great bearing separator and puller set I bought at Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/beari...-set-62593.html?_br_psugg_q=bearing+separator

3) You can save yourself buying a new reverse idler gear by just filing down the teeth points into a teepee shape yourself (to allow easier shifting into reverse). [Tim Zimmer professional tranny rebuilder tip].

4) You may need this bearing race removal tool (Miller 9664), I did - another Tim Zimmer tip.

5) Some good Tim Zimmer tips: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/s...d-manual-trans-rebuild.534335/#post-153803255

6) Attached are some pics from my 99 FWD tranny rebuild. Hold mouse over the pic to see what you're looking at.

7) I assume you've already looked at Dre's 99GSX Master Tranny Rebuild VFAQ Guide?

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Mech Addict

Supporting Member
621
226
Jun 9, 2019
Jackson, Wyoming
Totally agree. I could never justify a sports car, and now I can. I could actually have gotten something new, but I always liked dsm, and they are just old enough for me to wrench on. It’s a hobby, pure and simple, even if I want to use it as a DD.
But we digress. Nobody chiming in on your repair questions lately....

I wrote too soon! Some more knowledge dropped!
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Totally agree. I could never justify a sports car, and now I can. I could actually have gotten something new, but I always liked dsm, and they are just old enough for me to wrench on. It’s a hobby, pure and simple, even if I want to use it as a DD.
But we digress. Nobody chiming in on your repair questions lately....
Actually, they're starting to come in...

And, I bought my Talon in my late 20's, sight unseen, on the phone, after I left a job that I hated other than that I made enough to be able to afford a new car. Took Amtrak to pick it up, signed the paperwork, paid for it, drove it home, and three days later I hit the road on a mammoth cross-country drive. Two and a half months, 13,000 miles, 35 states, most of the national parks, bunch of cities, met and stayed with friends and family along the way, otherwise stayed in motels and campgrounds, the works. Enough memories for a lifetime.

So I bought it as a "fun" car, but it converted to my DD upon my return, work, shopping, errands, outings, etc. But I didn't pay it enough attention over the years since it's not "your dad's Oldsmobile" (which is ironic because the car I had before it was literally my dad's Oldsmobile) and requires some TLC to keep running well. So all that caught up with me some years back, and I'm finally finishing up catching up with it all. Still some work to be done but I think the worst is over. I don't really look at this trans rebuild as anywhere near as difficult as stuff I did on it last year. The hard part was the research.

You asked for some advice/ideas:
1) IMHO, the most common reasons for pop-outs are: worn bearings allowing shaft axial movement, shift fork wear, loose 36mm nuts (allowing shaft axial movement), shifter cable casings not being held in place, worn engine mounts allowing tranny to move while shifting, out of spec bearing preload/endplay (allowing shaft axial movement). Also read "Internal Issues" here: http://www.wcengineering.com/articles/popout.html

2) Here's a great bearing separator and puller set I bought at Harbor Freight: https://www.harborfreight.com/beari...-set-62593.html?_br_psugg_q=bearing+separator

3) You can save yourself buying a new reverse idler gear by just filing down the teeth points into a teepee shape yourself (to allow easier shifting into reverse). [Tim Zimmer professional tranny rebuilder tip].

4) You may need this bearing race removal tool (Miller 9664), I did - another Tim Zimmer tip.

5) Some good Tim Zimmer tips: https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/s...d-manual-trans-rebuild.534335/#post-153803255

6) Attached are some pics from my 99 FWD tranny rebuild. Hold mouse over the pic to see what you're looking at.

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Well, I checked before I took it apart and the 36mm nuts were on tight and the mounts look fine. But there was some play on the output shaft, the 1-2 fork is worn down (pads are gone), the cable end and bracket bushings were coming apart (and I assume the same is true of the shifter ones), the bearings feel rough, and most of the races and shims just fell out which makes me suspect that there was too much play. So these could all have something to do with the popping out issue.

What I don't know is whether the 1st gear dogteeth could also have something to do with it. What do you think of their condition, based on the photos I posted? There's definitely some rounding of the tips but they more or less seem ok. But I'm not a good judge. I haven't taken the stacks apart yet so I don't know what condition the keys, springs, hub or sleeve are in. I suspect that the keys are worn though.

The HF bearing splitter set above is too small to take apart the intermediate shaft. It calls for at least a 5" one. I have a 4.25" one and it fits, under 1st gear but not 2nd, but the threaded rods are too short to secure on both ends, so I can't safely use it. I ordered one that goes up to 9", the OTC 1130, which should work. Then I'll know more.
 

luv2rallye

DSM Wiseman
7,971
841
Jun 7, 2003
Minneapolis, Minnesota
IMO the dog teeth (ones on the gears themselves that the slider slides over) look fine - but I'm not a tranny expert. The teeth on the syncros look somewhat mangled though. But you should send your photos to the tranny expert Tim Zimmer (tmzperformance.com) on here as twicks69. He's helped me many times. Or you can just send the stacks to him to do. He'll take them apart, tell you what you need and price, and get your permission before doing it and only do what you agree to. Very reliable, honest, and a tranny expert professional.
 
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XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Yes, the synchros are shot. Some of the teeth look fine, others look worn down to a thin stem. And I haven't even looked at their inner friction surfaces. They'll be replaced.

I'm hoping that the gears and even hub/sleeve still have tens of thousands of miles on them, but I'll need expert opinion on that. I might take them to a shop to be looked at in person. Some things you can't pick up in online 2D images. I'll spend whatever needs to be spent, but if it doesn't need to be spent, then I'd like to know.

I suspect that it's a bunch of things going on here. For all I know even the poppets are bad.
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Quick update. Slowly making progress but still a ways to go. The trans is basically disassembled with the exception of the 3 pressed-in bell housing races and the select and shift lever assembly. I got some loaner tools for the former and the latter I still haven't decided whether I'll disassemble, but most likely I will since I have the trans out and I might as well rebuild it. The parts on the outside of the trans are rusted and cruddy and if nothing else I'd like them to look clean and probably paint them, along with the case.

So far I haven't been able to disassemble the intermediate shaft since the various tools I've obtained won't do it, but I think I figured out a solution and should have it apart in a few days. Then I'll be able to post photos of each part and see what the site experts have to say. I'm hoping it's just the 1-2 fork, synchros, springs and keys and not the hub/sleeve or gears. Those are a bit pricey, but if I have to replace them I will. I will of course replace the input and intermediate shaft bearings, per the experts' advice, along with the pins, lock rings, spacers, 36mm nuts, etc.

In the meantime I've been cleaning parts and checking them to see what kind of shape they're in. Most everything looks good, to my untrained eyes at least. I'll post photos of basically everything once it's all disassembled, in case I'm overlooking something.

Stay tuned, more coming soon...
 

XC92

Proven Member
829
136
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Finally got the intermediate shaft apart. I didn't use a press, since I don't have one and it's proven hard to find a local shop that does have one and doesn't charge a ridiculous fee to press out parts or is pretty far away. So I used a CTA 8099 10 ton push-puller with a CTA 4-1/4" bearing separator.

It fit fine but the two halves were too far apart to be able to secure the connecting rods with the supplied nuts. I was just careful to make sure everything was properly aligned and secure and liberally sprayed lubricant on everything, and went slow and careful.

I started it with a wrench but there was no way I was getting things off manually so I went against recommendation and used an impact wrench (same as everyone does with spring compressors). But I did it in 1-2 second bursts, stopping to make sure that everything looked fine and I wasn't breaking things. It all came off eventually with nothing damaged or broken.

After washing everything with Dawn, two things became apparent. One, the tips of the hub sleeve teeth were worn down pretty bad on both sides so I need a new one. The tips of the synchro teeth were also worn so I need new ones as well. The sleeve, syncrhos and hub all come in a set so that's what I'll order. So this is what years of gear grinding looks like!

The other thing I noticed, that shouldn't have been a surprise since I had the trans serviced and ultimately replaced by a dealer way back in 1994 with a 1994 trans, was that the 2nd gear synchro is a double, with an inner and outer brass ring and a middle steel-colored ring. This also means that it has a stronger 2nd gear. This is good, right? Just costs a bit more to replace.

1st & 2nd gears look ok, as do the shaft and 1st gear sleeve. The needle bearings look ok too, but I think I'll replace them, along with the 2 springs, 3 keys, both tapered bearings, and of course the sleeve, hub and both synchros. Compared to the intermediate shaft, the input shaft looks in much better shape, so I might not take it apart or replace anything. Even the bearings and races look good. Big mistake though?

I'll take photos and post them this weekend to see what folks think first, before placing an order. Since it's a holiday weekend I won't lose shipping time by waiting till next week to order. I've waited this long so I can wait a bit longer. I have a bunch of other things I need to do on the car anyway in the meantime (dropping & cleaning oil pan, replacing rear seal, resurfacing flywheel, ordering unrelated parts, etc.).

It's moving along. Not quite there yet but making progress.

Btw, I'm thinking of putting together a guide documenting all this, with photos, consolidating all the great and detailed advice that site experts have given over the years that are kind of "lost" among many, many comments. E.g. tools needed, parts to replace with their product codes, steps to take, tips, hints, cautions, etc. Instead of searching for what they're looking for, folks can refer to one long guide (and Tim won't have to answer the same damn questions ad nauseum, kind of like this site's Sisyphus!). What do you all think? Or are so few people still rebuilding their trans at this point along with parts slowly becoming unavailable that it won't be worth the effort?
 
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luv2rallye

DSM Wiseman
7,971
841
Jun 7, 2003
Minneapolis, Minnesota
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