Evo 8-10 Brembo Calipers DSM Conversion (for 1g too)

[psycho]

If you upgrade the Brake Master Cylinder (BMC) to a larger one, the distance that the pedal has to move to accomplish the same job it does now, is shortened. This does not improve your braking ability, just changes pedal feel.

To improve braking ability, you have to either increase leverage (larger rotor) or increase clamping force (larger caliper/caliper pistons) or both.

 

[EGLTAWLN]

i have found today that the 1991 galant AWD n/a with abs comes stock with the 8"+9" BB and a 1" MBC.
my 91 awd talon came with a 1" MBC and a 7+8 BB - no abs.
pick and pull 91 fwd talon turbo - 15/16" MBC and 7+8 BB - no abs.
pick and pull 91 fwd galant 4g63 na - 1"MBC and 7+8 BB - with abs.
pulled a 8"+9" BB from a sportback n/a lancer. i have it installed but the piston on the bb seems shorter than the dsm one by about 1/2", so i can't yet say if my talon pedal is bottoming out the MBC or hitting the floor first.
if it doesn't work, i have another 91 n/a awd galant parts car to steel the 8"+9" BB out of.
installed with engine in and cyclone manifold.

 

[ed1380]

I just got a booster and master cylinder from a 2000gt. How do I measure the diaphragm without taking it apart?

 

[GPLaserRS]

I just scored an 1 1/16 MC off a '00 Eclipse at Parts Galore for $15.80, not too bad Now I just need some calipers...

 

[gofer]

I just got a booster and master cylinder from a 2000gt. How do I measure the diaphragm without taking it apart?

What's the number on the white sticker on the front of the brake booster? If it's a 42 then it's the one you need.

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[ed1380]

Nope. It came with a 1 1/16 master

Front part measures 8.5" diameter

 

[gofer]

Hmmm. Strange. Well, either way, ALL 3g's came with the 8+9 BB... 3g FSM

 

[ed1380]

Well it was $22 for booster and master so I'm not complaining.


How would you compare the different big brake mods? evo8 vs cts vs stock caliper w/ cobra rotors.

 

[GPLaserRS]

So am I understanding this correct that all 3G eclipses have the 8+9 brake booster? If that's the case I'll go tomorrow and pick it up from the yard before its too late.

 

[dsm_mike]

How would you compare the different big brake mods? evo8 vs cts vs stock caliper w/ cobra rotors.

I dont know about stock calipers, but i would like to compare cobra brakes (calipers and rotors) and evo brakes. I think the cts would be too much work to get going correctly.
I found this on another thread:

So just an example for feasible DSM brake upgrades, torque numbers are:

evo brembos (40/46mm)w/ 12.6" rotor = 5170 in-lbs
cts-v/GXP G8 calipers (40/44mm) w/ 13" rotor = 5086 in-lbs
cts-v/GXP G8 calipers(40/44mm) w/14" rotor = 5543 in-lbs
stock 2g/1g 2-piston(42.9mm) w/10.9" rotor = 4124 in-lbs
1g/2g 2-piston with outlander bracket 11.6" rotor = 4444 in-lbs
6-piston cts-v calipers are (30/34/38mm) on 14" rotor =5245 in-lbs

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152672561-post137.html

 

[ed1380]

I found this in the 2g factory tech manual

 

[gofer]

Me too, already posted the info in this thread.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/364435-evo-8-10-brembo-calipers-dsm-conversion-1g-too-12.html#post152861681

 

[agarc023]

I have a couple of front brembo calipers needing a new home

 

[dsmcurse]

that car looks dope. man i want these brakes. will 16" mitsu 5spoke wheels work with thses brakes? i have konig 18" wheels, but i also have a super nice pair of stock 16"GST wheels with NITTO tires. i LOVE the 16" wheels on my 2g. will these brakes work with 16"rims?

 

[dot45]

that car looks dope. man i want these brakes. will 16" mitsu 5spoke wheels work with thses brakes? i have konig 18" wheels, but i also have a super nice pair of stock 16"GST wheels with NITTO tires. i LOVE the 16" wheels on my 2g. will these brakes work with 16"rims?

Not a chance of the evo brakes ever fitting in a 16" rim. Depending on spoke design and offset some 17" rims have clearance issues.

 

[psycho]

The Evo guys run FD 16" rims with their stock brakes.

 

[jtmcinder]

You guys really need to say which Evo you're talking about. I've seen 16"s on Evo 8s and 9s, but never anything smaller than 18" on an X.

 

[ceedawg]

If you upgrade the Brake Master Cylinder (BMC) to a larger one, the distance that the pedal has to move to accomplish the same job it does now, is shortened. This does not improve your braking ability, just changes pedal feel.
To improve braking ability, you have to either increase leverage (larger rotor) or increase clamping force (larger caliper/caliper pistons) or both.

This is why I'm starting to suspiciously believe that we only need to change to the 3g bigger master cylinder and that it may not be necessary to change the brake booster to get the necessary effect we are looking for with the pedal feel when we upgrade to the EVO brakes. How many big brake kits do you find actually have you change the brake booster and brake master cylinder as opposed to maybe just the master cylinder,calipers and rotors?

I would change just to the bigger master cylinder first as opposed to yanking off the intake manifold ,brake booster and master cylider and take things from there.

from Willwoods website:


A:
The master cylinder bore size that you need is dependent on several variables. Choosing a master cylinder bore size begins with defining how the master cylinder will be actuated, manually or with the assistance of a booster, either hydraulic or vacuum operated. Once you have decided on how the master cylinder will be actuated, the information below can be used as a guideline for selecting the right master cylinder. Keep in mind that auto manufacturers have put many years of experience and a lot of testing into determining the right combination for a given car. When building a custom car with changes to the suspension, brakes, tires, and weight balance; you too may need to do some testing to determine which master cylinder is right for your vehicle.

The combined piston area and piston volume of your calipers and the pedal ratio, are two of the primary considerations. Whether the system is boosted or not is another consideration. Remember that a larger master cylinder bore produces more volume and a smaller master cylinder bore produces more pressure. To determine the appropriate master cylinder bore for your specific application, review Wilwood's Tech Tip Guide.
Q: What master cylinder is best suited for my application?
A:
The goal is to select a master cylinder system that supplies sufficient fluid volume to provide a firm, responsive pedal, while generating enough pressure to stop the car comfortably. There are two types of master cylinders, single reservoir, single outlet master cylinders and dual reservoir, dual outlet (tandem) master cylinders. A tandem master cylinder will have two fluid output ports, one for the front brakes and one for the rear. A single fluid output master cylinder, or "fruitjar," will be plumbed to all four calipers as a single system.

Dual master cylinder pedal systems are used extensively in racecars and have completely separate master cylinder systems for the front and rear brakes. This setup permits easy adjustment of front to rear brake bias with the integrated balance bar assembly.

To determine the appropriate master cylinder and hydra-mechanical combination, review Wilwood's Tech Tip Guide.

Here is another good article:

http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/misc/brake/PF2.jpg

 

[gofer]

You're upgrading to Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Brembo brakes why not "copy exactly" their brake setup? The Evo uses an 8+9 brake booster and a 1 1/16" brake master cylinder with the brake caliper/rotor setup you're installing on your DSM. Quoted directly from your post above...

Keep in mind that auto manufacturers have put many years of experience and a lot of testing into determining the right combination for a given car.

Granted, when I bought my 1 1/16" 3g master cylinder it came with the 8+9 booster and I already had the IM off the car so, in my case, it made sense to install everything and "copy exactly" the Evo setup.

Changing to the 8+9 booster might not effect stopping power but it IMPROVES pedal feel which sucked when I changed to the Brembos, it felt like I was stepping on a wet sponge until I upgraded.

 

[dsm_mike]

You're upgrading to Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Brembo brakes why not "copy exactly" their brake setup? The Evo uses an 8+9 brake booster and a 1 1/16" brake master cylinder with the brake caliper/rotor setup you're installing on your DSM. Quoted directly from your post above...


Granted, when I bought my 1 1/16" 3g master cylinder it came with the 8+9 booster and I already had the IM off the car so, in my case, it made sense to install everything and "copy exactly" the Evo setup.

Changing to the 8+9 booster might not effect stopping power but it IMPROVES pedal feel which sucked when I changed to the Brembos, it felt like I was stepping on a wet sponge until I upgraded.

Besides, if you're already spending $500+ on this setup, whats a few more dollars to complete it? I got my evo booster for $30 on ebay. Now to find the calipers...

 

[ceedawg]

it made sense to install everything and "copy exactly" the Evo setup.

Changing to the 8+9 booster might not effect stopping power but it IMPROVES pedal feel which sucked when I changed to the Brembos, it felt like I was stepping on a wet sponge until I upgraded.

And maybe it could be because of the MC it feels better and stops better. However what you did definitely wont hurt obviously.

I'm only saying that I would try just changing to the bigger master cylinder first,see if that makes a difference instead of having to go thru the trouble of removing the intake mani,the present brake booster. Yes the Evo has a bigger BB but it may not be as important to change on a DSM if the whole effect you are feeling is really just because you now have a bigger master cylinder which is the main reason why you have a better brake feel and braking.

Most if not All major big brake kits at the most only require that you upgrade the master cylinder because internally the piston is bigger which the links I posted states.

That 7-8" brake booster should be plenty big and powerful enough enuff I would imagine and certainly changing the BB wont hurt but is changing it necessary is my point. A bigger Master Cylinder seems to be the key.

Besides, if you're already spending $500+ on this setup, whats a few more dollars to complete it? I got my evo booster for $30 on ebay. Now to find the calipers...

Because chging the BB can be a real pain in the arse for some. Its not easy for everyone to go through dropping the intake mani and then pulling out the Brake booster unless ,1. You have the motor out of the car or 2. You take off the mani. I explained that above.

 

[gofer]

My car was a GS-T from the factory, the brake booster was a 7+8 with a 15/16" master cylinder, and after upgrading to the Evo brakes my pedal felt like a sponge.

FWD DSM brake master cylinder - 15/16"
AWD DSM - 1"
Evo - 1 1/16"​

When you upgrade to Evo brakes, going from AWD DSM 2 piston/1 piston to Brembo 4 piston/2 piston, the BMC must move more (pedal travel) to push enough fluid to force the caliper pistons to clamp onto the rotor. Of course the obvious fix to this is upgrading to a bigger brake master cylinder that's proportional to the caliper upgrade, in this case the 3g 1 1/16". Spongy brake pedal fixed but when one thing changes, so does another unless you compensate.

What I'm trying to say is the brake booster essentially helps you, the driver, engage the brake pedal (using engine vacuum) to stop the car. If the brake master cylinder is over-matched (too big) for the brake booster your pedal feel will be too stiff, almost like you're braking with something stuck under the pedal. Ever try pumping up the pedal with the car off and then pushing it to the firewall?

Just trying to help and make recommendations, ignore what you want but just know that if your brake pedal is stiff as shit you can still install the 3g BB and it will feel OE again.

Do it right, do it once.



EDIT - It's a bit disappointing that I took the time to answer all of your PM's, nearly spoon feeding you the info you need to do this master cylinder/booster upgrade and then, after you've gotten all the info you need, you publicly argue about the upgrade that you've never actually done.

I also found it entertaining that the info you posted to Wilwood's site was great, however, had you continued reading you might have came to the conclusion that the brake booster might be necessary? I would like to give you the opportunity to prove the install un-necessary because I'd like to know myself with ACTUAL results rather than speculation. Proper brake hydraulic pressure at the caliper is 900-1200psi, according to Wilwood, so get a Brembo pressure tester and see the results with the stock master cylinder, upgraded 3g master cylinder, and then the booster! I'm half tempted to do this myself... Genesis Technologies Brake Pressure Test Gauges

Q: I have a soft pedal. How do I cure the problem?

A:Assuming that your spongy pedal is related to the brake installation and not aggressive braking such as that experienced during racing, the most likely culprit is air in the system. See above for proper bleeding of the master cylinder and brake system. A spongy pedal can also occur for a number of other reasons: misaligned caliper, incorrect caliper/master cylinder bore combination and more. See our complete Troubleshooting Guide for a more thorough list of causes and solutions. You can also contact a Wilwood Sales Technician at 805-388-1188 or email Sales/Tech Support.

Q: I have a hard pedal, but the car is very difficult to stop. What is the problem?

A: Common contributors to "hard pedal, won't stop" issues are an oversized master cylinder bore and/or inadequate pedal lever ratio. Another contributing factor is the "aggressiveness" of the pad. Disc brakes require approximately 900-1200 PSI at the caliper for effective functioning. We recommend that you use Wilwood Quick Check Pressure Gauges to measure your pressure at the caliper. If you are not generating the required pressure, we recommend increasing your pedal ratio, and/or going to a smaller bore master cylinder. See our Troubleshooting Guide for more complete information, and make sure you have Wilwood Quick Check Pressure Gauges available to assist you in evaluating the problem. You can also contact a Wilwood Sales Technician at 805-388-1188 or email Sales/Tech Support.

 

[dsm_mike]

Has anyone come up with a way to install the evo rears and retain the parking brake on a 1g? I recall seeing a picture with the evo's installed alongside the oem with the oem only being used for parking. It was a long time ago, but I think mitsumissile posted it. My noob question for today is why cant the whole parking brake assembly be swapped fom a 2g into a 1g?

 

[gofer]

2g and Evo both have a rear drum brake that is operated by the e-brake, the 1g's e-brake is built into the rear caliper.

 

[ceedawg]

My car was a GS-T from the factory, the brake booster was a 7+8 with a 15/16" master cylinder, and after upgrading to the Evo brakes my pedal felt like a sponge.

FWD DSM brake master cylinder - 15/16"
AWD DSM - 1"​

Evo - 1 1/16"​

When you upgrade to Evo brakes, going from AWD DSM 2 piston/1 piston to Brembo 4 piston/2 piston, the BMC must move more (pedal travel) to push enough fluid to force the caliper pistons to clamp onto the rotor. Of course the obvious fix to this is upgrading to a bigger brake master cylinder that's proportional to the caliper upgrade, in this case the 3g 1 1/16". Spongy brake pedal fixed but when one thing changes, so does another unless you compensate.

What I'm trying to say is the brake booster essentially helps you, the driver, engage the brake pedal (using engine vacuum) to stop the car. If the brake master cylinder is over-matched (too big) for the brake booster your pedal feel will be too stiff, almost like you're braking with something stuck under the pedal. Ever try pumping up the pedal with the car off and then pushing it to the firewall?

Just trying to help and make recommendations, ignore what you want but just know that if your brake pedal is stiff as shit you can still install the 3g BB and it will feel OE again.

Do it right, do it once.



EDIT - It's a bit disappointing that I took the time to answer all of your PM's, nearly spoon feeding you the info you need to do this master cylinder/booster upgrade and then, after you've gotten all the info you need, you publicly argue about the upgrade that you've never actually done. I also found it entertaining that the info you posted to Wilwood's site was great, however, had you continued reading you might have came to the conclusion that the brake booster might be necessary? I would like to give you the opportunity to prove the install un-necessary because I'd like to know myself with ACTUAL results rather than speculation. Proper brake hydraulic pressure at the caliper is 900-1200psi, according to Wilwood, so get a Brembo pressure tester and see the results with the stock master cylinder, upgraded 3g master cylinder, and then the booster! I'm half tempted to do this myself... Genesis Technologies Brake Pressure Test Gauges

Whoa Corey why are you being so sensitive!WTF Yes you did respond to my PM's and you certainly have posted great infomation here about your findings which you have proven works! No kidding!

However in our doing research on my car,I told you per our pm's, I found that the BB and MC info was incorrect. You were surprised as admittedly was I . My car is a 2g 95 TSi AWD with the same BB and Master cylinder setup as my friends 98 GST, 7to 8" BB and 15/16" MC not the 1" MC for AWD as you have posted above.
OK . So this has only led me to observe other possibilities for folks instead of going through dropping the intake mani and everything else that would be involved with that. I have also spoke to other folks who have suggested try changing to the bigger 1"+ MC of the 3g which will definitely make a big difference because with alot of big brake kits the MC change would usually be the next solution if one experiences spongy brakes. The present BB may be sufficient. If it does not feel right I'll change the BB.
So its just an idea nothing written in stone but it has been proven on other brands of cars. I just have to prove it on my DSM.


I'm gonna give it a shot,post and let you know after I install my motor.