E85 goo - this time with an attitude

[DSMReviver]

From the test It seems like the tempreature changes e85 to the goo substance. Other have reported that they don't have this problems with their e85 stations. I wounder if this might have to do with how well they blend their e85.

I wounder if there is not enough gasoline in e85 to control the goo or the mixture is not perfect. if you add more gasoline to the e85 mix will it get rid of or control the goo better?

 

[tominatortwo]

Interesting. So I have a couple of questions:

1. Which part of my fuel system isn't compatible?

2. Why have several people with basically stock DSM fuel systems been able to run E85 for 4 years or more with no issues at all?

3. How long would it take for a problem to appear?

4. Could my fuel pump be the problem?






How about you guys go fight it out somewhere, and I'll continue to go with what the chemists have said about the goo.

Metal tanks must be coated with epoxy or moisture drawn in by the E-85 will rust the inside of the tank, then you would have some issues.

The goo is a byproduct of E-85 due to a fuel pump not being E-85 capable most likely.
Pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel

 

[Calan]

Metal tanks must be coated with epoxy or moisture drawn in by the E-85 will rust the inside of the tank, then you would have some issues.

The goo is a byproduct of E-85 due to a fuel pump not being E-85 capable most likely.
Pumps must be capable of operating with electrically conductive ethanol instead of non-conducting dielectric gasoline fuel

Since you said:

Your fuel system is not E-85 compatible.

...and apparently know so much about my particular fuel system, I'll ask again: which part of it is causing the problem?

I'll eliminate a few things for you, since I'm pretty sure you didn't read the entire thread:

1. I built the car from the ground up, including completely reworking the fuel tank, all new lines, etc.... and the tank is spotless. I just checked it thoroughly for any gum, varnish, corrosion, flaking, debris, etc.

2. I use ethanol safe lines, but I'm soaking pieces of them in several solvents and E85 just for the hell of it. As expected, nothing is causing any problems with them at all, including pure methanol which is MUCH more corrosive than E85.

3. My fuel pump is a Deatschwerks pump that is designed and tested for ethanol use.

4. My fuel filter uses a SS 40 micron element. It did collect a lot of buildup due to the crap in the system (which means it works), but it is not the source of the problem.

5. And here's the kicker...I've ran E85 on this same exact system for around 2 years or more with zero issues, other than slight goo buildup on the injector tips that started about a year ago. I've pulled pumps, filters, and injectors several times...so I know this for a fact.

As far as I can tell, that leaves a 2.5" long piece of rubber fuel hose that came with the pump, that connects the pump outlet to the hanger. Since it's submerged, it's possible that the outer layer of it just decided to start dissolving in e85 for some reason after working fine for 10k miles...but I highly doubt that Deatschwerks would include a piece of hose that isn't compatible with ethanol, with a pump that is. But...I'm testing that also just to be sure.

So I'd love to hear what the problem with my system is.

 

[arrowhead]

Excellent effort I congratulate you.

 

[tominatortwo]

What type of material is your tank made out of?

 

[m_0ney_pit]

So it seems that e85 has a certain amount of a amine functionalized polymer in it. This may be intended to disperse carbon particles that are found in the fuel system after normal use to keep the fuel components from getting clogged with agglomerated particles.

It definitely is possible that some stations are putting to much of this dispersant in the fuel as they blend their own mixtures, but that does not explain why its black. If particles weren't being coated with the polymer it would simply pass through the system and be burned. But then again to high of a weight percent of the polymer may be causing some gelling...

Ethanol isn't such a good solvent so use if you want to keep particles in suspension and stop them from agglomerating, which would explain why the particles do not stay suspended after they have been coated with the dispersant. Definilty not as good a low polarity solvent as toloune, xylenes, benzene or any of the hexanes.
If water was added to the e85 it may actually help the particles stay suspended because an ethanol/water system will allow the particles to develop charging at their surface which may make them more stable in solution. I've never worked with a collodial system with a polymeric dispersant like the one found in e85 but some polymers support positive charging when in solvent which can be very effective at keeping particles dispersed and unagglomerated.

 

[forcefed86]

MTBE sounds like a likely candidate... This would also explain why some people never see this "goo" and some do.

Since the 1970s, most non ethanol gasoline sold has a component called MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether) added to the base gasoline to increase oxygen in the fuel, boosting octane. Though this additive is being phased out due to concerns over pollution of drinking water aquifers, it still is in use in many areas. Mixing ethanol with MTBE fuels creates a gel-like substance that gums up fuel and combustion systems.

One of the barriers to the production of ethanol from cellulosic biomass is the toughness of the cellulosic structure, and its resistance to chemical and enzymatic hydrolysis and insolubility in most solvents. Accordingly, pre-treatment such as steam explosion to break down the structure is a necessary first step. Now, researchers at the Japan Agency for Marine-Earth Science and Technology have discovered that cellulose undergoes a transformation from a crystalline form to an amorphous gel-like one very similar to a starch gel in water at high temperature (320° C) and pressure 25 (MPa). 2 Comments

http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/technology/biofuels/ethanol-fuel/



Ethanol Fuels and Gas Tank Problems, iboats.com How To Library

http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f67/personal-fuel-study-ethanol-mtbe-83208/

 

[Calan]

I've had the flu for a couple of days so I haven't done much of anything but stay in bed, but the jars have been soaking and the pump has been running almost non-stop. Some of what I see so far is expected, some isn't.

First up, the jars of E85 + Sta-bil with pieces of hose soaking in them. As expected, all of the liquids have had very little (if any) effect on either the SS line that I run or a piece of stock fuel hose.

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As for the pump test, I tossed the piece of hose I was using to connect the pump outlet to the hanger into the jar, and let it run for over 24 hours...and I didn't notice any change (or at least it was barely perceptible) in how the E85 looked. I switched out that piece of hose for a piece of cheap Goodyear fuel/emission hose, and did notice a slight darkening after another 20 hours or so...but it's not extreme, and there is no buildup or goo.

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Here's the real surprise: I soaked a smaller piece of that same Goodyear hose in pure gas (right) for 20 hours , and it really had an effect. The jar of gas with a piece of my SS line (middle) had some slight change in color, but it wasn't really darker...a brighter but clearer orange if anything.

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My guess is that it's the outside layer of the Goodyear hose that is dissolving, since that is the same hose that is connecting the pump to the jar in my pump test...and it showed no effect until I submerged a piece of it in the jar with the pump. It's a bit weird that gas had much more of an effect on it than the E85 did though.

As for what caused the goo to so rapidly crash out of solution and clog my pump sock, I still have no idea.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

FWIW, I started soaking a piece of 8an pushlock hose in a jar with e85. The test is a day in the making with no visible results.

You can pick up the gates submersible hose at any local NAPA. Although this stuff is expensive (24.95ft) it is made for fuel to contact the inside and outside.

Not trying to jack the thread and I will post up some results, if any, in a week or so. Thank you for looking into this problem and all the information.

Robert

 

[Calan]

Thread-jack all you want Robert... the more good info, the better.

 

[m_0ney_pit]

why would this be a surprise to you? Gas has almost every volatile nasty solvent known to man in it.
The inner part of cheap fuel hose is usually viton or nitrile and its bound to an outer layer by fiberglass thread thats made of "something else" I'm guessing some type of butyl rubber because it comes off on you hands when you handle it.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I run a "golden rod" canister type filter from tractor supply. They are cheap ($24, $8 replacements) and hold up great in e85. They have a much larger surface area than those tiny SS mesh type filters so they do not "clog" easily. Not to mention they filter down to 5-10 microns. I also use these inline with my turbo oil supply with great success. After over a year in e85 I did notice some of the adhesive in the filter was brittle when I cut it open. But I change them every winter now anyway.

Good luck I'll be very interested in your findings!


Dutton-Lainson® Goldenrod® 595 Spin-On Fuel Filter - 3958383 | Tractor Supply Company

Does the quoted 50psi limit bother you? 6.5psi of boost 'aint much.

Feel free to let me have it if I'm being thick.

why would this be a surprise to you? Gas has almost every volatile nasty solvent known to man in it.
The inner part of cheap fuel hose is usually viton or nitrile and its bound to an outer layer by fiberglass thread thats made of "something else" I'm guessing some type of butyl rubber because it comes off on you hands when you handle it.

Gotta say, although I would never suggest it after reading through this thread, a case could be made from the jar evidence - soaking hose in gas>gas does weird shit to hose>weird shit gets deposited>e85 removes it from tank walls/fuel passages>goo.

And then there's still problems like is that 2.5" section of hose truly responsible? Is it years of some other hose that has been depositing itself in your tank with regular old gas?

But only an idiot would see a correlation after seeing such theories "debunked".

 

[Calan]

Gotta say, although I would never suggest it after reading through this thread, a case could be made from the jar evidence - soaking hose in gas>gas does weird shit to hose>weird shit gets deposited>e85 removes it from tank walls/fuel passages>goo.

But my problem rapidly appeared while E85 was being run. There was never any gas involved that would have caused any problem. (The pump and other components have been pulled a few times during continuous E85 use, with no noticeable issues).

And then there's still problems like is that 2.5" section of hose truly responsible? Is it years of some other hose that has been depositing itself in your tank with regular old gas?

The piece of submerged hose I've been running didn't appear to cause any issues. It was the Goodyear hose (that I don't use) that started breaking down...and that was apparently only the outer layer.

 

[tominatortwo]

I've talked to other local E-85 users with the same issue- goo......I'll stick with C-16.

Good Luck with solving the problem, hope you find the answer to the goo mystery.

 

[Calan]

Good Luck with solving the problem, hope you find the answer to the goo mystery.

Thanks...me too.

It's been fantastic for two years up until this happened, and I think this was a very isolated and strange incident. An easily accessible 105 octane fuel that's cheaper than 87 pump piss is still hard to argue with.

 

[gofer]

Any chance you could add heat to the E85 as the pumps circulating it, like on a hotplate set to 180 - 200* which would be the temp of the fuel rail, then after 20 - 30min of heat let it cool to room temp with no pump circulation. If the un-used fuel that makes its way back to the tank (or the raw fuel that settles in the tip of the injector after the car shuts off), which is certainly heat soaked a bit from the temperatures under the hood, somehow turns to black goo. Maybe the E85, once heated up, changes a bit chemically and once it "cools" it separates and creates that black goo from separation.

To me the above makes sense, the only thing I've seen this "black goo" is on the tips of my injectors which see the most heat out of the entire fuel system.

Or I'm just blowing smoke.

 

[Calan]

Corey... I don't have a way to add heat safely; I was nervous enough about the wiring being in open air.

 

[gofer]

How about heating the fuel up first, in the jar, then install the pump and run it for 10 minutes, letting it cool to room temp?

I've got a spare fuel pump/connector that I'd have no hard feelings about ruining, I might find a mason jar and do a few tests and see if I can't duplicate the "black goo" gripe.

 

[Calan]

How about heating the fuel up first, in the jar...

How do I do that without a risk of the jar cracking and my house going boom?

I guess I could ask to borrow my neighbors kitchen stove.

 

[abaum565]

How do I do that without a risk of the jar cracking and my house going boom?

I guess I could ask to borrow my neighbors kitchen stove.

what about a candle warmer? With a long extension cord to the middle of nowhere, with your wires for you pump extended so you can activate that also

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I was wondering the same thing about adding heat. I could not think of a safe way to do it and the closest thing I could get to a hot plate only goes to 120* give or take.

I guess the heat could be added using a hot plate with the mason jar and E85 with no lid??? After the fuel reaches temp, add the makeshift fuel hanger and let it circulate???? I will check around and see if I can obtain a hot plate that is good for 200*. I have a LP 255 that I took out a while back and could be a great candidate.

Robert

 

[gofer]

This is a shot in the dark but something I've considered to be the issue, or I'm high and right on this.

Scenario:​

After 10 minutes of driving the car at operating temps the injectors have gotten reasonably hot through heat transfer, maybe the E85 itself isn't hot but the injectors being in the engine are. Once you park the car and shut it off residual Ethanol pools in the injector tip and through heat transfer gets hot, then evaporates leaving a byproduct of something in the E85. Thus creating the infamous black sticky goo build up which only seems to occur at the tip of the injector and, for some, on top of the intake valves.

With the above being said though, maybe just pulling an injector out of a motor, or heating it up somehow, then put a few drops of Ethanol in it and let it sit and cool to room temp.

Craig, search diethyl-ether and see if you think that could be the "goo" building at the injector tips. It doesn't necessarily have to be creating black goo, maybe its actually clear and turns black from soot.

 

[turboglenn]

haven't ya'll figured this out yet..aliens man, aliens..plain and simple
good work and nice thought provoking thread calan!

 

[Zefal151]

haven't ya'll figured this out yet..aliens man, aliens..plain and simple
good work and nice thought provoking thread calan!

Im about to get setup with e85 so really interested in this thread... but i think Turboglenn is right... its the aliens trying to hold us DSMrs back since we are making leaps and bounds closer to time travel

 

[MidShipCivic]

As I'm watching this test run and checking things out, I'm wondering if the higher voltage raised the temperature of the pump (and thus the fuel) to some critical point where the stuff cooked out. That jar is pretty damn warm at 12v since there isn't much fuel to absorb and dissipate the heat. I did find the greatest concentration of the goo on and around the pump, where the fuel temperature would have been the highest.

That's not a valid comparison when the pump is on your car its working harder at pressure and will build up heat more than a pump running at pretty much a near 0 pressure. You could be right though soooo................

Take the E85 heat it up! ( not near the flash point of the fuel though )


And why is it this car and not all the other ppl running E85?

That would also explain why it is normally found at the injector tips sitting in the head. It's even possible that the injector port design on our heads run hotter than other cars, thus explaining why it shows up more on DSMs.

there is still gasoline in the e85... and it could be eating at it as it circulates. Weird comparison but, a waterfall forms, because water takes bits of the ground it flows over, over time.

Gasoline does eat the rubber as seen and you're running it through the hose.

Just a reasonable presumption.