E85 goo - this time with an attitude

[Calan]

That's not a valid comparison when the pump is on your car its working harder at pressure and will build up heat more than a pump running at pretty much a near 0 pressure.

The pump in the jar may actually be working harder depending on how much of a restriction the line and small volume of fuel is putting on it, and definitely for a much longer amount of time. It has been operating continuously at atmospheric pressure, while in the car it only runs for 20 minutes at a time at low pressure every 9 to 10 hours on average.

And, even though it's at only 12v vs. the 15v of the boost-a-pump, it's probably running hotter due to there being so little fuel to absorb and dissipate the heat, compared to a 13 gallon tank with air blowing over it at highway speeds.

Gasoline does eat the rubber as seen and you're running it through the hose.

It appears to affect only the outside of just the Goodyear hose...which I'm not running on my car.

 

[MidShipCivic]

The pump in the jar may actually be working harder depending on how much of a restriction the line and small volume of fuel is putting on it, and definitely for a much longer amount of time. It has been operating continuously at atmospheric pressure, while in the car it only runs for 20 minutes at a time every 9 to 10 hours on average.

And, even though it's at only 12v vs. the 15v of the boost-a-pump, it's probably running hotter due to there being so little fuel to absorb and dissipate the heat, compared to a 13 gallon tank with air blowing over it at highway speeds.

I'm not understanding something bare with me !

What's your base fuel pressure you're not using a rising rate regulator on the car I'm sure it's pushing at that controlled leak! I was thinking corrosive affects of high pressure fluid along with the gas but you're not running that hose anywhere on the car.

I thought DSM 1g awd fuel tanks were 16 gallons an old 90's honda civic tank is 13 gallons! You're not using an oem tank I thought you do I did see that you have a oem pump carrier assembly.

It appears to affect only the outside of just the Goodyear hose...which I'm not running on my car.

Whats on the car? The -an braided rubber? Even the portion that returns to the return line ?

I've accidentally ripped old fuel hose at times and replaced it with new rubber it was always felt nice and strong while the older rubber felt ''hard'' in and outside its affecting it for sure I think.

 

[Calan]

So I built myself a mini still , and heated up some of the E85 + Sta-bil to about 155*F with a torch, which was about as far as I wanted to push it at night on my back porch.

The white beam of light is actually a glass lab thermometer that didn't want to be photographed for some reason.

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FWIW - I didn't notice anything other than ethanol raining down from the lid of the jar.

 

[MidShipCivic]

So it didn't gum out ... myth busted. 155F way higher than anytemp the fuel will see outside of the combustion chamber.

 

[Calan]

Well not at 155*F and no flow or pressure. I really didn't expect much under those conditions though.

155F way higher than anytemp the fuel will see outside of the combustion chamber.

I would hope so.

 

[Calan]

Sorry... didn't see your first post David.

What's your base fuel pressure you're not using a rising rate regulator on the car I'm sure it's pushing at that controlled leak!

I am running a rising rate regulator. But the car is usually pulling around -10 to -15hg vacuum while cruising, so the pump would be operating at quite a bit less than the 37psi base pressure. At atmospheric pressure in the jar test, it's actually flowing more even though it's at a lower pressure. Not sure if that would make a difference or not.

I thought DSM 1g awd fuel tanks were 16 gallons an old 90's honda civic tank is 13 gallons! You're not using an oem tank I thought you do I did see that you have a oem pump carrier assembly.

It's an OEM tank. The FSM states that it is 15.5 gallons, but I've completely drained and filled it, and the most it will hold is about 13.4 gallons. There is no way the lines and rail are holding 2 gallons.

Whats on the car? The -an braided rubber? Even the portion that returns to the return line ?

Everything in front of the firewall is the braided SS line. The small pieces that connect the hard lines at the tank are new high-pressure lined EFI hose (I forget exactly what, but I bought the good stuff when I rebuilt that end of the car).

 

[MidShipCivic]

Well not at 155*F and no flow or pressure. I really didn't expect much under those conditions though.

Okay, roughly 155F.

I just don't see anything happening with flow or pressure, based on what you've already told us.

It's an OEM tank. The FSM states that it is 15.5 gallons, but I've completely drained and filled it, and the most it will hold is about 13.4 gallons. There is no way the lines and rail are holding 2 gallons.

Wow...I've learn something new. The 90-91 ECB (FSM) states 1.8L, 2.0 and 2.0T all have 16 gallon tanks.

 

[Calan]

I just don't see anything happening with flow or pressure, based on what you've already told us.

Yeah... me either. It's still a mystery.

I'm starting to like Glen's alien explanation.

Wow...I've learn something new. The 90-91 ECB (FSM) states 1.8L, 2.0 and 2.0T all have 16 gallon tanks.

I know I read 15.5 somewhere. I'll see if I can find it. It definitely doesn't hold anywhere near that though.

EDIT: FSM states 16 gallons, Chilton's manual states 15.9.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Glad that you heated the fuel and not me. Really though, thanks for the info. I am not sure how else we can explain this??? The tip of the injector is out for your situation as the "goo" has to be circulating through the system. I thought heat may play a factor, but with constantly flowing fuel, How hot can the fuel get????

I am starting to run out of ideas and looking at this diethyl-ether it is the only thing we can not rule out. The idea is that this stuff collects carbon or soot to make it black. My question is where would this soot come from inside the fuel system?? I will continue to ponder this idea in my little brain and see what I can come up with.

Robert

 

[forcefed86]

Does the quoted 50psi limit bother you? 6.5psi of boost 'aint much.

Feel free to let me have it if I'm being thick.



Gotta say, although I would never suggest it after reading through this thread, a case could be made from the jar evidence - soaking hose in gas>gas does weird shit to hose>weird shit gets deposited>e85 removes it from tank walls/fuel passages>goo.

And then there's still problems like is that 2.5" section of hose truly responsible? Is it years of some other hose that has been depositing itself in your tank with regular old gas?

But only an idiot would see a correlation after seeing such theories "debunked".

Not being thick at all! You are 100% correct. These filters have been used for some time at the strip here. Started out with local farmers using them back when e85 first came out. Old farmer with a turbo ourlaw car is the one that told me about it. I've run 70+ psi of fuel pressure through mine and never had a problem. I've also run 110+ psi of oil pressure through one.... again not signs of stress/failure. I have cut them open and compared them side by side to my oil filters. Mic'd the thickness of metal used etc. They are damn near identical as far as I can tell. I'm not gonna suggest anyone else use one, but I don't plan on stopping anytime soon. The rated pressure max may have to do with flow as well. There is big difference between 12gpm through 1" lines at 50psi and the pressures and volume we run.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

But my problem rapidly appeared while E85 was being run. There was never any gas involved that would have caused any problem. (The pump and other components have been pulled a few times during continuous E85 use, with no noticeable issues).



The piece of submerged hose I've been running didn't appear to cause any issues. It was the Goodyear hose (that I don't use) that started breaking down...and that was apparently only the outer layer.

This is turning into Kennedy's Magic Bullet.

Not being thick at all! You are 100% correct. These filters have been used for some time at the strip here. Started out with local farmers using them back when e85 first came out. Old farmer with a turbo ourlaw car is the one that told me about it. I've run 70+ psi of fuel pressure through mine and never had a problem. I've also run 110+ psi of oil pressure through one.... again not signs of stress/failure. I have cut them open and compared them side by side to my oil filters. Mic'd the thickness of metal used etc. They are damn near identical as far as I can tell. I'm not gonna suggest anyone else use one, but I don't plan on stopping anytime soon.

Nifty.

 

[Calan]

Glad that you heated the fuel and not me.

For some reason, it was quite nerve racking holding a blowtorch to a glass jar filled with fuel on my back porch.

I don't remember stuff like that ever making me blink when I was a dumb kid...and it was my dad's house that could go up in flames at any minute and not my own.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I don't remember stuff like that ever making me blink when I was a dumb kid...and it was my dad's house that could go up in flames at any minute and not my own.

 

[forcefed86]

For some reason, it was quite nerve racking holding a blowtorch to a glass jar filled with fuel on my back porch.

I don't remember stuff like that ever making me blink when I was a dumb kid...and it was my dad's house that could go up in flames at any minute and not my own.

Haha! Sounds fun! Kinda like putting our nitrous bottles in the oven before a big race... Something just felt wrong about it.

You could use an aquarium heater and get it up to 90-100* easy/safely. A cheap hot plate/coffee warmer works great as well. Not that you haven't already gone completely above and beyond... But I still think we are missing a key element. I believe it is some sort of chemical transformation taking place at the tip on the injector. I'll donate some old injectors for you to try if you'd like?

I've had several chances to work around carb'd e85 cars and have never seen anything like this on them. If it were as simple as something in the fuel system breaking down I think it would have shown up on these cars. It may have something to do with warm high pressure fuel rapidly cooling and changing state as it is sprayed out of the injector.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

This is a shot in the dark but something I've considered to be the issue, or I'm high and right on this.

Scenario:​

After 10 minutes of driving the car at operating temps the injectors have gotten reasonably hot through heat transfer, maybe the E85 itself isn't hot but the injectors being in the engine are. Once you park the car and shut it off residual Ethanol pools in the injector tip and through heat transfer gets hot, then evaporates leaving a byproduct of something in the E85. Thus creating the infamous black sticky goo build up which only seems to occur at the tip of the injector and, for some, on top of the intake valves.

With the above being said though, maybe just pulling an injector out of a motor, or heating it up somehow, then put a few drops of Ethanol in it and let it sit and cool to room temp.

Craig, search diethyl-ether and see if you think that could be the "goo" building at the injector tips. It doesn't necessarily have to be creating black goo, maybe its actually clear and turns black from soot.

This is my theory exactly. It would also explain the goo formation on the head port passages and the backs of intake valves. All places fuel sits and evaporates after shutdown.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

I built a injector cleaner a few weeks ago. The cleaner was designed by Jafro on Youtube. I made a video of the project but have yet to post it on youtube. I could heat some E-85 and flow a 1/2 gallon or so at a time through some spare injectors. I can not think of a way to recirculate the fuel to make this a continues process though

I could replace the switch with a blinker relay to fire the injector in short pulses but again I have no way to recycle the fuel into the injector cleaner. If this would cure some of your curiosities, please let me know.

FWIW, there is a air nipple at the top of the photo. A regulated pressure source is plugged in. There is a coupler at the bottom that is drilled out to accept an injector. The bracket keeps the injector from becoming a projectile and the injector is fired using a AA battery, momentary switch, and a spare plug. I will try to post the video tonight and post a link.

Robert

 

[forcefed86]

Can’t be something as simple as evaporation IMO.

Seems like if that were the case we would see this goo on all injector tips, carbs, etc. Not just a few. I’ve known several locals with carb guys using the same gas stations as I had issues with and never had a problem. To my knowledge no carb has ever seen this kind of build up (boosted or NA).

Something is intermittently producing this on FI systems only. To make it more complicated it seems to be worse dependant on the gas station or gas station type used. (additives I’d guess). Way to many variables here.

What if the blender/older gas stations aren’t cleaning the tanks properly before filling them with ethanol? Then funneling all the crap from the tanks into our cars? filters will stop most of the "gunk" But chemicals and additives woudl pass through filters. There could be 60 years of MBTE gunk stuck in the bottom of those tanks.

If you could get your own pure ethanol straight from the plant and run it that would also be a great test. Collecting a much of this crap as possible an sending out for testing would probably be the cheapest route. I could have sworn someone did this on the evo forums awhile back. Can’t seem to find the thread. I do remember it was by product of the ethanol itself, not traces of rubber/fuel lines etc.

 

[Calan]

Something that has me puzzled (more so than the other unexplained stuff), is that when my pump blocked off during this event, the injectors weren't all that bad (at least not when I pulled them just a little while earlier on the same tank of E85). I've seen them much worse when the pump sock and filter looked fine.

In this case, I think it had to be some combination of temperature, pressure, and the Sta-bil additive. The "perfect storm" for E85 goo.

 

[MidShipCivic]

Anyone realized that?

E85 isn't really a better solvent than gasoline it's just cleaner burning.

 

[Ravenous]

I was looking up volatility information of E85 and came across this writeup about how gas additives in the E85 forming deposits and how the standard is changing or needs to be changed:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=volatility%20of%20e85&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CDoQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Foxytane.com%2Fmystery%2Fengine%2520deposits%2Fethanol%2520deposits%25202-08.pdf&ei=b6CjTpD8IsiRiALJz8TgCA&usg=AFQjCNHEVN1l6ne71PMVJFaF2EUEXT4CQA&sig2=JiJj6q-j2vxg4SintJwgZw&cad=rja

Interesting read that may/may not shed light on what is going on.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

That is a good read. Although the OP's treatment was "E-85 approved" it could have still been the additive for the perfect storm.

FWIW I have noticed no change in the E-85/fuel hose soaking test that has been ongoing for weeks now. I will post pictures in a bit but when I looked last night there where no visible difference's from the day I poured it.

Robert

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

I just read the whole thread, And I'm curious how long the pump booster had been on the car.
I think that if it was installed just before this happened, the increased charge, and heat would have caused this.

 

[Calan]

I just read the whole thread, And I'm curious how long the pump booster had been on the car.
I think that if it was installed just before this happened, the increased charge, and heat would have caused this.

Slow day at work?

It's definitely a possibility, considering I still haven't found any other explanation. It doesn't make much sense, but issues with my car rarely do.

I really believe it was caused mainly by a minor overdose of the Stabil, possibly enhanced by increased heat or parasitic current at the pump (as you alluded to). I've been running straight 91 ever since, and pulled the entire fuel system a couple of nights ago for another inspection and everything is spotless. I'll be switching back to E85 in a few days (this time without the Stabil), and we'll see what happens.

 

[Gasolinebaptism]

Keep using that pump booster.. If you want to be the guinea pig anyways.
It's my theory that the pump was rated for E85. No problem there with a 12V supply. Once you add in the booster to make it 15V, there is some current passing through the ethanol. Not much though. Could be a bit passing across the pump or some positive current moving to ground on the chassis.

And it is a slow day at work, gotta wait for IT to install some software..
And I'm on tuners waiting for someone to reply to my damn thread!!

Just curious Calan, any idea how much power a set of 1000cc injectors can support with E85?

 

[Tigerhorns]

Man I never new of the goo that comes with E85. Im in the process of switching to E85 now im reconsidering. 93 is good enough for me if this is what can happen. Hope you get this worked out.