E85 goo - this time with an attitude

[Calan]

Man I never new of the goo that comes with E85. Im in the process of switching to E85 now im reconsidering. 93 is good enough for me if this is what can happen. Hope you get this worked out.

This is way, WAY out of the ordinary. Don't let this isolated and as of yet unexplained weirdness turn you off of E85.

Under normal circumstances, as long as you run a tank of gas every now and then and don't let the E85 sit for more than a couple of weeks, it is an excellent cheap "race gas" that is hard to beat.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

Tigerhorns Man I never new of the goo that comes with E85. Im in the process of switching to E85 now im reconsidering. 93 is good enough for me if this is what can happen. Hope you get this worked out.

This was a very, very harsh case of the goo. Normally it shows up lightly to moderately on the ends of injectors, but this is after a much longer duration of use. I have been using this fuel all year and barley noticed any buildup on the end of my injectors when I changed them. Do not let this one freak case turn you away from E85 it is an outstanding fuel if you can feed enough to your motor.

Robert

Man your fast ^

 

[Calan]

Man your fast ^

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[talondsp1]

Craig, why don't you put in the E98 since we have it now. Tune for it, and drive it for a while, then check and see if there is any (normal) goo. I want to see if the goo goes away with E98.

I will put it in my car when I get some time. I am getting my house ready to sell, and It has been crazy around here. So much to do.

 

[6damian6]

OP, do you know of other people getting e85 from the same location as you did? if so do they suffer from the goo also?

 

[Calan]

Craig, why don't you put in the E98 since we have it now. Tune for it, and drive it for a while, then check and see if there is any (normal) goo. I want to see if the goo goes away with E98.

Will do.

I also want to experiment with some of the other blends as well, just to see where the knock threshold falls and if I see the goo with them. There is a pretty interesting semi-related thread that popped up a few days ago, where we have been discussing octane and different ethanol blends.

OP, do you know of other people getting e85 from the same location as you did? if so do they suffer from the goo also?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody has ever seen anything like this...ever... from any station.

 

[6damian6]

I ditched e85 after about 3 weeks of use, i had a brand new set of pte 1600s stick wide open and had about a 1/2 gallon maybe more of e85 in my oil pan . I had the goo on the tips of my injectors and the intake runners were caked with it also, i just never thought about pulling the pump to check for it there also.

I personally believe the problems lies with the supplier of e85, some people never experience the goo or if they do its minimal, But that theory would be debunked quickly if 2 cars went to the same station and one car gets the goo and the other didn't.

 

[Outrun Talon]

I only fill my Talon up with whatever the "Premium" gas is wherever I go and I avoid ethanol like the plague. It's threads like these that scare the crap out of me. I work for a mechanic and I've seen a lot of really clogged up fuel filters/pumps and it never ceases to amaze me how unpure or nasty fuel can be. After seeing or hearing about horror stories like the one in this thread, I am honestly amazed more people don't have problems with their cars.

P.S. Seafoam is the nectar of the Gods. Seriously, I've seen this stuff work miracles. I worked on a Suburu Forester that we getting 14 MPG and after a can of Seafoam in the crankcase and gas tank it went to 21 MPG. The stuff keeps everything so clean, Seafoam is awesome.

 

[Calan]

I'm still completely lost on what could have caused this, but...

After putting the Deatschwerks pump back in and running it for a couple of weeks with no issues (still on 91), it died. Electrically it seems fine, but there is some contamination somewhere that caused it to all of a sudden start dropping pressure. Once again, I have to give props to Deatschwerks. The owner called me today with the preliminary results of what they found, and they are warranting the pump.

I now have a sample of the black crap after evaporating off some of the fuel that I used to initially clean the pump. I'm working on getting a hookup at OU's chemistry department to see if I can find someone to analyze it.

 

[gofer]

No black goo on my injectors after a year of just E85 , I did find some in the intake ports though. Just thought I'd post my findings...

I still think it happens from the Ethanol atomizing then getting hot (from the CC) and then cooling; whats left is the "goo" or diethyl ether.

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[cola]

similar thread in which this one is quoted- E85 Fuel Stabilizer? - Mazdaspeed Forums

Also a good read on e85. If you believe what the diesel tech says, and I agree, id come to the same conclusion of gofer.

 

[forcefed86]

Have you seen this?

Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85?

Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."

"Well, here is what I did just so everyone is clear. I filled a 40mL vial with E85 and blew it dry with nitrogen gas and mild heating (about 150*F). After there was no fuel left, I placed it under high vacuum to remove any remaining volatiles for about an hour. I was left with a clear sticky residue that smelled bad - like nasty frying oil. I dissolved this sample in the NMR solvent and analyzed it and it IS the same goo that was on the injector. There was smaller amounts of some other stuff in it as well, but the same peaks I saw in the black goo were in this residue. The black goo IS coming from the E85. It isn't naturally black, though. I suspect it just has soot mixed in with it that is giving it the color.

So the next challenge is figuring out why is this crap in our fuel, and if it is in everyone's fuel (particularly people who aren't having this problem)."

THE BLACK GOO - E 85 beware | Galant VR-4 > Technical Discussions | GalantVR-4.org Mitsubishi Galant VR4 Forum

 

[GSLENK]

whats left is the "goo" or diethyl ether.

That ether? you mean that sh!t that makes your soul burn slow?

Man, I have plans for E85 in the future. I hope the MD supply is clean, and hopefully there are new built from the ground up stations to avoid this.

I read this thread and the other long thread somewhere else (I think evo'nm) and based on this one guys process, he evaporated his pump sample, as well as a few donated samples to find a remainder of goo (again all in Colorado... but that shouldn't matter). He analyzed it and it is consistent with the black goo (probably black because of soot and not fuel lines...)

Another key point to rule out electric charges/grounding is that they create double bonds, and the goo only contains single bonds (I'm not a chemist, but this is the conclusion I have drawn from the available info)

Also, The main guy doing all the tests has been shut-up by the ethanol suppliers since he hasn't updated his thread in a year or more.

I'm with gofer's evaporation theory, during the engine heat soak cycle after shutdown. I hope the E85 quality improves soon. Not only is E85 support weak because its sustenance is through subsidization, but if this problem remains, It may fail as a mainstream alternative fuel. Which is bad for us, and the hippies.

 

[forcefed86]

Pica always bring a thread back to life right? Still having issues here in KS. tried switching gas stations and injector types with no luck. It's even found it's way into my piston dish, was clogging up the valve reliefs in my 4g63 as well. This stuff sucks!


Few of my buick 3.8. I just blew the bejesus out of the HG.

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Ends up all over my intake, pistons etc. Will wipe out with gasoline and scotch brite pad pretty easily.

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[WES_393]

Nevermind. Gopher's link below explains it all.

 

[gofer]

Found this on NASIOC awhile back - E-85 Injector Build-Up

This is what I've chalked it up to be since the guy that posted it seems credible and, from my experience, has come up with the same "fix" and run a tank of 91oct through the fuel system to keep the "goo" away.

So how do we clean up the deposits if an engine is prone to them for whatever reason? Put "normal" gasoline blends in the tank and it will go away within 1 tank. You don't even need to pull the injectors.

 

[Hal]

Lucas Oil Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner

 

[WES_393]

Lucas Oil Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner

Injectors Valve Seats Combustion Chambers Contains Oxidation Inhibitors to stabilize fuel and prevents varnish & gum formation in Ethanol & Gasoline

So Lucas might agree with the Oxidation part of my theory.

Hal, I assume you've personally tried this product with good results?

Found this on NASIOC awhile back - E-85 Injector Build-Up

The deposits primarily consist of "Poly Iso Butylene," or PIB, a cleaning additive in the gasoline portion of commercial E85 blends.

What we do know based on GM's research is that PolyEther Amine or "PEA" , which can/used to be found in Techron products, cleans valve deposits but does not clean injectors with this problem. In fact, too much of fuel system cleaner could make the problem worse.

That's some great info! If you posted that earlier you could have saved me some grey matter.

I didn't consider the gasoline additives as a possible reactant, but it makes perfect sense. And lower fuel flow promoting Goo buildup would explain a lot too. I'm sure my insta-spool 16g created a much higher average IDC than my Holset setup does, for obvious reasons. Somehow I can't see Craig as much of a lead-foot either, so his IDC average is probably in the low range as well.

But would that mean that larger injectors are more prone to Goo buildup due to lower overall IDC's? Or would they be less prone due to more flow at the same IDC as smaller injectors?

 

[forcefed86]

The Lucas is basically paint thinner in a jar with green dye. Buy yourself a gallon of paint thinner and run that. It's all petroleum distillates.

I narrowed it down to crappy gas stations awhile back as well. I have a straight gas tune and run a tank of 91 every month or so. Seems to take care of it. I tried using e30 for awhile thinking the higher percentage of gas would solve my problems. Still had the goo with e30 though.

You guys should search a little harder.

The goo was actually analyzed on a molecular level.

What it is, is known.

How it forms is implied from what it is.

It's has nothing to do with "crappy" gas stations.

Hal

I researched alot. I Think I read the same article your talking about. Where the EVO guy sent out a sample to by analyzed as well. They still don't know what it is or where it comes from 100%. (in that article anyway)

What I do know is some gas stations have the issue and some don't so it is fuel related. Not a problem with my fuel system like rubber from hoses or gunk in your tank. If I drive 15minutes out of town and use the station in the farm community the ethanol always tests in the 80+ range on the ethanol tester and never gunks up my fuel system. If I go to the blender station 5 minutes from my house I have gunk issues every time. ethanol percentages are all over the board as well. I've seen as low as 50% and as high as 90%. Not that the ethanol percentage is really relevant. But I have noticed the blender stations tend to have the issue more than the stations that sell straight E85.

 

[redrkt]

This is interesting. I had the same exact issue as the original poster, and it was ~the end of July/beginning of August of 2011. I searched all over to see if anyone else had the issue, and all I found was a similar issue on some V8 forum. Interesting Calan had the same issue ~2 months later. The car basically sat thru 2012, and I'm going to try to get it out back this year.

The car with the issue has a 5 gallon cell, 2 -6 outlets each to a wally 392 inline pump with a Earls filter(same type of "pipe screen" filter) before each pump. They then go into a Y fitting with a -6 into the engine compartment to a Aeromotive "canister type"inline filter, then to a stock rail with Bosch pintle 1600's. One pump runs constant while the other comes on over 15 psi. Aero regulator with -6 return to cell.

The main issue I have is with the prepump filters clogging. It doesn't take long after cleaning them, it was noticeable after a couple days of daily driving. You can tell by the sound of the pump running it was being restricted. The Aero filter was plugged as well, so I removed it for the time being. The injectors however, were not bad at all.
Another interesting point is I was running E85 in my other car (daily driver) at the same time (and since then) from the same place with no issues at all. That car had a stock fuel system other than a wally 190 intank and PTE 1000cc injectors.

I thought it was the foam in the cell so I removed it, no help. Soaked a piece in E85 for a year with no issues. I thought maybe it was the fuel line we used Aeroquip socketless, but I don't think it is after soaking it in E85 too. I watched some videos by Injector Dynamics about Fuel systems and found them interesting:

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There are ~5 more cool videos to watch too. Anyhow, I'm starting to think it may be an issue with high fuel temp and pressure drop pre pump causing the goo to build up so fast there. I am contemplating installing a fuel cooler or "cool can".
It could also be due to the limited surface area of the filters. I've also thought of just running with no filters and watch the injectors to see how fast it builds up there. I saw the post about the ATL desicant filter for the cell vent, and it is intriguing. I also saw the post about the Lucas E85 treatment. I suppose it's worth a shot, it would be nice if the solution is that simple. Sorry for the long post, it's been a while since I've posted.

 

[redrkt]

I eliminated all the filters in the fuel system and so far haven't had any more issues. The injector tips look fine too, but I will still try to run a few gallons of gas thru the system to keep it clean. The station where I get my E85 recently switched where the pump was located so maybe that could have a positive effect.

I did some E85 testing today with my Quickfuel water tester and it tested 90%. It still had the same snotty like substance at the top in the gas though. I wonder if this is the stuff causing the issues. So I added a few drops of Riselone Ethanol treatment (similar to the Lucas stuff) to the test tube and shook it up. This time when it settled and separated the snotty stuff was barely noticeable and the gas portion looked much cleaner. It looks like the Ethanol treatment does actually do something, I will try it in the next 5 gallons.

 

[forcefed86]

I know this thread is old and dead but I figure this may help some.


http://codsm.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3965



Informative thread where a chemist tests the E85 “Goo” and explains what he thinks it is.


In a nut shell it’s in the fuel, not the lines tanks etc like so many believe. It’s basically an additive that’s gas station specific and or old additives ”gum” that has accumulated in old tanks that they filled with ethanol. This also explains why some areas have “goo” while others do not.


It will not clog fuel pumps, injectors, filters etc as it is soluble in its liquid E85 state. As the ethanol/gas mixture exits the injector the additive crashes out of the mixture and builds up in the intake/injector tips etc. After a hot engine is shut down and fuel slowly dribbles out of the injectors due to the system being pressurized the gas and ethanol evaporate and the “goo” crashes out of the mixture and builds up on injector tips. This may also explain why I haven’t seen much in the way of goo on my current car. U run no check valve in the fuel system. When I shut the car down pressure instantly drops to zero and I get to leakage past the inj tips. I also believe injector design/atomization and leakage all play a big roll.


The chemist in the thread suggests a 15% addition of race fuel and or toluene/xylene should be enough to break down the sticky gum formation and “clean” the goo away. So about 2 gallons of race fuel per 12 gallon tank should solve the problem. He suggested 100 octane unleaded race fuel. Seems like this would be a pretty cheap and easy solution to me.

 

[redrkt]

I know I've had more problems with the E85 goo plugging up my fuel filters than the injector tips. I've seen a lot of pictures on the web with other people filters having the same issues.

 

[forcefed86]

What is clogging your filters is not the same as the sticky gum substance on the injector tips. The two are unrelated. The sticky substance on the injectors is soluble in the E85/gas mix it passes right through filters. (at least that's what the article states)

 

[Kapok6]

This may or may not be related, but I wasn't getting this goo on my injectors, but when I converted to e85, I put Teflon lines in, aeromotive filter, and my injectors kept clogging...badly. I mean, within 50mi of filling up. It didn't seem to be location specific, though they were both kroger gas stations i would get it from. So I went back to stock lines, stock filter, and a bottle of seafoam every few tanks, and never had an issue again.

It was odd though because when I would pull my pump and shine a lights into the tank, I could see minute particulates suspended in the fuel.

Again, not sure if this was the same stuff or not, but stock lines/filter/seafoam helped my e85 fueling problem.