Tuning with E85

[forcefed86]

NGK 8’s I believe I’ll check tonight. Gapped at 24.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

On a 16g I would go down to even 6's. Guys are making 700+ on 7's gapped down. Run the hottest plug you can.

 

[bluegs03]

Yes that is another peice of information I forgot to state. You will need to run as hot of a plug as your can for E85.


Also running colder plug eliminates knock as well. I was running ngk6s and would get knock on e85 in the same boost and timing, now with ngk 8s no more knock, it disappeared instantly without changing tune.

Sooo... im confused which one of these is correct? Im looking to learn more about tuning e85 thanks

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Run the hottest plug you can without blowing it out. Since E85 burns so cool and ignites so slowly this helps it.

 

[forcefed86]

On a 16g I would go down to even 6's. Guys are making 700+ on 7's gapped down. Run the hottest plug you can.

I’d agree this may be part of the problem if it was breaking up all the time. Seems like if it the plug was not hot enough it would break up even more the richer the mixture was? Car runs great rich, and poorly as I lean it out. Makes no sense to me…

Either way it can’t hurt, I’ll pick up some plugs on the way home today and report back.

Thanks for the tip.

 

[fastasseclips95]

There is a injector calculator in v3 lite.
Be sure to enter the correct stoichiometric ratio for the fuel you'll be using. If it's E85, then the 14.7 :1 defaulted in the stoichiometric ratio box needs to be changed to 9.7 :1
Once that spits out a number, use it as a starting point to fine tune your fuel trims.

Thanks man. Im just about done with my wire tuck and build and will be going the 20 miles to fill up the gas cans so I can get started haha.

 

[forcefed86]

Not sure if the ECU just needed some time to learn the tune or what but before installing new plugs the ECU leaned itself out to 11.5 or so (chip is set for 11.1) Seems to be fine now.

Installed new plugs (6's). No change really. I was running a 24 gap I opened them up to 28 this time. Idle may have improved a tad. Maybe I'll get some better mileage.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

I have a somewhat newbie question about E85. It's about fuel pressure regulators.

Since E85 requires more fuel for a proper burn, would it be safe to run a 255lph or greater fuel pump without running an AFPR? Or would you still go into overrun? If not, are all AFPR "ethanol safe"?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

I have a somewhat newbie question about E85. It's about fuel pressure regulators.

Since E85 requires more fuel for a proper burn, would it be safe to run a 255lph or greater fuel pump without running an AFPR? Or would you still go into overrun? If not, are all AFPR "ethanol safe"?

Overrun is kind of a myth. If a car is getting overrun, it's because the diaphragm in the regulator is weak. The stock 2g and EVO regulators have shown to handle an A1000, 044 Bosch and even dual 255lph pumps if they are in proper condition without having any problems. If it "overruns" replace it with a new OEM 2g or EVO one. No need to drop $200+ on an aftermarket one you don't need. My 2g one holds my 255lph pump just fine.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Not sure if the ECU just needed some time to learn the tune or what but before installing new plugs the ECU leaned itself out to 11.5 or so (chip is set for 11.1) Seems to be fine now.

Installed new plugs (6's). No change really. I was running a 24 gap I opened them up to 28 this time. Idle may have improved a tad. Maybe I'll get some better mileage.

If you have an SAFC or some way to lean it out more I would definitely try to. At 11.5:1 you are running pig rich. Where is your wideband placed in the system?

 

[forcefed86]

If you have an SAFC or some way to lean it out more I would definitely try to. At 11.5:1 you are running pig rich. Where is your wideband placed in the system?

WB02 sensor is roughly 3.5 feet from turbo exit. Not cats etc. Problem is the chip is burnt for 11.2:1. So the ECU trim is going to try and richen the mixture.

I'd have to completly lean out the ECU High Trim before I could lean the mixture anymore. Changing the fuel maps this drastically screws with timing maps and everything else.

I suppose I could crank the FP back down to 35 where I had it and see where that gets me.


Anyone notice white speckling on the plugs with e85? I'd always associated speckling with detonation. The NGK 7's I just took out had some frosty looking electordes. Which is really strange because I always tune for zero knock. I've got the palm pilot set with an audible alarm at 7 counts, and I always lift.

Thanks for the help, I'll play with it a little more today.

 

[forcefed86]

***********Update*****************
Well I’m not sure what the initial issue was caused by? Maybe the plugs did “fix” it.

So I had to fight the ECU all the way up to 139 on the fuel trims before my adjustments started taking effect. With base FP at 35 and 19% across the board on the SAFC I’m hitting 11.8 in the midrange and 12.1 from 4500 up. Advanced base timing to 8*. Putting me at roughly 20* total timing in the upper maps. DC is at 88%. My 2g MAF peak reading was at 1488.

Pretty sure I've maxed out this setup. Hope to get to the track this weekend if the weather holds.

Thanks 95blackGsTurbo!

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

No problem! Glad to see it's running better.

 

[Calan]

Problem is the chip is burnt for 11.2:1. So the ECU trim is going to try and richen the mixture.

I'd have to completly lean out the ECU High Trim before I could lean the mixture anymore.

I'm confused. The fuel trims only operate during closed loop...not at WOT. So why would a chip be burned to maintain 11.2:1 in closed loop? the ECU should still be targeting stoich during closed loop... not 11.2:1.

Am I missing something?

 

[forcefed86]

I'm confused. The fuel trims only operate during closed loop...not at WOT. So why would a chip be burned to maintain 11.2:1 in closed loop? the ECU should still be targeting stoich during closed loop... not 11.2:1.

Am I missing something?

That is a good point, I'm really not sure. It seems on this chip (bought it used with the injectors) That high trims alter the WOT fueling. I though most ECU's ran as you described above.

All my trims are maxed out at 139. At cruise/idle the WB02 jumps around the 14's and 15's as it always has.

Part of me wants to reset the ECU and get the trims to around 100 with the SAFC. But wouldn't this alter the timing tables to the extreme if I had to add 30-40% across the board with the SAFC. At least this way with the ECU adding a large portion of fuel with the trims my timing/fuel maps don't have to be altered as much with the SAFC.

I'm still playing with it. But at the moment it drives very well. Aside from the cool alcohol smell I wouldn't know the difference between the 91 tune and this one.

 

[jrohner]

Yes the high trim effects WOT, so you need to get that close to 100, or just unplug your narrowband and run fulltime openloop (I don't really like closed loop, mostly I don't like LT trims actually).

You'll need to add a lot more fuel to the low throttle points than the high throttle, mostly because the fuel map is richer than necessary for E85.

 

[forcefed86]

Well oddly enough the motor let go last night. No changes just filled up at the gas station. Logs show no knock or signs of a problem. Jumped on the gas loud boom followed by the sound of pots and pans clanking together. Pushed it to the side of the side of the road. Lots of oil leaking. Can't be good!

I did pick up the car cheap, who knows what is on the inside. Haven't had a chance to look it over yet.

 

[talonDSMerr]

Are the AFR's in the mid to upper 12's being used with stock compression pistons? Or would that work with higher CR pistons as well?

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Compressor doesn't really affect AFR's. You still tune in the same range.

 

[olmytsi]

I've been running e85 in my talon since the summer time...what a world of difference that gas makes on the car!!!!!!

I run the AFR's in the 12.0-12.5 range, currently running only 23 psi (have ran as much as 28) and the timing sliders are zeroed in dsmlink but I have the CAS advanced a shit ton so who knows exactly how much timing i'm running. Airflow is in the 45 lbs/min range.

The car has pretty much never knocked on this gas ( i have the cel set to come on at the minimum amount of knock possible which is 1 degree of timing retard).

Setup is:

Stock 6 bolt
SCM5031E
255hp
BM 1550's
GSC S1's
NGK BR7ES (not the BPR's...but I have ran the BPR's with no difference) gapped at .025.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

E85 is a big fan of timing. If I were you I would bring the CAS back to 5* and tune with the sliders. You are leaving a ton of power/torque on the table for no reason.

 

[TheBoz]

This is a great thread. I finally found a station that is about 12 miles from my house that sells e85. I might pick some up this weekend and start to play. I am running 25psi on Cali 91 on a 37r, which is kinda like playing with fire. I would love to be able to run 35psi+ on e85. I am doing my Q16 map this weekend and after that I think I am going to jump into e85.

A few quick questions at peek torque what kind of timing numbers are you guys seeing and at peek RPM what kind of timing numbers are you seeing. On pump gas I am at about 5 @ peek torque, and 9-10 at peek rpm.

I will also score some br7es and give those a try also.

Thanks for the info.

 

[95blackGsTurbo]

Timing is different from car to car. Start off by dialing in your AFR. Anywhere from 12.0-12.8 is the best area to be. With that turbo you will probably need to gap your plugs down to .024-.022. From there you can start working with your timing curve. You can get all the way into the mid 20's for peak torque and in excess of 20* timing as long as the car permits it. It's all trial and error and having the right tools.

 

[olmytsi]

E85 is a big fan of timing. If I were you I would bring the CAS back to 5* and tune with the sliders. You are leaving a ton of power/torque on the table for no reason.

Yeah, I need to get a timing light and do that!!!!!

 

[donniekak]

Im at 14-18* through peak torque, with 20* at 7000 rpm's. I could push even more but this is on stock pistons/headbolts. Also 30 ish psi spike falling off to 26.