Tuning in e30 (e85 blend) with MMCD....

[forcefed86]

I'm running a DSMchips 750cc injector stage 3 chip. 2gMAF

It is burnt for:

factory pressure 37psi
93 octane 18* adv on top maps
11.1 AFR enhanced closed loop maps.
7gph 100% meth injection

Plan on running e30 ethanol blend. (we have it at out local gas station on the blender pumps)

The plan is to raise my base FP to 41 to keep me safely rich at the moment. Then plan on warming up the car and adjusting FP to get the HIGH fuel trim around 100.

Sounds simple enough, but I ran into some issues.

Engine at normal temp. With standard 91 octane.

At idle my:
FTRH reads 95.3
FTRL reads 133
FTRM read 93.7

These numbers above numbers don't seem to change... ever. I can crank my base FP to 50 and the numbers don't change. Can I not make adjustments at idle? Are these chips burnt for closed loop idle as well at WOT? I made a full 3 gear pull and the above fields never changed.

What am I missing here?

Thanks!

 

[viprez586]

Your low fuel trim is really lean. Think of 100% as 0. Adding more to zero - adds more fuel. Subtracting from 0 - subtracting fuel. But I'm sure you knew that.

Anyway, the ecu will take some time to adjust fuel trims- ie a couple of pulls. It's best to watch your AFR (rather than fuel tims)while tuning and either let the ecu make it's changes to the fuel trims over time, or reset the ecu so it will go through a quicker learning process. Your fuel trims will never be perfectly all at 100%, but you should try to get them as close as possible.

First tune for zero knock, then best AFR(leanest w/o knock), then fuel trims. IMO fuel trims don't mean a whole lot to me in terms of importance, I'd rather tune watching timing, IDC%, AFR, and knock sum. If i can get the leanest possible mixture, with the most timing without any knock I could care less about what the ecu is trying to correct with fuel trims.

Jeff is pretty much the man for car specific eprom chip burns, so yes he does cover a lot of the ball park.

You messing with the FP is battling with Jeff's chip, he burnt you one for stock fuel pressure- so leave it and fine tune with another method, tuning by FP is like shooting at targets in the dark - you might get close but far from good.
You really only have the option of fine tuning with a SAFC, MAFT, DSMLINK, or other alternatives.

Sorry mods, for some reason i cannot edit my post, hopefully this post will auto-merge.

 

[forcefed86]

Your low fuel trim is really lean. Think of 100% as 0. Adding more to zero - adds more fuel. Subtracting from 0 - subtracting fuel. But I'm sure you knew that.

Anyway, the ecu will take some time to adjust fuel trims- ie a couple of pulls. It's best to watch your AFR (rather than fuel tims)while tuning and either let the ecu make it's changes to the fuel trims over time, or reset the ecu so it will go through a quicker learning process. Your fuel trims will never be perfectly all at 100%, but you should try to get them as close as possible.

First tune for zero knock, then best AFR(leanest w/o knock), then fuel trims. IMO fuel trims don't mean a whole lot to me in terms of importance, I'd rather tune watching timing, IDC%, AFR, and knock sum. If i can get the leanest possible mixture, with the most timing without any knock I could care less about what the ecu is trying to correct with fuel trims.

Jeff is pretty much the man for car specific eprom chip burns, so yes he does cover a lot of the ball park.

You messing with the FP is battling with Jeff's chip, he burnt you one for stock fuel pressure- so leave it and fine tune with another method, tuning by FP is like shooting at targets in the dark - you might get close but far from good.
You really only have the option of fine tuning with a SAFC, MAFT, DSMLINK, or other alternatives.

Sorry mods, for some reason i cannot edit my post, hopefully this post will auto-merge.

Thanks for the reply!

This car has always tried to idle extremely lean. I've pressurized the system with shop air and it is very tight. (after re-welding a bunch of my piping! )

I have the MAF screw in completely and fuel pressure at 40 and it will still idle at mid 14's to mid 15's was idleing in the 19 with the 1g maf! Anyway that is liveable. I may try another 2gmaf if one crosses my path for the right price. Also may be the 272 cams.

I have already tuned for zero knock. Running 21psi and slightly advanced timing around 21* total if I had to guess base timing around 8*. Car was a pig at 5* base and 18* total. Either way still zero KR.

I wanted to get the trims as close as possible just for driveability. I have slightly jerky low acceleration i'm not to crazy about since the new chip and MAF.

I'll try resetting the ECM and going from there. Even with no changes I should still be ok with e20. Possibly even e30. I agree somewhat with what your are saying about tuning with FP. But making small adjustments will give the map a very linear enrichment across all the maps. Exactly what I'm looking for. And what (jeff suggested I do) Not like I'm tuning for different spec injectors etc.

*********update***********
Tried resetting ECU and adjusting base FP to 42. Also threaded in a 02 sensor bung plug with thread sealant on the bottom of the maf screw for an airtight seal. Idle isn't at 133 any longer seems to drive better.

Engine at normal temp. With standard 91 octane. 20psi zero KR.

FTRH reads 92.3
FTRL reads 110
FTRM read 90.3

Soon as I can run my tank low enough I'll go fill up on e30 and see where I'm at. Adjusting FP down if necessary.

Thanks guys!

**************UPDATE***********************


I got impatient and drained my tank today. Filled up on E30. Reset ECU. Went for an hour cruise. Bumped base FP from 37 to 42psi. 7gph of 100% meth activates at 12psi. (prob not necessary now!)

High and med. fuel trim values at exactly 100. ECU made no adjustments.

Low fuel trim at 139! It's usually lean at around 110. Can't for the life of me figure why this thing idles so lean. May be the BC 272 cams. I don't think the chip was not burnt for these cams.

Car drives well, idle jumps from 14.5 -15.0. 825-900 rpm. Pretty stable.

Started out with boost at 9psi. AFR's right at 11:1. zero KR. Bumped it up to 15, then 20 (spikes to 22-23 then levels out.) No real KR. I'd see a random 2 in the knock field for a brief second. I also get this occasionally while cruising so I don't think it's a big deal.

I'd like to phase out the 100% meth and throw some cheap old washer fluid in my alky injection system. I think the e30 will let me do this. Possibly even remove the alky injection all together. Or at least drop the injector size way back.

Assuming 100% ethanol is 113 octane (most common octane rating I found for ethanol online. )

e20- 92.2 octane
e30- 94.8 octane

These numbers seem high to me, probably not more than a point off. Either way e30 will have higher octane than 91.

E85 is 70% to 83% ethanol. Usually not 85% like you'd think and usually not 105 octane according to wikipedia.

Either way. 20 lbs of boost and 20* of total timing feels pretty good!

 

[rstchris]

Full e85 and 30* is where it's at. I tuned this in 100* weather too.

 

[forcefed86]

Full e85 and 30* is where it's at. I tuned this in 100* weather too.

30 degrees of timing? Or 30 lbs of boost?

 

[JayRolla]

E85 blend depends on the season. It changes due to cold weather to help with cold starts. All gas pretty much is already e10. E30 will not do too much. 94 octane did hardly anything over 91 when I tried it. Just get the injector and have the chip retuned so you can run e85. Its so worth it.

 

[forcefed86]

E85 blend depends on the season. It changes due to cold weather to help with cold starts. All gas pretty much is already e10. E30 will not do too much. 94 octane did hardly anything over 91 when I tried it. Just get the injector and have the chip retuned so you can run e85. Its so worth it.

I agree with you, E85 is awesome, but this is my daily driver. There aren't enough e85 pumps out there yet for me to make the leap. I don't know if I'll be staying here in KS. So I'm keeping my options open. If I'm not close to a e30 station I'll just toss in 91 and turn the boost down. No huge changes there.

This is a street car with a small E3-16G turbo. I can run 25lbs of boost safely right now. So personally I don't have a reason to change fuel. I've got another car that I "race".

And while you say 94 octane had no gain over 91, I disagree.

I had to pull timing (base timing 3*) prior to e30 mix with 100% meth inj and make my set injection point lower (7psi) to avoid detonation. (20psi) This bogged the car down quite a bit.

Now I changed my 100% meth to a 50/50 water/meth mix. Injection "on" point is at 12psi. Max boost 25psi 5* base timing and I have no knock. I do have the boost turned down to 20psi now and WOT timing at 20*. Hoping this stops me from breaking things. It is a solid 110 trap car at this point. More than enough for me to have fun with on the street.

Not to mention fuel mileage is a small concern of mine. I'll have to make more gas station stops in the freezing ass winter with e85!

 

[JayRolla]

I didnt mean to see there was no gains just not that much. You run so well now due to the meth/alky injection not the e30 IMO. But that small turbo making that much boost is pretty good on the stock 1g timing map.

 

[rstchris]

30 degrees of timing? Or 30 lbs of boost?

That's 30 deg. and 21 psi with 100* temps. If I had huge injectors I would run 30* and 30psi.

 

[forcefed86]

Just a little update.

I had some issues with my medium and high trims being a bit lean. Trims were up in the 120's. Idle trim was pegged lean. So I figure if I'm going to run e30 correctly, fuel pressure alone won't do it.

I went ahead and bought an SAFCII to "fine tune". Had to add 25% fuel at idle just to get L trim to 100. Seems happy there. Idle is very clean and not as choppy. Added roughly 23% high throttle maps. Everything seems happy now.

Also added 2 .75 GPH meth nozzle pre-turbo. I gained a full pound of boost just from installing the pre-turbo meth nozzle!

Boost is now briefly spikes to 35 then settles to 25 by 6k. Pulls like a freight train!

Or at least as much as could be expected with e3-16g.

 

[JayRolla]

Nice. The e316g can make good power. Dsmlink estimates 405whp and 430lb/tq. Not bad for a little turbo that hits 32psi in a split second.

 

[forcefed86]

Update...

Bumped timing up to 10* base. Thats 22* total timing WOT. No knock!

Boost has actually be settling down to aroundf 23-24psi by 7k. Not 27 as stated above. It starts to drop off around 5k. Modified my WGA last night. Hopefully get to do some testing tonight!

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http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/267309-evo3-16g-boost-creep-solved-3.html

 

[juanpac0]

The thought of this makes me very happy, please make some in car vids.

 

[JayRolla]

You bumped timing to 10* base and all you see is 22* peak timing? The 1g ecu should see 22* at 5* base since thats what its programmed for. You should be seeing 27* which even with no knock is dangerously high. I see you have a dsmchip so maybe your timing was already being pulled which will make more sense.

 

[forcefed86]

You bumped timing to 10* base and all you see is 22* peak timing? The 1g ecu should see 22* at 5* base since thats what its programmed for. You should be seeing 27* which even with no knock is dangerously high. I see you have a dsmchip so maybe your timing was already being pulled which will make more sense.

Running a chipped ECU with stage 3 chip. 17* in the upper maps. Once the track opens again i'll bump it both directions and watch my MPH. Raising the timing helped my idle quality considerabily with the BC 272 cams. The cams were installed staright up, so they may be retarding timing a bit depending how off they are. Of course they could be advancing it too.... Most of the people I know that installed a set of BC cams said they needed to be advanced.

I watch knock pretty closely. So far so good.