Tuning with E85

[jrohner]

Overrun is kind of a myth.

It's good to hear that from someone else, especially since I got kind of ripped on when I said it a while back.

Well oddly enough the motor let go last night.

A little too greedy with timing advance?

 

[forcefed86]

A little too greedy with timing advance?

I don't think so... 8* base should have put me at 20* total in the upper portion of the map. It's really strange. Car was running great. I was even logging at the time. Never had over 2* of knock until it blew. Then a peak of 34.

I didn't change the tune. I was at about a 1/2 tank and had just filled up on e85. Jumped on it as I was leaving teh gas station felt great. Around 12.0 up top AFR. Then before getting home I went to my "tuning road". The next WOT pull I just heard a loud pop followed by what sounded like pots and pans clanking together then tons of oil and smoke. I towed the car home yesterday. I'll have a chance to look at it a little this weekend.

 

[forcefed86]

Don't you hate it when this happens...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Took out my the transfer case as well...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[gofer]

Were you logging when that happened? I want to know how thats even possible without showing knock, thats crazy man.

 

[jm1080]

yea I want to know to! How the hell does that happen?

 

[GSXeclipsePSI]

Quick question since I'm running meth/water injection now and I always needed the 7es before should I switch back to a hotter plug even with the COP setup?

I have gap @ .28 and haven't had problems to 24psi so far (w/o meth injection)

Til my HD wg comes I have been limited to 21psi on my new 6152e. But even with the meth timing doesn't seem to like to be more then 15* at peak 12-13* is average even with the meth but 18-21psi is more timing. My afr is 11.2 or so. Should I change that there isn't much on meth/water injection tuning.

I also am switching to SD this week, just tuning it now that should help no?

Also I am running one 10gph nozzle pump not at 250psi I have a 7gph nozzle. Progressive kit so it starts @10psi full power by 15psi I use 1gal of fluid in about 50miles but its a pleasure car and I take it out to have fun and tune.

Also when I did my rebuild I used a 43cc cylinder head and the block was warped and the head and block where decked for a MLS hg and I have 8.3:1 so I assume my CR is higher then I think.

My crank timing was off by || that much which machine shop said was normal with the amount taken off.

 

[forcefed86]

I can't tell exactly what failed. I was told to look for jet black parts at breakage areas. The rod hunk I found is black where it broke off. Also the wrist pin is black where the rod attached to it.

carnage...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

This piece is my favorite. I want to make a necklace or something out of it...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Top of the destroyed piston looks great. So do all the others. I don't think I was detonating. I was running e85 and never saw much knock.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I still think a ring butted and took out the piston. It was all down hill from there!

 

[1995gsx20g]

what do you mean by the ring butted?

 

[forcefed86]

what do you mean by the ring butted?

The gaps on the rings weren't set properly and they touched causing the piston to seize.

 

[1995gsx20g]

The gaps on the rings weren't set properly and they touched causing the piston to seize.

oh, ok

that makes a lot of sense because pistons have little to no strength in terms of tension and it also explains the clean break from the crank journal that's still intact.

 

[JayRolla]

Just to add when tuning the timing maps on e85 be careful. Most people add timing till you start to knock. E85 sometimes wont knock up past 25* so tune to MBT with a good logger/ems or dyno.

When I swapped in e85 and some 1200cc injectors on an safc and maf-t timing was out the roof, around 28* and I had zero knock. I dropped timing to around 1* base to get in a safe range.

 

[turboglenn]

just to add my observations after a few years on ethanol... if i'im in the 10.5 - -11.2:1 AFR range i getg a LOT of knock (picked up by the J&S not the stock snensor), but if i lean into the areas anywhere from 11.6 up to about 12.7:1 the engine runs quiet and pulls hard, i don't get too excited on timing runnning between 20-23* @ 4-5kRPM (peak torque) and advancing on up to about 27* by 9000 RPM under the areas of 25-30psi i'm actually running tthe same timing numbers with no issues what so ever

And to be honest i'm still using some pre-turbo meth injection when i need a little more from htne crompressor.. I've even had the bottle run a few tanks through at a jetted 40hp shot that is netting around 70 hp on the rollers with the combo of xcooling and extra o2 from the bottle.

But it sure shows a true affection to run a leaner afr and apreciate more tminmg with it...when going richer i tend to get knock whe the tming attack is strong andalso a bit of blowout and backfire under WOT, but a slight leaning will always cure it

(still loving the extra fuel from the pumps and injectors that was provided by a decent voltage from the saturn 140amp alternator) which to this day still pumps out 14.2 - -13.8 on average lowering to about a 12.2 with EVERY accessory , light and radio on with the AC inverter (500amp model) powering hte laptop, but only at idle

The car is finally where i want it save for a new turbo cause mine is worn and a fresh interior and paint (including a DVD player sadly i've fallen prey to the gadget syndrome )

But e85 will fool you when too rich for sure, lean it out ad just be smart with the tminmg and EGT's

 

[Chicken Patty]

Hello guys,

I've had some success tuning my own cars since I ever owned them, but recently I switched to E85 and I know it's a whole new beast from what I've heard.

I hear people say they run over 20* of timing, some under, etc. I have attached a log of my last pull. The knock you see I am sure is phantom knock as my dump tube is fairly close and at times rubbing on my a/c fan (fixing this weekend). So that is probably transmitting on the frame of the car causing the knock sensor to pick up some knock.

What I've done so far since I've been told by various people that it's hard to tell when you are knocking on E85 is that I've added one degree of timing at a time and looked for at least 5whp gain according to the logger, the last pull yielded 7whp from about 16* to 17* of timing. What do you guys think? My boost is a steady 15psi all across. Got my 1600's coming in soon then I'll turn it up some more. For now as you see, my IDC is a bit high so I'm keeping it no more than that.

What do you guys think or suggest? Should I try to go higher on timing and monitor my gains? Pull is towards the end of the log, right at the end.

 

[Imback]

First and foremost adjust your tps. How accurate is your ugeo with link? Also you have a issue with your alternator or grounds since during your pull your voltage was 13.3.

 

[Chicken Patty]

First and foremost adjust your tps. How accurate is your ugeo with link? Also you have a issue with your alternator or grounds since during your pull your voltage was 13.3.

TPS is an easy fix, it's always been like that so I never bothered, any downside to that?

The wideband is spot on, I tried the different options till I got the most accurate reading. As far as the alternator, not that I know off, it's fairly new too. Fans were running full, maybe that was robbing some power?

 

[Imback]

This explains the tps.

dsmlinktpsadjustment [ECMTuning - wiki]

As for your voltage being low it could be caused from some bad grounds. While tuning a friends car i was having some issues with little blips of knock like your getting. After looking at the log i realized he was only getting 12.8 voltage at WOT which is a problem since your pump as well as injectors aren't getting the voltage they need. My car reads 13.8-14.0 during WOT pulls. As for the log i personally like to tune for around 12.3-12.5. I would defiantly add some timing.

 

[Chicken Patty]

This explains the tps.

dsmlinktpsadjustment [ECMTuning - wiki]

As for your voltage being low it could be caused from some bad grounds. While tuning a friends car i was having some issues with little blips of knock like your getting. After looking at the log i realized he was only getting 12.8 voltage at WOT which is a problem since your pump as well as injectors aren't getting the voltage they need. My car reads 13.8-14.0 during WOT pulls. As for the log i personally like to tune for around 12.3-12.5. I would defiantly add some timing.

I'll adjust TPS accordingly tomorrow, easy task. As far as the voltage, I'll look into it, last time I checked it a few days ago it was fine, maybe I'll try with the fans off and see. Possible they may be robbing some power enough to to drop it to 13.3v.

I know this is a hard question to answer, but about how much timing you think I can get out of my setup? Specs are updated in my profile.

 

[gofer]

The logged TPS voltage you want as close to 0.63v as possible, if its too high it will prevent the idle switch from activating and if its too low your "simulate idle switch" won't work either.

As far as voltage goes I'm typically logging 13.3-13.0v going WOT as well with my fans on, to free up some amperage I suggest shutting your fans off doing WOT pulls and 1/4 mile runs as well. The more voltage to the pump/fuel injectors the more fuel you've got to work with.

Honestly, besides learning how to tune your car and playing with ECMLink your wasting your time. Once you change to those bigger injectors and turn up the boost, the timing advance you can get away with now is going to be different than when your running 28psi.

I also suggest ZERO'ing your fuel and timing sliders and using ONLY your DA OpenLoopMaxOctane/TmgMaxOctane maps to tune with. You'll get more resolution to tune at part throttle and since your going E85 you can use the MinOctane maps to setup your secondary fuel maps for pump gas.

 

[Imback]

I don't see trying to maximize what he has to work with as a waste of time. But for right now i think he would feel a nice little gain in rising the timing. OP you need to do some more reading on timing there come's a point were adding timing will no longer give you a yield in power. But only true way to know that would be through a dyno. I see no problem with running 20* of timing. I would suggest getting some arp's before you go turning up the boost though.

 

[gofer]

Its not my car so he can beat on his DSM all he wants, its a beating for no reason though. He mentioned have his 1600cc injectors coming in soon so he can raise the boost on his 50 trim from 15psi. Beating on his car and tuning it to the edge now, then once he installs his 1600's hes got to start his WOT tuning all over again. The timing advance he's seeing now might be too aggressive for the amount of boost he plans on running. I could see it if his 1600cc injectors were months out but he said...

Got my 1600's coming in soon then I'll turn it up some more.

Dude, why beat on your car on a tune thats only going to last the end of the week? Melt a piston from too much timing now and you'll never feel what that 50 trim should really pull like until after you rebuild your motor.

 

[Chicken Patty]

I get what you guys are saying.

Along with injectors I got arp studs/cams/springs/retainers/timing kit/water pump and a whole bunch of stuff coming in. I am not putting the injectors on right away neither, I'm waiting to do all at once to tune just once more.

As far as the DA Tables, gofer that was something I asked you a while back but maybe you missed it as it went unanswered. You had told me to zero out my sliders and use the DA to get desired a/f ratio but i never saw how it was done. That's what I was looking for that time that I asked you. I'll take a look into this today. I don't think I'm really beatin' on my car that much, literally all I did last night was like four pulls, only 3rd gear so it's not that bad. But i do understand and appreciate the concern.

I'll adjust the TPS and take a look at the DA tables and get familiarized with them. I'll report back then. I also gotta see if shutting down the fans puts my voltage back up to normal.


***Note*** What I found easier to do as far as timing was to use the timing sliders, and then the DA tables to just get the areas of the power band where timing might be a little lower/higher than desired. Found that much easier than trying to edit the DA tables from scratch.

 

[gofer]

Basic Tuning Demo

 

[Chicken Patty]

Saw that video a while back gofer, completely missed the part with the DA OpenLoopMaxOctane explanation, I saw it, just by the time I actually got link and stuff I didn't remember it. Once I get some tuning done and I addressed your points above I'll revert.

 

[asg1089]

The logged TPS voltage you want as close to 0.63v as possible, if its too high it will prevent the idle switch from activating and if its too low your "simulate idle switch" won't work either.

As far as voltage goes I'm typically logging 13.3-13.0v going WOT as well with my fans on, to free up some amperage I suggest shutting your fans off doing WOT pulls and 1/4 mile runs as well. The more voltage to the pump/fuel injectors the more fuel you've got to work with.

Honestly, besides learning how to tune your car and playing with ECMLink your wasting your time. Once you change to those bigger injectors and turn up the boost, the timing advance you can get away with now is going to be different than when your running 28psi.

I also suggest ZERO'ing your fuel and timing sliders and using ONLY your DA OpenLoopMaxOctane/TmgMaxOctane maps to tune with. You'll get more resolution to tune at part throttle and since your going E85 you can use the MinOctane maps to setup your secondary fuel maps for pump gas.

alright so i do not want to thread jack or anything but i am a bit concerned at this point. i tune my own car using knowledge gained from reading this forum and by talking to other friends who have tuned their cars. now, checking that voltage on certain things is in good order is something i never learned. so with that said, i just checked previous logs and am now really concerned seeing that my voltages are entirely off for both battery volts and tps volts.

i will attach one log that was taken a while ago but it will help show you my problems. if there are any other issues with the log please let me know and thanks for any input. i am going to make sure that my mods list is up to date right now. sorry again for jumping in the middle of this thread i do apologize.

-ari

 

[Chicken Patty]

alright so i do not want to thread jack or anything but i am a bit concerned at this point. i tune my own car using knowledge gained from reading this forum and by talking to other friends who have tuned their cars. now, checking that voltage on certain things is in good order is something i never learned. so with that said, i just checked previous logs and am now really concerned seeing that my voltages are entirely off for both battery volts and tps volts.

i will attach one log that was taken a while ago but it will help show you my problems. if there are any other issues with the log please let me know and thanks for any input. i am going to make sure that my mods list is up to date right now. sorry again for jumping in the middle of this thread i do apologize.

-ari

Right off the bat you have the same issue as me that your voltage is low. Car would run fine like that but it's lower than normal and as stated before the more voltage to the pump/injectors the more you got to work with.

The tune itself seems pretty good as far as a/f and timing goes, no knock neither.

What I would say is that gofer is right, using the DA tables for getting your desired a/f and for timing is much better than the sliders. Seems like the change is more effective and spot on. I just got done tuning my buddies GS-T using nothing but DA Tables for fuel/timing and it's much better. You might want to look into that and see how it works out for you.