E85 goo - this time with an attitude

[kchaazz]

Is it possible that perhaps the E85 is eating the years of accumulated buildup off the walls of the fuel tank and lines and absorbing this, which then clogs everything up, and maybe the gasoline is able to dissolve the buildup easily afterward because the E85 has chemically changed it to something gasoline can now dissolve??

 

[Calan]

Is it possible that perhaps the E85 is eating the years of accumulated buildup off the walls of the fuel tank and lines and absorbing this

You guys really need to read the entire thread before posting.

My car is fully rebuilt from the ground up Charles, so there is no "years of accumulated buildup".

 

[kchaazz]

You guys really need to read the entire thread before posting.

My car is fully rebuilt from the ground up Charles, so there is no "years of accumulated buildup".

I did read most of your actual build thread, I just didnt remember if you actually cleaned out the tank and tubes with vinegar or some other form of acidic compound, or otherwise. Hmm... In that case, would you like to try an experiment? We dont have E85 here, so I cannot do this on my car, but at no cost to you and for the sake of eliminating the hoses as the culprits, I could make you some teflon hoses for you to put on the car. This is assuming you are still using the factory hardline and not -6 or -8 hose from sending unit to rail. It would be a replacement hose from sending unit to hardline, and replacements from filter to rail and afpr outlet to return tube. If you like, I can PM you my phone number and talk to you tonight about the lengths and configurations of the hoses from filter to rail and the return, as I already know how the factory hoses are set up. Ive always wondered if the rubber hoses could be at fault and Id like to find out for sure. Hoses come with all sorts of different tube types as many of us all know, but teflon is far superior to the rubber based materials- extreme high and low working temperatures, chemical resistance on a very broad spectrum, and has an indefinite life span as it is practically ageless. (When a PTFE hose fails, it is typically due to specific damage, rather than age.) I work for an industrial hydraulic shop, though that doesnt even scratch the surface regarding all he things we actually do here. I am an expert on all hose types, gasket materials, and thousands of different fitting types.

 

[abaum565]

The goo could have been clear, but because it's black everyone thinks it's the plastic/rubber in our systems.

Which raises another question, could it be pressure that is causing it to crash out, or possibly heat, or maybe both???

 

[DSMReviver]

Ill go with stabil for the goo problem. That's the only thing you change about your routine. Once it was introduce it becomes problems.

I wish we could test this theory out Calan. I would like to find out because i am fixing to switch to E85 real soon.

 

[Calan]

The goo could have been clear, but because it's black everyone thinks it's the plastic/rubber in our systems.

Which raises another question, could it be pressure that is causing it to crash out, or possibly heat, or maybe both???

This ^. I have no idea why it crashes out, or why it seems to be regional. I never saw it all for the first year we had E85 here, and then it just started showing up every now and then on the injector tips like many other people see.

I did read most of your actual build thread, I just didnt remember if you actually cleaned out the tank and tubes with vinegar or some other form of acidic compound, or otherwise. Hmm... In that case, would you like to try an experiment? We dont have E85 here, so I cannot do this on my car, but at no cost to you and for the sake of eliminating the hoses as the culprits...

Why I don't think it's rubber or anything from my system:

1. Post #22

2. I've been running E85 on this same setup for two years or so with no major problems. This literally happened overnight, and now that I have regular gasoline back in the car there is no sign of any buildup that I can find.

3. If it was a rubber compound, it would probably remain separated rather than going immediately back into solution as soon as gasoline touches it. And I would think that something like acetone would dissolve it much easier than gasoline, but it doesn't.

The best analogy I can come up with at the moment - it's kind of like taking salt out of saltwater (by some mysterious process), and then adding water back to it. If what you ended up with was some mineral that was eaten away from the container rather than salt, adding water back to it probably wouldn't make it dissolve immediately back into solution like the salt would.

4. Chemists have tested this stuff, and found it's chemical footprint to be completely different than synthetic rubber or other materials typically found in a fuel system.

5. There have been cases of this same compound forming in pristine systems designed specifically for pure ethanol.

BUT... I've learned to not rule out anything when it comes to my DSM. I plan on pulling and inspecting the lines, and soaking some extra hose I have in some e85 for a while just to be sure.

There is a HUGE thread about the e85 goo over on the evom forums. I'll try to find the link for those that haven't read through it.

 

[abaum565]

Ill go with stabil for the goo problem. That's the only thing you change about your routine. Once it was introduce it becomes problems.

I wish we could test this theory out Calan. I would like to find out because i am fixing to switch to E85 real soon.

I don't think this will be completely solved anytime soon. This has been going on for years (although not to this extent that I've seen). People have tried all kinds of "fixes", with the problem still remaining. I don't think it's as simple as add this or take away that.

 

[DSMReviver]

I don't think this will be completely solved anytime soon. This has been going on for years (although not to this extent that I've seen). People have tried all kinds of "fixes", with the problem still remaining. I don't think it's as simple as add this or take away that.

I know its been going on for awhile. I hear people with goo injector tips all the time. But this is ridiculous, stabil may have made it worst.

 

[Calan]

I don't think this will be completely solved anytime soon. This has been going on for years (although not to this extent that I've seen). People have tried all kinds of "fixes", with the problem still remaining. I don't think it's as simple as add this or take away that.

What I find to be even more strange, is that you won't find any mention of this very well-known goo in any commercial products. They say things like "prevents corrosion", "removes moisture", "removes deposits", etc... but nobody has stepped up and said (to paraphrase) "pour this in your e85 and it will prevent the goo".

You'd think that as well known as this problem is, some company would have jumped all over the obvious gold mine in sales with a product specifically geared towards it.

It's also a bit strange that you never hear it mentioned in the context of FFVs, although I did see a thinly-veiled nod to it in some fine print on something GM put out...but that is it. And I would bet good money that some of these FFVs are seeing this problem and the owners just never notice it...or the manufacturers know about it and have figured out a way to prevent it in FFVs, but are keeping it all under wraps due to some weird political/economic deal with the ethanol people.

This is just conjecture of course... but there is something going on with the whole "goo" issue that we don't know about. It's too common and too well known for companies and the EPA to not be jumping all over it.

Or...everyone is clueless and nobody wants to be first and get thrown under the bus on the subject.

 

[abaum565]

Calan, I am no chemist/scientist by a long shot, but have you read of anyone trying some magnets or the like? Maybe the "goo" is sensitive to a positive or negative charge, or maybe that is what is making it crash out like it does. Do you ever see/find the actual goo on rubber surfaces? I have not in my experience. I know you had it on your filter sock though.

It sounds kinda dumb, but I am really trying to think outside the box

 

[Calan]

Maybe the "goo" is sensitive to a positive or negative charge, or maybe that is what is making it crash out like it does.

That is an interesting thought (electrolysis) and definitely outside the box ... but I can't see that explaining where or how the goo normally appears. If that was somehow causing it, I would expect the goo to accumulate in areas where an anode/cathode type of condition could be produced...like around the fuel pump wiring in the tank.

And a magnet shouldn't have any effect on a compound created through that process, unless it was ferrous.

 

[eclipsegsx1736]

Another interesting thing about our goo buildup is I can't seem to find examples of the same issue on other forums and other cars. There's a bit on the Subaru forums but it mostly just points to the EvoM thread. I talked to a Supra buddy of mine (he is VERY active on Supraforums) and he has never heard of this. He also runs on E85, has done tons of research on it on the Supra forums and has never come across this issue. Likewise with a turbo Miata friend I have. He fills up at the same E85 station I have goo issues with, and he has been running E85 exclusively for years and his injectors are perfect, and has also never heard of the issue.

I completely agree that this goo is in the fuel itself, but why do we (DSMs/Evos) have such a problem with it?

 

[6damian6]

Another interesting thing about our goo buildup is I can't seem to find examples of the same issue on other forums and other cars. There's a bit on the Subaru forums but it mostly just points to the EvoM thread. I talked to a Supra buddy of mine (he is VERY active on Supraforums) and he has never heard of this. He also runs on E85, has done tons of research on it on the Supra forums and has never come across this issue. Likewise with a turbo Miata friend I have. He fills up at the same E85 station I have goo issues with, and he has been running E85 exclusively for years and his injectors are perfect, and has also never heard of the issue.

I completely agree that this goo is in the fuel itself, but why do we (DSMs/Evos) have such a problem with it?

Dsmlink.com has a long thread about this..........i suffered from the e85 goo,seems like it depends who the supplier is....would explain why op suddenly got goo out of no where.

 

[DSMReviver]

From doing some research on this matter i found the possible explanation of what might be causing the goo/gunk. I came across similar problems the ford SVT forum guys were having.

The goo is the result of poor grounding with the fuel tank, line, rail and injector's metal tips. What is happening is that (their explanation/the chemist) the goo is the results of "electrolysis pulling the free oxygen molecules off the HC chains in the ethanol and then doing some funky carbon double bonding" and the chemist also said "This might explain why some cars have this worse than others. Varying levels of grounding in the fuel system."

they suggested that the tank, line, rail and individual injectors need to be grounded straight to the batteries. Here is the link and it will provide you with more detail explanation of what they are talking about. VVVVVVVV

It would be great to see if this is what needs to be done.

Fuel Filter E85? - SVTPerformance

 

[MidShipCivic]

None of that makes no sense because it recently happened he runs 15v on his fuel pump I doubt there is a grounding issue on his car. Since he DID build it from the ground up.

 

[abaum565]

None of that makes no sense because it recently happened he runs 15v on his fuel pump I doubt there is a grounding issue on his car. Since he DID build it from the ground up.

I surely wouldn't rule it out.

Has anyone been able to replicate the goo on a bench test?

 

[m_0ney_pit]

so does the e85 sediment out particles if you grab a fresh batch from the gas station and let it sit?

so this is actually really interesting. whats the humidity like in your area usually?

Looks like your forming particles though... It may be a chemical additive or some component of the gas in e85 that forms organic particles when the water is added.

Try this:
Take a known amount of fresh-from-the-station e85 and add a small amount of water and leave it closed under its own vapor pressure for a little while.

Also sample a small amount of e85 that has been in your gas tank and do the same...leave them sit for a little while in the same conditions that your cars gas tank sees

I'd also do this for a sample of e85 from your gas tank without any water and see if it sediments.

 

[arrowhead]

Count me in here ,very interested in what happens.

 

[little-razcal]

I think its funny reading through this thread how people are still swearing it is your line's.... If you follow the lines back to the source (the tank), you plainly see black goo all over the fuel pump sock, and the sock is the first thing to touch E85. Whatever chemical reaction causing this, obviously has to be taking place in the gas tank.

The E85 is only gunking up at points that cause a restriction in flow. The sock is gunked, the filter screen's are gunked, and the injector tops are gunked. There is a reason why this gunk is forming on these spots and not forming when just sitting in tank.

 

[Calan]

The E85 is only gunking up at points that cause a restriction in flow. The sock is gunked, the filter screen's are gunked, and the injector tops are gunked. There is a reason why this gunk is forming on these spots and not forming when just sitting in tank.

Yep. It seems that it only forms where there is a small amount of surface area for the molecules to attach to, and then "grow" from.

And... I don't buy the bad ground theory at all.

 

[white92talontsi]

I personally think the "goo" is coming from the coating that is in the tank. There is a black coating inside the tank that helps with corrosion etc etc.. I am betting that the Ethanol is slowly eating that coating away. If you look inside your tank and see shiny metal then the coating is gone.

 

[Calan]

I personally think the "goo" is coming from the coating that is in the tank. There is a black coating inside the tank that helps with corrosion etc etc.. I am betting that the Ethanol is slowly eating that coating away. If you look inside your tank and see shiny metal then the coating is gone.

 

[talonDSMerr]

It's been stated that the goo is from E85 itself... People know this because people have analyzed the makeup of the goo and the makeup of E85 in an effort to find the source and they match. Why do people still think its the lines or gas tank or injector insulators/seals?

 

[Calan]

It's been stated that the goo is from E85 itself... People know this because people have analyzed the makeup of the goo and the makeup of E85 in an effort to find the source and they match. Why do people still think its the lines or gas tank or injector insulators/seals?

Because they don't bother reading the entire thread before tossing in their two cents....or they just like to argue.


**********

I am going to build a bench-sized fuel system that can be studied, and I'll run some tests and try to get some answers. All I need is a single old injector (I don't care what size), and a connector would be nice but not necessary. If anyone has one they want to donate, please PM me.

Now that I think about it...an actual 1G pump hanger may be helpful also.

 

[urmomsaniceguy]

Another easy test you could do would be put your pump in a glass jar with e85 and stabil added pump it into another jar over and over. Then one without the stabil.