DSM Graveyard Pistons Rod Combo

[turbo23]

where do guys get there numbers from for hp ratings anyway? i mean for someone to say a stock rod is good to 400whp is fine, but is the info true? its not like a light switch goes off at 400hp and you'll have parts on the ground. I've been building race engines for years, and only a couple of occasions have i seen a rod break from somthing other than a rod bolt failing or a spun bearing caused by either an oiling issue or detination. So pick your machine shop carefully, if u decide to use arp bolts, and pick your tuner just as carefully.

 

[DSMGraveyardinc]

Build an engine with a nice fresh crank, acl main /rod bearings, Ross pistons, and eagle rods. Balance the assembly and your good. It will take a bit of detonation AND if you decide to go big in the power department it will take over 600hp. If you outgrow your head porting/ turbo, unbolt them and slap on some better flowing pieces. I built a 2.0 ross / eagle shortblock, let my ex set the timing and she detonated the shit out of the engine (think audible) and it still held up. That was about 375hp. If you overbuild you will be much more happy with what you end up with. Forged pistons only really have two down sides, oil consumption (due to the slightly larger ptw clearance) but its barely noticable), and cost.

I mean don't get me wrong. My next build might be a stock rod and evo 9 piston setup. But that's just cause I am broke and want a short block ready for when I blow up the stock 170k mile engine in my 1g.

Im with this guy, You seem like you are going to be pushing over 500 in the life of this engine, you will not want to go with a factory rod. When a customer states they will be doing anything near 450 to over 500, we point them in the direction of the Forged parts.

Here is a kinda a ball park chart we made:
DSM Graveyard's Engine Building Planner

 

[Boug]

I fail to understand why the dsmgraveyard 6bolt rebuild is on the list as an alternative to insure reliability. You have the same rods/pistons in your car right now. In fact the rods in question probably have had more miles/abuse than yours. Freshen your up for 1/4 the cost if you're worried. Actually, just do a compression/leakdown test to see if your motor is even weak.

Why rebuild just to swap in arp rod bolts. That's the only upgrade that combination has. Not worth it. Too many get the job done reliabily with the stock 6bolt rod bolts. They are HUGE compared to 7bolt rod bolts. That option is for those who have spun a rod bearing in their 6bolt.

Hey thanks. In the midst of things, I failed to even consider that option. Done deal. Could you elaborate more on the red parts for me? So are you advocating that I should keep my 6-bolt rods and grab a set of pistons (of course with the usual things to keep everything buttoned down tight)?

So pick your machine shop carefully, if u decide to use arp bolts, and pick your tuner just as carefully.

Yes, sir. I truly understand the importance of chosing the right tuner. That job is being handled by my man Archie @ PSI here in Tucson. Those of you in this area know of his expertise.

Here is a kinda a ball park chart we made:
DSM Graveyard's Engine Building Planner

I took a look at the chart which states:

450-500 HP: This is about where the bus stops for the Stage 1 Short Blocks. You can get away with running a 6-bolt lower end with reconditioned 6-bolt Frankenstein Rods with Evo 8/9 Pistons. You probably could even do this on a 2G 7 bolt if you had to, BUT when we get this serious into a build, and we are now doing extreme modifying to internals, might as well jump to the Stage 2 stuff for the 7 bolts. 6-bolt rods will hold this power level fine. We are one of the only places where the up to 500 HP motors find many many options for keeping the budget down and getting there engines running great!

I like how all of this reads.

 

[DSMGraveyardinc]

A well built shortblock will be more reliable and make more power. Period. Stock rods/pistons are good to around 400whp with a competent tuner on the keyboard. Stock internals and 500+ is either fluffed up dyno numbers or a hand grenade.



NO.

Correct

 

[TofastForU_99]

check the reviews of the graveyard before ordeing.. just a warning ... if time and money is not a prob then hit them up.

 

[JacksonAuto]

There are guys trapping +130mph with close to stock weight using the stock 6bolt and running around with them daily for years. There's no fluff with MPH/weight results. Either the pins arn't pulled; or many, many grenades are duds

There are exceptions to every rule. I know guys that can break an anvil with a feather. All I'm saying is that if a cutsomer came to me looking for true 500whp I wouldn't think of using stock rods and pistons. If built engines were a waste then people like me would be out of work.

Good internals aren't just stronger. They allow the engine to make more power. Most are machined to allow you to utilize better rings. They use full floating pins for less friction and heat. The pistons support the rings better. This allows them to seal better reducing blowby and increasing power. They have the ability to better dissipate heat. The list goes on......

Stock pistons have their applications but over 400WHP ain't one of 'em.

 

[Boug]

Good internals aren't just stronger. They allow the engine to make more power. Most are machined to allow you to utilize better rings. They use full floating pins for less friction and heat. The pistons support the rings better. This allows them to seal better reducing blowby and increasing power. They have the ability to better dissipate heat. The list goes on. Stock pistons have their applications but over 400WHP ain't one of 'em.

Sir, you certainly do bring up some nice points on the benefits of having forged internals. I'm learning so much about this topic as I thought I was just asking a simple question before making the final decision as to the direction I should go. Thanks!

 

[slowgsr]

There are exceptions to every rule. I know guys that can break an anvil with a feather. All I'm saying is that if a cutsomer came to me looking for true 500whp I wouldn't think of using stock rods and pistons. If built engines were a waste then people like me would be out of work.

Good internals aren't just stronger. They allow the engine to make more power. Most are machined to allow you to utilize better rings. They use full floating pins for less friction and heat. The pistons support the rings better. This allows them to seal better reducing blowby and increasing power. They have the ability to better dissipate heat. The list goes on......

Stock pistons have their applications but over 400WHP ain't one of 'em.

I went 11.1 @ 130mph with a 1.9 60ft on pump gas and 32psi (s258), on a bone stock high mileage 6 bolt. I had over 100passes on that power level, It would have gone faster but I have no safety equipment, so I couldn't make many FULL passes, I usually let off at 1000ft.

I tuned it myself, Im not a 'tuner'. Its just not rocket science for someone who has done a bit of reading up on EFI theory . I didn't consider my last years setup reliable, I mean.. it stayed together, but I KNEW there was always that chance! The block looked great when I pulled it apart to put in the new engine too, atleast I have a good core for the next build.

However, My new engine is a 'built' 9:1 engine, and heck yeah.. built engines are just more efficient, I wouldn't put a 72mm turbo on a stock engine anyways!

 

[GORBS88]

A well built shortblock will be more reliable and make more power. Period. Stock rods/pistons are good to around 400whp with a competent tuner on the keyboard. Stock internals and 500+ is either fluffed up dyno numbers or a hand grenade.



Fluffed up dyno numbers? or PROVEN dyno numbers AND weight VS MPH to back the the dyno numbers.?

 

[Boug]

However, My new engine is a 'built' 9:1 engine, and heck yeah.. built engines are just more efficient, I wouldn't put a 72mm turbo on a stock engine anyways!

And this is the territory that I want to be in once the additional power begins - PEACE of mind due to a more efficient engine. Sweet. What are your thoughts of the S256, by the way? Could you send me a PM in order for the thread to remain uncluttered? Thanks.

 

[dsm-onster]

Building a forged motor for your 500whp application is fine.

Just keep in mind, many get away with that using a bone stock high mileage 6 bolt. The business is there for higher hp numbers. Folks are doing this every day. What I'm stating is that number one on your list in the starting post is not an option. You already have those rods/pistons in your motor right now and they are obviously within spec on the big ends because the motor isn't blown. Run a compression check and see if the rings are in good shape, if they are. Then number one is a complete waste. If they are weak, then a simple re-ring and spec-ing the block and rods are all you need to have the same results as number one on that list.

The advantage of a typical forged piston is certainly its ability to dissipate heat better and helping the ring seal. Primarily you get to choose the compression you want. This is where the real efficiency comes into play. Most guys shooting for 450-500whp would be happy for something less than 500whp; am I right? That's why they state 450-500. Not +500. I feel that 500whp is the safe cut off for stock pistons with 6bolt rods. Could you build something that makes a little more power with the same boost/setup? Sure. but you don't want to make more than 500whp. The question is whether the efficiency is worth the cost. Because, yes the stock block in your car (the 6bolt) takes that abuse all the time around here. The business is for those that want more. Either they see the cost worth the value in higher efficiency or most likely they are certain they are goign to want more in the near future.

Now, if you're fairly certain you're going to want more in the near future. Sure, go for eagle/wiseco or eagle/ross now There's nothing wrong with that. Plan for which fuel you're going to use and build accordingly. But you can bum around on a 475whp setup with the stock block in your car for years if you wanted, inefficient compression ratio and slightly more blowby when at peak torque and all. It won't break with a decent tune which should always be on the list.

Everything is opinion but these:

--6bolt motors all to frequently take 450-500whp abuse and are driven frequently
--You need a fair tune to keep your 6bolt safe at this level
--A good tune can be achieved by the novice using a quality/complete tuning solution
--Forged motors certainly tend to be more efficient
--You can chose your own CR with a forged motor; HUGE plus even for sub 500whp guys
--Swapping out 6bolt rods and stock pistons for other 6bolt rods and stock pistons (number 1 on your list) is a waste of money

 

[Boug]

Building a forged motor for your 500whp application is fine.

Just keep in mind, many get away with that using a bone stock high mileage 6 bolt. The business is there for higher hp numbers. Folks are doing this every day. What I'm stating is that number one on your list in the starting post is not an option. You already have those rods/pistons in your motor right now and they are obviously within spec on the big ends because the motor isn't blown. Run a compression check and see if the rings are in good shape, if they are. Then number one is a complete waste. If they are weak, then a simple re-ring and spec-ing the block and rods are all you need to have the same results as number one on that list.

The advantage of a typical forged piston is certainly its ability to dissipate heat better and helping the ring seal. Primarily you get to choose the compression you want. This is where the real efficiency comes into play. Most guys shooting for 450-500whp would be happy for something less than 500whp; am I right? That's why they state 450-500. Not +500. I feel that 500whp is the safe cut off for stock pistons with 6bolt rods. Could you build something that makes a little more power with the same boost/setup? Sure. but you don't want to make more than 500whp. The question is whether the efficiency is worth the cost. Because, yes the stock block in your car (the 6bolt) takes that abuse all the time around here. The business is for those that want more. Either they see the cost worth the value in higher efficiency or most likely they are certain they are goign to want more in the near future.

Now, if you're fairly certain you're going to want more in the near future. Sure, go for eagle/wiseco or eagle/ross now There's nothing wrong with that. Plan for which fuel you're going to use and build accordingly. But you can bum around on a 475whp setup with the stock block in your car for years if you wanted, inefficient compression ratio and slightly more blowby when at peak torque and all. It won't break with a decent tune which should always be on the list.

Everything is opinion but these:

--6bolt motors all to frequently take 450-500whp abuse and are driven frequently
--You need a fair tune to keep your 6bolt safe at this level
--A good tune can be achieved by the novice using a quality/complete tuning solution
--Forged motors certainly tend to be more efficient
--You can chose your own CR with a forged motor; HUGE plus even for sub 500whp guys
--Swapping out 6bolt rods and stock pistons for other 6bolt rods and stock pistons (number 1 on your list) is a waste of money

Matt, first off, I appreciate you taking the time to make such a detailed post. It is good for me to see (read) posts of the "go with x" kind without any explanation. So again, thanks. Yes, a solid tune will most certainly be in order as I know that 300whp with a crappy tune can destroy an engine. My tuner here in southern Arizona is very well respected. I will certainly have him take a detailed look at things throughout the process. Previous mistakes made with my EVO has taught me to cost of pushing things to the razor's edge on my daily driver leaving a tune without room for error. This will not happen with my 1G. You are absolutely right about the fact I'll be happy with something less than 500whp. My EVO (before the big kaboom) was tuned for 411whp on E85 @ 28PSI with the stock VIII turbo and I loved it (although it only lasted for eight days). So, would 450whp make me smile? Yes, sir! Will I want more power in the future? Probably not as I'm trying to knock this car out as my kids are getting older (13, 11, and 5) and I'm not trying to let my hobby take away from them. The window is closing and I need to hurry quick.

 

[dsm-onster]

Build a forged motor then leave them the car as an inheritance. They can take it however far they want

 

[Boug]

Build a forged motor then leave them the car as an inheritance. They can take it however far they want

You're right. My son (the oldest) got really sad when he thought I was going to get rid of the DSM in favor of another EVO because he already has his mind up that the car is his although it's nearly all gutted out (minus the two seats).

PM sent!

 

[GORBS88]

Matt, first off, I appreciate you taking the time to make such a detailed post. It is good for me to see (read) posts of the "go with x" kind without any explanation. So again, thanks. Yes, a solid tune will most certainly be in order as I know that 300whp with a crappy tune can destroy an engine. My tuner here in southern Arizona is very well respected. I will certainly have him take a detailed look at things throughout the process. Previous mistakes made with my EVO has taught me to cost of pushing things to the razor's edge on my daily driver leaving a tune without room for error. This will not happen with my 1G. You are absolutely right about the fact I'll be happy with something less than 500whp. My EVO (before the big kaboom) was tuned for 411whp on E85 @ 28PSI with the stock VIII turbo and I loved it (although it only lasted for eight days). So, would 450whp make me smile? Yes, sir! Will I want more power in the future? Probably not as I'm trying to knock this car out as my kids are getting older (13, 11, and 5) and I'm not trying to let my hobby take away from them. The window is closing and I need to hurry quick.

Well i'm going to have to say that IF your motor blew up making 411whp on E85 there MUST of been a problem with the tune! only 8 days it lasted? Eeeek.. 450whp driven daily on the 6 bolt will be MORE then reliable.

Save some money for the kids!!

 

[Boug]

Well i'm going to have to say that IF your motor blew up making 411whp on E85 there MUST of been a problem with the tune! only 8 days it lasted? Eeeek.. 450whp driven daily on the 6 bolt will be MORE then reliable.

Save some money for the kids!!

Thanks, my friend! Yes, the guy who did the tune admitted that there was a mistake made during the tune and a second party verified that there was in fact something wrong with my ROM and that my cams were out of correct timing during installation. I couldn't get the issue resolved due to the fact that shortly afterwards (as the car sat) my EVO was broken in to and considered a total loss which is why I'm now rolling on the DSM scene. I figured that I could make that much more power at only a fraction of the cost without having a car payment so that there's more cheese to be spent on the kids.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Fluffed up dyno numbers? or PROVEN dyno numbers AND weight VS MPH to back the the dyno numbers.?

I'm not contesting that it hasn't been done. I'm just saying that it's an unreliable power level for stock components and a properly built and upgraded shortblock would make more power longer.