Comp 6465 Turbo spins and spins.

[turboboy4]

What the hell does it matter honestly? The guy is excited about his new setup and obviously it must spin longer than the turbo on his old setup. I dont think he was coming on here to try to teach or get lectured on a physics or air flow experiment. Its a nice setup man and hopefully it meets you goals and expectations

 

[tenn-gsx]

OK. Gocha. There was evidence of this on more than one 3575 sized turbo but ok.

 

[keltalon]

It's only about moments of inertia about the axis of spin damped by friction of the bearings (and of course the viscosity of the fluid mediums).

Also, consider this; If two ball bearings is all you need to axially support a shaft (since virtually no bending forces are being applied to the shaft), why would you want to add another friction adding bearing to the mix? It will only increase the amount of torque required to spin the mechanism.

Just sayin, "triple ball bearing" turbos are a marketing gimmick.

I think you need to do your homework before you post infomation like this. Let me explain what comp turbo was thinking when they impemented the triple ball bearing unit into the market. Two reasonably thin angular contact bearings mounted back to back on the compressor end of the bearing carrier act like a single double row bearing carrying thrust in both directions. The single turbine end bearing is free to move when the shaft expands axially since it does not carry any rotor thrust. The three full compliment bearings have less friction loss than two deep groove bearings since they don’t have the friction drag of ball cages. The faster acceleration of the three bearing system is due to the use of bearings that have minimal friction drag. The mechanical efficiency of the system is close to 99%.


Good bearing system stability is achieved by allowing the rotor assembly to find and rotate about its center of mass. This is achieved with the three bearing system by providing an oil film around the outside diameter of the bearing carrier and allowing the bearing carrier to rotate at a small fraction of the speed of the rotor assembly. Having the proper ration of bearing span to overhung mass on each end of the rotor assembly contributes to good bearing system stability. The three bearing system meets these criteria and exhibits excellent rotor/bearing system shaft motion characteristics.


Ball bearing systems have much better stability characteristics than sleeve bearing systems since the phenomenon of "oil whirl", where the load carrying ability of the oil film goes to zero, cannot occur as it can with floating sleeve bearing systems.

What the hell does it matter honestly? The guy is excited about his new setup and obviously it must spin longer than the turbo on his old setup. I dont think he was coming on here to try to teach or get lectured on a physics or air flow experiment. Its a nice setup man and hopefully it meets you goals and expectations

Well they kinda push me into the lecturing stage

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I think you need to do your homework before you post infomation like this. Let me explain what comp turbo was thinking when they impemented the triple ball bearing unit into the market. Two reasonably thin angular contact bearings mounted back to back on the compressor end of the bearing carrier act like a single double row bearing carrying thrust in both directions. The single turbine end bearing is free to move when the shaft expands axially since it does not carry any rotor thrust. The three full compliment bearings have less friction loss than two deep groove bearings since they don't have the friction drag of ball cages. The faster acceleration of the three bearing system is due to the use of bearings that have minimal friction drag. The mechanical efficiency of the system is close to 99%.


Good bearing system stability is achieved by allowing the rotor assembly to find and rotate about its center of mass. This is achieved with the three bearing system by providing an oil film around the outside diameter of the bearing carrier and allowing the bearing carrier to rotate at a small fraction of the speed of the rotor assembly. Having the proper ration of bearing span to overhung mass on each end of the rotor assembly contributes to good bearing system stability. The three bearing system meets these criteria and exhibits excellent rotor/bearing system shaft motion characteristics.


Ball bearing systems have much better stability characteristics than sleeve bearing systems since the phenomenon of "oil whirl", where the load carrying ability of the oil film goes to zero, cannot occur as it can with floating sleeve bearing systems.



Well they kinda push me into the lecturing stage

Except that it's not two bearings back to back acting as a single double row bearing...

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So If I may ask what kind of numbers are you pulling and putting down with this thing By the way a smaller turbo will have the tendency to spin longer!

Also just noticed this post. This a completely incorrect statement. The unit with the larger moment of inertia (larger wheel) should spin longer (neglecting frictional damping effects).

 

[keltalon]

Why did you get rid of the 6265 you just got a few months ago?

My air filter came off and something damaged my billet compressor wheel. I took the turbo off and sent it in to comp and they did not have a 62mm billet compressor wheel in stock and ask me if I would like the 64mm wheel and I said of course or else I would have had to wait a week or two for a 62mm wheel to come in didn't want to wait. Free upgrade

 

[tenn-gsx]

Hmm.... Guess I need to read more on my turbo. When I got my turbo they specifically mentioned the ability of the 3 bearings to support the shaft better than 2. This was a concern to me at the time as that was mentioned as a highly probable contributing factor in the failure of my previous turbo. Guess maybe because of my concerns and what they told me 2+2= 4.5 for me rather than 4. OOPS!

 

[keltalon]

Except that it's not two bearings back to back acting as a single double row bearing...

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Also just noticed this post. This a completely incorrect statement. The unit with the larger moment of inertia (larger wheel) should spin longer (neglecting frictional damping effects).

This is not a comp turbo picture or design. this quote is taken directly from comp turbo website "In the proprietary Comp Turbo ball bearing system, the angular contact bearings are mounted in an elongated steel cylinder that is free to rotate in the bearing housing. The outside diameter of the cylinder is fed with lube oil and this outer oil film provides a cushion against shock and vibration. Two angular contact bearings are mounted in tandem on the compressor end of the cylinder in an arrangement that carries rotor thrust in both axial directions. A single angular contact bearing is mounted under pre-load on the turbine end of the cylinder and is free to move axially with shaft elongation when heat is conducted down the shaft from the hot turbine wheel. The elongated steel cylinder containing the angular contact bearings represents the complete bearing system and can be inserted and/or removed as an assembly, making the Comp Turbo turbocharger fully serviceable and rebuildable."

Except that it's not two bearings back to back acting as a single double row bearing...

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Also just noticed this post. This a completely incorrect statement. The unit with the larger moment of inertia (larger wheel) should spin longer (neglecting frictional damping effects).

I stand by my post 100%.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I stand by my post 100%.

Then you don't understand basic rotational physics.

 

[keltalon]

Then you don't understand basic rotational physics.

Well what I do understand is the turbo is a complete monster and I am very satisfied with its performance. So can we move forward

 

[big_d]

I'm with Boosted98gsx. Hopefully it performs well for you. Carry on.

 

[keltalon]

I'm with Boosted98gsx. Hopefully it performs well for you. Carry on.

Not a problem we all do our own thing what matters most is being happy wiith your set up and I am more than happy. the turbo is no dout doing its thing to my satifaction. my goal has been 600 daily driven hp and I know I am putting well over that down and can't ask for more. What impressive most is full boost come around 4700rpm. and as soon as I record these numbers I will start making way for the 700hp mark.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

No rev pre-shutoff. Idle at 1k rpms with FP3's (with some significant overlap, so slower exhaust due to reversion).

Turbo spins 40secs, just as long as yours did.

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I talked to some of the higher ups in the turbo industry to expand my knowledge on dual vs triple ball bearings. What I got was this (little geometry lesson inbound).

To define a line (the shaft for this argument) you need 2 points (the bearings). Theoretically you can add more points on that line, but it's still only a line defined by the original two points. Now in real life, try creating a third point DIRECTLY on that previously defined line. You cannot, plain and simple. There will always be an offset. This is why triple ball bearing turbos are a gimmick. You will never gain anything by having more than 2 radial support bearings in a turbo. In fact, adding more will cause more harm than good, because of the inherent drag incurred to the rotating shaft.

 

[keltalon]

No rev pre-shutoff. Idle at 1k rpms with FP3's (with some significant overlap, so slower exhaust due to reversion).

Turbo spins 40secs, just as long as yours did.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

I talked to some of the higher ups in the turbo industry to expand my knowledge on dual vs triple ball bearings. What I got was this (little geometry lesson inbound).

To define a line (the shaft for this argument) you need 2 points (the bearings). Theoretically you can add more points on that line, but it's still only a line defined by the original two points. Now in real life, try creating a third point DIRECTLY on that previously defined line. You cannot, plain and simple. There will always be an offset. This is why triple ball bearing turbos are a gimmick. You will never gain anything by having more than 2 radial support bearings in a turbo. In fact, adding more will cause more harm than good, because of the inherent drag incurred to the rotating shaft.

Frankly I don't care who you talk to! I have never gave much attention to what people think when it comes to modifying my car. If what I put on it doesn't work after much research I move on. After 10 yrs of modifying I would have to say that what I have chosen thuss far have giving me the results that I have aimed far .So basically the numbers are what matter most to all of us on these forums so post the results. Mine is In my profile is that yours in your profile I guess case closed if you are happy with your set up then so be it because as mention in above post I am certainly happy with mine. I post results and if people don't like it then I don't give a rat's @$$. These are 536hp driveway engineered wheel horsepower son! Do you hear what I am saying? I think I will go out and do a couple of WOT pulls the car haven't been driven all week!

 

[Colt90tsi]

I post results and if people don't like it then I don't give a rat's @$$. These are 536hp driveway engineered wheel horsepower son! Do you hear what I am saying? I think I will go out and do a couple of WOT pulls the car haven't been driven all week!

That's what I'm talking bout

And dont let Boosted98gsx get to you, he does that on every forum and nobody really likes him anyways

 

[Boosted98gsx]

That's what I'm talking bout

And dont let Boosted98gsx get to you, he does that on every forum and nobody really likes him anyways

until they need actual engineering advice.

 

[keltalon]

until they need actual engineering advice.

I don't really want to clutter this thread with a back and forth with you I don't think the moderators will consider this conduct becoming of members such as you and I Pm me if you have further concerns about my intentions with my car and we will continue the discussion through PM By the way I like your avatar pic looks like the car is trying to say something .

 

[BIGBLAZE79]

I must say that is one mean a$$ Spider you got there. Way to rep in Georgia!

 

[KazooGS-T]

until they need actual engineering advice.

I'm curious where your ability to give engineering advice comes from. Curious as to if you're a college student, professional, or avid reader of physics and engineering principles. Either way, you're somewhat on line however there are many other variables you didn't account for, but we'll leave those alone

 

[keltalon]

I must say that is one mean a$$ Spider you got there. Way to rep in Georgia!

Thanks Bro! It has been a long road to get to this power level one freakin part upgrade at a time I still haven't dynoed this turbo as of yet I still need to get a few fuel upgraded items to complete what i need for the fuel needs Its coming.

 

[spoolin ddub]

Im no engineer but i do know it is not the turbo still spinning after the motor is shut off that is impressive about Comp Turbo. Because actually most PTE and Garrett's spin longer after the motor is shut off. But they can not touch the boost recovery between shifts or the spoolup from what i've seen on my turbo. I run a custom 7071 (70mm compressor and a 71mm exducer /80mm inducer turbine in a 1.01 a/r T4 housing). My motors compression isn't high (8.5:1). What people forget to account for is I run all 3"piping, a 4' IC, a huge intake manifold and a Q45 TB. Not a 3"IC or 2" piping and a stock TB etc. With all that huge piping it should be laggy as hell but it isnt. I see positive boost at 3K. I looked at one of my friends old dyno sheets and my car spools faster than his 9.5:1 car did with a masterpower T70 (70mm comp with a p-trim turbine) in a .68 a/r T4 housing .

 

[keltalon]

Im no engineer but i do know it is not the turbo still spinning after the motor is shut off that is impressive about Comp Turbo. Because actually most PTE and Garrett's spin longer after the motor is shut off. But they can not touch the boost recovery between shifts or the spoolup from what i've seen on my turbo. I run a custom 7071 (70mm compressor and a 71mm exducer /80mm inducer turbine in a 1.01 a/r T4 housing). My motors compression isn't high (8.5:1). What people forget to account for is I run all 3"piping, a 4' IC, a huge intake manifold and a Q45 TB. Not a 3"IC or 2" piping and a stock TB etc. With all that huge piping it should be laggy as hell but it isnt. I see positive boost at 3K. I looked at one of my friends old dyno sheets and my car spools faster than his 9.5:1 car did with a masterpower T70 (70mm comp with a p-trim turbine) in a .68 a/r T4 housing .

Hey bro I was waiting for you to chime in I posted the video not to show that comp turbos spin longer ,being that this was my first ball bearing unit I was somewhat impressed with the thing spinning.

I would not have ever video taped the thing if I wasn't in the process of changing my radiator. All of a sudden I get jumped that there are turbos that spin longer and all this physics of turbo genectics, shape , body composition, wheel weight, who the turbo moma and daddy is and so forth. I said what the That is why I brought the tread back to the performance aspect of the turbo. The thing is freakin awesome. I keep saying it over and over chose your set up and be happy. My thinking is simple balance your mods so that they will complement each other.

I get tons of pm's asking for help reaching 500 streetable horsepower and I give my advise and from time to time I get much thanks. I do the same thing in trying to reach 600 whp Finally. I think I am more than there just need to put this turbo to the test 81lbs/min. Economy is hurting the progress need fuel support badly. and was already mention its coming and maybe I can some of these aprehensive fools

This is 536 streetable horsepower. My old bw s259

 

[spoolin ddub]

Hey bro I was waiting for you to chime in I posted the video not to show that comp turbos spin longer ,being that this was my first ball bearing unit I was somewhat impressed with the thing spinning.

I would not have ever video taped the thing if I wasn't in the process of changing my radiator. All of a sudden I get jumped that there are turbos that spin longer and all this physics of turbo genectics, shape , body composition, wheel weight, who the turbo moma and daddy is and so forth. I said what the That is why I brought the tread back to the performance aspect of the turbo. The thing is freakin awesome. I keep saying it over and over chose your set up and be happy. My thinking is simple balance your mods so that they will complement each other.

I get tons of pm's asking for help reaching 500 streetable horsepower and I give my advise and from time to time I get much thanks. I do the same thing in trying to reach 600 whp Finally. I think I am more than there just need to put this turbo to the test 81lbs/min. Economy is hurting the progress need fuel support badly. and was already mention its coming and maybe I can some of these aprehensive fools

This is 536 streetable horsepower. My old bw s259

I wanted to see what direction the thread went in before i chimed in. I understand you are just excited and it's nothing wrong with that. I'm more than glad you are happy. I was the same way and I got attacked. All I know is this. There is a video of me and a 2g with a HX35 in my profile. I know how my car felt then and i didnt even rev to 9K (like 7K) and that was with 2 boost leaks and only 7* of peak timing. The way the car felt once ONE leak was fixed! In the same situation i would have put 4 or more cars lengths on him at the same boost! I understand how excited you are Keltalon but its hard to explain excitement. The only way to show them is to show them. Like I can't explain the feeling when you take a guy with a 708whp GT500 for a ride in your car and your car is spinning in 2nd & 3rd pushing him back in your seat and he says its no way in hell I can beat you. But what he dosen't understand is the concept of a boostleak and how much power you are losing because you are only at 24psi dropping to 16psi by 6700rpm! Asking yourself how much faster will I be just holding 24psi to 9200rpm?

 

[jrohner]

My Holset HX35 spins for a long time too actually. You should have shut it off from an idle instead of cheating by revving it first.

 

[keltalon]

My Holset HX35 spins for a long time too actually. You should have shut it off from an idle instead of cheating by revving it first.

Hey I would like to see this go ahead and post that video if you don't mind

 

[jrohner]

I have no engine or transmission in my 2G right now. I'm probably goona make a divided manifold and put the HX35 on my 1G though.