2G Clutch bleeding not working?

[Tigerinstincts]

Driving home Saturday night and felt my clutch pedal go mushy while shifting. I was able to drive it until I came to a red light then I had to call a tow truck. It has a exedy stage 3 clutch from previous owner and I've had the car about a year and half now since I bought it.
I got it to the shop I work at and ordered both clutch master cylinder and slave cylinder and bled according to the guide everyone recommends on this site (friend depresses clutch, I open bleeder screw, I close bleeder screw, friend slowly lifts clutch pedal off the floor.) Also I had a vacuum hose attached to the bleeder screw which led to the other end of the hose being submerged in a bottle of brake fluid so no extra air gets in through the bleeder. Bled the system 10 to 15 times using this method with no luck. This also includes me bleeding the slave cylinder individually by having my friend fully depress the slave cylinder rod with a c clamp and me opening and closing the bleeder screw then he releases the c clamp.
I have access to a vacuum bleeder and pulled a whole bottle of dot 3 brake fluid through the system to get any other little extra air bubbles that may still be in the system. Still no luck and I think I've gone through at least 3 bottles of brake fluid total.
Also I checked the slave cylinder rod to see if it moves while my friend depresses the clutch pedal and it moves just about an inch so I'm pretty sure my hydraulic system is ok.
What am I missing? Possibly clutch assembly problem?

 

[idt512]

Are you making sure the reservoir never goes empty while bleeding it?

 

[2gmitsueclipse]

A mushy pedal usually indicates there is still air in the system. You stated that it was mushy, which is why you replaced the master and slave cylinders. Currently, does your pedal still feel the same?

Additionally, have you adjusted the clutch mater cylinder like shown below?

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[jakk220]

Did you bench bleed the master cylinder? Sometimes you have to bench bleed the master cylinder before you put it on the car to get all of the air out of it. There can be a pocket of air that sits inside of it that bleeding may not always get. Also I know there can be a pocket of air that sits in the slave cylinder that normal bleeding doesn't get. You have to get under the car (having a second person helps here) and open the bleeder screw and push the clutch fork / slave rod into the slave cylinder. So the opposite way it goes normally, and then close the bleeder while your holding it in.

 

[jakk220]

Also let it gravity bleed for a little while. Like 6 or 7 reservoirs full. I' have bled brakes before that absolutely would not bleed at all until I let them gravity bleed for a while. Hope this help.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Resevoir was monitored and never went empty.

And yeah I forgot to state that the pedal still feels mushy and only gets normal clutch feel when near the bottom of the floor. The car will not go into gear with all the bleeding I've done while its running but will shift into each gear easily except reverse while its not running.

That video is one I was following as well. I redid the bench bleeding for both clutch master and slave cylinder, and then adjusted the clutch pedal all the way out and all the way in. Still no shifting available when the car is running.

Also I let the car gravity bleed the night before. All my coworkers say clutch systems are a B!TCH to bleed.

I'm thinking I have a very small leak in the rubber line or there is air in that little square resevoir thing on the transmission...

 

[chrysler kid]

There's always an air bubble that sits on the top of the clutch line where it connects to the master.

Use the vacuum gun in the resevoir, put a vacuum on the line at the bottom of the masters resevoir cup. Then get in the car and slowly depress the clutch pedal and then slowly raise it manually. As you depress the pedal the master will let the air pocket get sucked back up into the resevoir.

Basically air bubbles want to go up, and the master only wants to push down without letting anything come back up into the resevoir to keep pressure.

You won't see large bubbles coming out, it will look like carbonation from a soda coming up the hose with the vacuum on it

I've had to reverse bleed brake systems from having air in the lines to the master, and air in the lines at the abs control module for the same reason

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Well thank you guys so much for all the input but I do have some bad news and good news.

Bad news my clutch fork is snapped in half..
Good news is looks like I can properly bleed my hydraulic system haha

Anyway my shop has this fiber optic camera like in Rainbow Six Vegas 2 where you can stick it under doors and see the enemy(dnt know what's its actually called) and I see that the clutch fork is in half on one side. I forgot to mention too that when I moved the clutch fork by hand where the slave cylinder rod pushes on it, it actually twists a little rather smoothly moving back and forth which makes sense now since the fork is only partially moving the pp. I wish I could upload the video to show you all how cool it looks with this camera but all my coworkers went home and idk where they keep it.

I don't get how I did it but its definitely broken. I wasnt even gunning the car when it happened ol oh well, time for rebuild.

 

[chrysler kid]

Oscilloscope, they rent them out at autozone but I actually bought one from walmart made by whistler for $79 that works great

Hopefuly you can get it fixed quickly

 

[ThunderChild]

Oscilloscope, they rent them out at autozone but I actually bought one from walmart made by whistler for $79 that works great

Hopefuly you can get it fixed quickly

I think you mean a bore-scope.

An oscilloscope takes a 2 dimensional reading of wave-forms or magnetic pulses, such as ignition or audio wave forms, or hal-effect pickups in cam or crank sensors.

Similar to how link will log certain sensors, or extrapolate information from certain wave forms so we can view them.

OP, glad u got it diagnosed and k ow how to bleed your system well
The clutch fork was probably well worn and just picked that time to die. Don't even need to be thrashing it really. Now is a good time to get the upgraded fork or even try the internal slave cylinder that 94awdcoupe has done (tho that is more involved).

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Yeah I was gonna say I dnt think it's an oscilloscope because I actually use those in my electronics tech class. In regards to finishing this quickly I actually have quite a bit of time luckily so I think I'm just gonna pull the whole engine with the trans and freshen up the motor. Might as well.

And I think this is the original clutch fork since the last owner seemed to half ass most of the other things on the car (not even a lower timing cover when I bought it.) Paired with the exedy stage 3 clutch and I can see why it failed.

Ill have to look into this internal slave cylinder you speak of as I've never heard of it until now and I follow 94awdcoupe builds somewhat closely, specifically his Evo x turbo fab.

 

[ThunderChild]

you definitely could do that. im a firm believer in if it aint broke, dont fix it, or if you choose to, do it all the way.

i just found his mentioning of it the other day myself, and have looked at a couple threads where he lightly goes over it. i believe its a saab unit he moddified a little bit. i intend to ask him some more questions in the future, but for now ill see how far the stock stuff will go.

i too have looked into his evo x turbo setups. im loosely planning a setup i want to try, but thats down the road after i get the car running well on an evo 8 ecu, and finish an evo 8 turbo on speed density.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Yeah I'll have to read some of his threads then. His Evo x turbo seems pretty straight forward so long as you have the right tools to do everything. I'm really interested in it as it may be just as expensive as a holset setup tbh with crazier spool and less peak hp. Idk how much less but I know those holsets are monsters in the higher pressure ranges.

But speaking of right tools and trying to keep this thread somewhat on topic, if it weren't for the bore-scope I would have never guessed my clutch fork was snapped. What's funny tho is my coworker tested the pedal feel and knew right away something was not right with clutch assembly. He's driven my car before and felt how heavy the exedy clutch is and immediately knew something was off. What confirms his concerns even more was that the clutch pedal had pressure and moved the slave rod just about an inch which is normal, but the pedal still just felt loose.

You have the Evo 8 turbo fitted to your dsm already? That is no small feat no matter how simple ppl make it sound.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Ok finally got the transmission back in and I started up the car and there's this whirring noise coming from the tranny. The clutch hydralic system is not together so I cannot disenage the clutch at all atm. So the noise is currently happening with the clutch pedal not pushed in.

During installation of the new clutch fork, I put in a new OEM tob and made sure I greased the shaft where the tob sits. The old tob was shot as well but never made a whirring sound like what it is doing now. Also before the tranny teardown, the tranny never made any type of noise close to the sound I'm hearing now. Transmission is filled with 2qts Valvoline 75w90 and .5 qts of penzoil sychromesh. Reason is to flush tranny of old fluid as best I can and then switch to redline in about month.

I did not dissamble the pressure plate or clutch when I removed my tranny as I ddnt think I needed to since I was just replacing clutch fork and tob. Also I made sure i put the retaining clip on the clutch fork with tob attached.

Any ideas what this whirring sound might be? I'll be using the bore scope tomorrow to verify everything is intact internally as best I can.

 

[ThunderChild]

im guessing the sound is rpm based? how loud is it?
seems like you covered all the bases. if the hydraulics are fully withdrawn right now, then it may be intermittent contact of the tob on the clutch fingers, causing a slight "whirring" sound.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

I did rev the motor all the way up and down and in between my rev limiter which is set at 4k but I can't hear it with the exhaust being so loud. It may do it but I will have someone listen tomorrow while I rev the motor to see if they can hear it. The whirring sound is definitely audible inside the cabin and louder when I'm standing in front of the car but not crazy loud, just has me concerned enough tho.

Another thing is I ddnt put a lot of grease on the tob, more like a light coat but I used grease that we use in bushings for suspension (ie. ball joints and multilink suspension). Idk if that's ok or not but I figured it was better than nothing. I put antiseize on the input shaft splines as well since it had light surface rust on it (which i did clean up)..not sure if I was supposed to grease that or not.

The sound wasn't there when the car first started up but once it warmed up and the idle became constant, I could hear it. Also it's not constant but happens often. What I mean is it will whirr (not sure if that's a word) for a couple seconds, stop for a couple seconds, then do it again for a couple seconds, etc.

 

[ThunderChild]

i think what you are hearing is intermittent touching of the TOB to the clutch finger springs. as long as you didnt over grease anything i think you will be fine. the grease you used isnt ideal, but like you said, better than nothing.

once you get the clutch hydraulics sorted out, i wouldnt be surprised if the sound disappears or goes away almost completely.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Hope that's all it is but itk makes sense since it never made the sound before, I ddnt touch the clutch assembly, and only replaced the clutch fork and tob.

Will post results tomorrow with bore scope observations and see what happens when she's driving/clutch hydraulic system assembled.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Ok so everything is assembled now and I can get it into 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th but no reverse...the whirring noise went away btw but I dnt get why reverse wont engage. With the car on and off, it won't go into gear so any suggestions? Cables look to be intact

 

[gsxeclipse102]

Look on the transmission where the shift levers are. The fact you can get into 5th and 4th but not reverse makes me think something is stopping the levers from moving all the way. Does it move in the direction but not engage or does it feel like its blocked out completely

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Feels like it's blocked out completely. I'm about to go on a test drive soon but also I hear a light grinding noise too coming from the tranny. Goes away when I push the clutch in

 

[livedsm4g63]

Sounds like the pedal isnt adjusted correctly. The noise is more then likely a TOB. (Had this same issue awhile back)
My issue also consisted of all gears but reverse.

How I solved it.
Replace the plastic bushing located inbetween the shifting linkage on the transmission. (Not the cables)
Moved pedal so I couldnt hear grinding
Adjusted the linkage under the shifter.
Found out I had a warn pedal assembly and sent it off to Shep for a rebuild.

 

[gsxeclipse102]

Noise sounds like tob but you already changed that Id look under the hood brfore driving the car. Make sure you didnt drop a tool or something stupid by the shift levers. With the car off you should be able to engage any gears effortlessly.

 

[livedsm4g63]

Noise sounds like tob but you already changed that Id look under the hood brfore driving the car. Make sure you didnt drop a tool or something stupid by the shift levers. With the car off you should be able to engage any gears effortlessly.

If the linkage isnt set right it wont allow it with the car off. Process of elimination.

 

[Tigerinstincts]

Unfortunately I have class soon so illl have to tackle this tomorrow but everyone at the shop I work at also agrees I did something to the shifting cables. Especially since all the other gears go in somewhat easily with the car on or off. They all feel a little notchy which makes me think it's the cables even more.

The light grinding noise is the same I heard before I broke my clutch fork but I never paid any attention to it. Since the last tob was shot, I wonder if the cables were always misadjusted and eventually led to the clutch fork failure.