Resolved Bleeding new lifters?

[92_talonGsXt]

I'm about to buy new 3g lash lifters for my car. Do I need to bleed them even though there new or do I need to soak them in oil and then bleed them?

 

[Lonewolf64]

If they are brand new, then all you need to do is install them. I recommend you pull out the MPI relay and crank the car a few times to prime the system, and then start it up. If you are unsure on how to remove/install lifters, there is a great write up on VFAQ Site - Visual Frequently Answered Questions

 

[donniekak]

I would at least soak them in very thin oil first. The big lash adjusters are really easy to prime because of the big hole. You can pump them up with a paper clip if you want. If you run your car with a lifter without oil in it you run a risk of rocker and cam damage. No matter what you do use the method listed above and turn the car over without starting it to ensure they are fully primed.

 

[snowborder714]

I would follow the instructions under the "Priming/draining the Lash Adjusters" section.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/265060-how-replace-lash-adjusters-lifters.html

 

[turboglenn]

I just put in 3g revised lifters from "Topline" and they already had oil in them and would have required bleeding. Instead I used an old trick I was told by a guy and it works, but requires patience.

You can just straight install them, put the cams back in and wait overnight (8 - 12 hours i was told) and they will bleed down to where they should be. I tested this theory with the head off the car and it worked great.

The guy I know who told me to do this has done countless installs with the head on and has never had an issue. He just won't start or let the customer pick up the car until the next day and they are always fine.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

Ok, never dealt with DSM lifters, and about at wits ends. Did a head gasket change and was at the point of installing cams when it was time to bleed down lifters, but these things would not budge at all.. watched a couple videos and it looked like a slam dunk until I tried to use an Allen wrench to bleed off oil (which I had all lifters soaking in oil) but the hole in the top of the lifter was barely big enough for a pin.. I tried pushing down with a pin but still no movement.. what is the gig here..?? How many different lifters are there..??
Pics attached, help..!!

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[dwb]

Have you tried a longer pin or piece of wire? Are you compressing the HLA while probing with the pin? You'll feel it when you get the pin in the right spot because the release valve is spring loaded.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

Have you tried a longer pin or piece of wire? Are you compressing the HLA while probing with the pin? You'll feel it when you get the pin in the right spot because the release valve is spring loaded.

Thanks for the reply. What I ended up doing is letting the lifters soak in diesel fuel for a bit, (was watching a guy online for all this) then I put them in a vice and started squeezing it. The excess crap that was inside started oozing out the side port. It was a slow process as the squeezing went in about 15* at a time. I did two rounds of this for all 16 of ‘em and when all was said and done, you could collapse the lifters by a finger squeeze.

Worked well, I hope

 

[curt-s]

A vice?! In 16 years I've never heard of someone using a vice on them.

You don't need to do force them. The valve requires only a few grams of pressure once you get a thin wire or looong needle in there far enough. It's a long way down, a pin probably got nowhere near it. A strand of solid core 18AWG would have suited you better.

Personally, if you used a vice on them, I'd throw them out.
But I would have thrown them out anyway because those are the early versions that everyone replaces anyway.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

A vice?! In 16 years I've never heard of someone using a vice on them.

You don't need to do force them. The valve requires only a few grams of pressure once you get a thin wire or looong needle in there far enough. It's a long way down, a pin probably got nowhere near it. A strand of solid core 18AWG would have suited you better.

Personally, if you used a vice on them, I'd throw them out.
But I would have thrown them out anyway because those are the early versions that everyone replaces anyway.

Wasn’t exactly sure what to expect.. it’s not like I clamped them in a vice on the sides of them and started turning with channel locks, very gentle linear compression until bottomed out then back in the diesel, seemed to work so far
I’ll do the same for sure but now I just have to see if it works, I’m intrigued

Have you tried a longer pin or piece of wire? Are you compressing the HLA while probing with the pin? You'll feel it when you get the pin in the right spot because the release valve is spring loaded.

What does it feel like when the release valve is released..??

 

[curt-s]

When you find the valve and open it, the inner part just becomes compressible. There isnt actually something you feel beyond that, it's that light. You just need to find it with a thin solid wire. It's right in the middle.

I know what you were doing with the vice, it was similar to how you compress a belt tensioner if it goes full extend. The only thing is they are two very different things.
Cam shaft lobes pressing against the roller which then presses against the HLA also act as a form of vice but notice that the pressure they exert is within design specifications and does not cause the HLA to lose its attained extension. It maintains itself even if it's held like that for days or months.

By forcing it beyond those parameters, to cause it to reverse oil flow, damage may have been done to them. You'll know when it never stops ticking because it can no longer hold its internal volume of oil. The longer it ticks, the more damage can be done to the roller and the valve stem as everything is supposed to be tight against each other, not slapping around.

However, aside from all that, I'd replace them with new "3g" units anyway. The design revisions make them far superior and there's zero reason, beyond being unable to afford new ones, to keep those old ones.. especially now.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

When you find the valve and open it, the inner part just becomes compressible. There isnt actually something you feel beyond that, it's that light. You just need to find it with a thin solid wire. It's right in the middle.

I know what you were doing with the vice, it was similar to how you compress a belt tensioner if it goes full extend. The only thing is they are two very different things.
Cam shaft lobes pressing against the roller which then presses against the HLA also act as a form of vice but notice that the pressure they exert is within design specifications and does not cause the HLA to lose its attained extension. It maintains itself even if it's held like that for days or months.

By forcing it beyond those parameters, to cause it to reverse oil flow, damage may have been done to them. You'll know when it never stops ticking because it can no longer hold its internal volume of oil. The longer it ticks, the more damage can be done to the roller and the valve stem as everything is supposed to be tight against each other, not slapping around.

However, aside from all that, I'd replace them with new "3g" units anyway. The design revisions make them far superior and there's zero reason, beyond being unable to afford new ones, to keep those old ones.. especially now.

Curt, me thinks you are right.. I slept on it and that’s a great idea.. I’d sleep allot better knowing that the ones I have now are in the bottom of a trash can..
Now. You speak of the 3G’s.. that means stock 3G lifters would drop in to the 2.0 turbo?? That would be great cause I have a ‘00 gt that might be a great donor car, or maybe just get new one’s.. thank you thank you thank you, great info..!!

 

[dwb]

I'm running these with no complaints.

Topline Revised Lifters: Mitsubishi Eclipse 90-99 (MADE IN USA)

Brand new Topline revised lifters. If you are experiencing "ticking" noise during idling/cruising speed, these revised lifters from Topline are the solution! Comes in a complete set of 16! *Fits all 1990-1999 4G63 Motors Part number: LIFMI6

www.extremepsi.com

 

[curt-s]

Curt, me thinks you are right.. I slept on it and that’s a great idea.. I’d sleep allot better knowing that the ones I have now are in the bottom of a trash can..
Now. You speak of the 3G’s.. that means stock 3G lifters would drop in to the 2.0 turbo?? That would be great cause I have a ‘00 gt that might be a great donor car, or maybe just get new one’s.. thank you thank you thank you, great info..!!

No, it's just like "3rd Generation" of the lifter design, for whatever that means. Maybe 1G DSM = 1G, 2G DSM = 2G, 3G HLA = aftermarket? No idea.
They're not from a 3rd gen Eclipse.

@dwb posted good ones, I think basically everybody uses them. I have 14 of the version released before I bought them back in 2009. They look a bit different but have the big oiling holes.
Two I found were slightly collapsible even pumped up, so I think they're the reason I have a bit of top end tick. Definitely sounded like it came from the intake side right where these were. Side by side, funny enough. All the rest are solid. The two I replaced are these exact ones that dwb posted.

Bled them all upside down using a thin allen wrench that barely made contact with the valve, but it did, in order to evacuate the oil already in them, as I'm changing out camshafts. New ones were primed and bled in oil.

Just make sure they can collapse before installing them. Any significant oil in them will cause them to go solid. Only use the valve method, not a vice.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

No, it's just like "3rd Generation" of the lifter design, for whatever that means. Maybe 1G DSM = 1G, 2G DSM = 2G, 3G HLA = aftermarket? No idea.
They're not from a 3rd gen Eclipse.

@dwb posted good ones, I think basically everybody uses them. I have 14 of the version released before I bought them back in 2009. They look a bit different but have the big oiling holes.
Two I found were slightly collapsible even pumped up, so I think they're the reason I have a bit of top end tick. Definitely sounded like it came from the intake side right where these were. Side by side, funny enough. All the rest are solid. The two I replaced are these exact ones that dwb posted.

Bled them all upside down using a thin allen wrench that barely made contact with the valve, but it did, in order to evacuate the oil already in them, as I'm changing out camshafts. New ones were primed and bled in oil.

Just make sure they can collapse before installing them. Any significant oil in them will cause them to go solid. Only use the valve method, not a vice.

Unfortunately I don’t have an Allen wrench that small.. when using the pin method, I could feel the lifter’ give way’ and the pin went all the way in.. I’m gonna try to pump them up today as the cams are in and torqued down.. should be alright because all of them were squishy when all was said and done.. wish me luck

 

[curt-s]

Squishy good.
I just mentioned allens because the small ones are almost perfectly sized in length to open the valve but then the small end of the wrench that has the 90 bend sits on top of the HLA which you can use to continually pump the fluid out of them. That way you're not using the valve body itself to compress the HLA via whatever is holding it open. It's a bit hard to explain but it sounds like you got it anyway.
I still wouldn't use the old ones.. swap them out now before you spend the time on timing and reassembly.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

Squishy good.
I just mentioned allens because the small ones are almost perfectly sized in length to open the valve but then the small end of the wrench that has the 90 bend sits on top of the HLA which you can use to continually pump the fluid out of them. That way you're not using the valve body itself to compress the HLA via whatever is holding it open. It's a bit hard to explain but it sounds like you got it anyway.
I still wouldn't use the old ones.. swap them out now before you spend the time on timing and reassembly.

Thanks man, ya know, I couldn’t find an Allen small enough to fit in the hole.. that’s why I was using pins from my wife’s sewing room,(felt like a covert mission to get em out of there..!!! )
I do respect your opinion but I’m too far gone now, timing belt on, intake on, fuel injectors in, exhaust mani in.. I really was just in the front end to take out AC condenser, once I got in I knew it needed a head gasket cause I was using water but no leaks, and it was getting real hot real fast..
Wish me luck, will post results

 

[curt-s]

I do wish you luck
It's never too far but just note that if it doesn't go quiet after a few kilometers, you need to replace them.

 

[Bigbeanbird]

I do wish you luck
It's never too far but just note that if it doesn't go quiet after a few kilometers, you need to replace them.

Thank you, if they are really noisy I’m not leaving the driveway.. lemme ask you this, are these cars famous for consuming dropped nuts and bolts..??

 

[curt-s]

Between the front subframe and the body: yes
Behind the lower timing cover as dropped from removing the upper cover: yes
Losing nuts into the bodywork from removing the rear struts: yes

 

[Bigbeanbird]

Between the front subframe and the body: yes
Behind the lower timing cover as dropped from removing the upper cover: yes
Losing nuts into the bodywork from removing the rear struts: yes

Thank God, I thought I might have been cursed by the DSM gods..!!

 

[pauleyman]

Thank you, if they are really noisy I’m not leaving the driveway.. lemme ask you this, are these cars famous for consuming dropped nuts and bolts..??

FYI freshly bled lifter will be a little noisy. Needs oil to fill it up. You will need to drive it or at least hold up a rev for a min or two.