bearing are shot after 50 miles...

[Diamond Star Werks]

Crud packed in the oil galleys of the crank.... from the grind and polish of the crank. would be my "guess" why every bearing has damage.

IMHO.. 25w50 is too thick of an oil for break in, 5w30 or 10w 30 should do you just fine.

I believe I used 5w 20 for my break in or 5w 30 and now run 0w 20. Have almost 10k on it now.

 

[cdm_sd02]

Haven't pulled it yet. dropping off a spare crank and block at the machine shop today to get looked at.planning on ordering a set of Weisco 10.5 pistons today. Might as well upgrade while in there. Whats a bit confusing is my prosport gauge showed 0 psi at hot idle but my stock gauge read alittle over the low mark. Not sure what to make of it. I will be installing a know working oil pump this coming weekend and recheck my oil pressure just to verify my pump wasn't part of the issue.

I have to ask, but what are you using for Oil psi sensors? Two different sensors or you tapped the Ecu for the Prosport. And if your using a second sensor, where do you have it?

Also didnt see a Picture of the thrust bearing, how are the sides of that one?

 

[Diamond Star Werks]

None of you guys who've had this problem have had it with a new crank, correct? All this talk of improper or "dirty" assembly has me worried that after 50 miles on my build I'll be tearing it down again because of bad bearings.....only everything on my bottom end was brand new.

With a new bottom end you should be fine dude. If anything goes wrong it should be under warranty but checking clearences is always good even with a new crank kit. If your at 50 miles with break-in oil still running, change your oil. When you do so cut the old oil filter and see whats in there. Do so again next oil change which I recommend at 500 miles. The filter will show any contamination.

 

[cdm_sd02]

I agree, Please do a filter cut.... when you can. Would love to know what you find.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I am pretty sure that Dave Bucsher runs 20/50 in his cars, along with most of the guys out there running the fastest times in these cars. They must all be ignorant huh.

Comparing a competition built block that was built by Buschur for racing purposes to regular old homemade builds in these cars is kind of silly huh.

Sorry man, couldn't help it. Buschur may run 20w-50 in his engines and that hardly indicates that those guys are all ignorant but it also doesn't indicate that everyone can also run 20w-50.

I mean let's be realistic, engines built to be "out there running the fastest times" are not... I don't even have to say it.
You can't just go toss 20w-50 in any old 4g63 and expect everything to be perfect and I think that is what mrfister11 was trying to get at.

------

I do have a question for you regarding the steel ball in the ends of the crank. What do you do after the fact? Leave them out? Replace with some other part? Weld shut?
Maybe THIS is why mitsu says the crank is not a serviceable item... not the coating, the nightmare after the machine shop.

 

[BogusSVO]

I do have a question for you regarding the steel ball in the ends of the crank. What do you do after the fact? Leave them out? Replace with some other part? Weld shut?
Maybe THIS is why mitsu says the crank is not a serviceable item... not the coating, the nightmare after the machine shop.

The balls that are the plug will NOT be able to be used, for that is certin.

I am thinking tapping and a screw plug to replace the ball.

I picked up a 6 bolt crank last eve to see what I can figure out on the oil galleys.

I will post when I know more.

 

[bryanwheat]

The balls that are the plug will NOT be able to be used, for that is certin.

I am thinking tapping and a screw plug to replace the ball.

I picked up a 6 bolt crank last eve to see what I can figure out on the oil galleys.

I will post when I know more.

That is what i do, drill the hole to the right size, tap it and install a npt plug with some indian head shellac.

 

[daren_p]

On the crank plugs, when I had my bottom built, I wanted to make sure every little detail was covered. I asked the machinest to remove the plugs & to clean the galleys (crank was magnafluxed & polished only). He said this is probably overkill & they typically only do that to race engines (because of extra cost) but said if thats what I want, he'll do it. He welded something to each ball to pull them out & then drilled/tapped & installed plugs (like others have mentioned). After cleaning the crank oil galleys, he did mention they were very dirty. My car had 85K on it, I bought it with 19K & have always run Mobil1 synthetic, changed every 3-3.5K

Also, on the possible low oil pressure, did you install the BS block off bearing correctly? (ie so your blocking oil flow to where the BS use to be)

 

[awdspyder98]

I have to ask, but what are you using for Oil psi sensors? Two different sensors or you tapped the Ecu for the Prosport. And if your using a second sensor, where do you have it?

Also didnt see a Picture of the thrust bearing, how are the sides of that one?

Im using the sensor that came with the gauge. Its hooked to the ofh . I removed one of the hex screws and put in a adapter. The stock gauge is being ran from the stock location with a stock sensor.

I haven't dropped the thrust bearings yet.. But im sure they will show some wear.

Also, on the possible low oil pressure, did you install the BS block off bearing correctly? (ie so your blocking oil flow to where the BS use to be)

Ues the bearings were flipped properly. I had someone else verify it..

 

[95talongirl]

Comparing a competition built block that was built by Buschur for racing purposes to regular old homemade builds in these cars is kind of silly huh.

Sorry man, couldn't help it. Buschur may run 20w-50 in his engines and that hardly indicates that those guys are all ignorant but it also doesn't indicate that everyone can also run 20w-50.

I mean let's be realistic, engines built to be "out there running the fastest times" are not... I don't even have to say it.
You can't just go toss 20w-50 in any old 4g63 and expect everything to be perfect and I think that is what mrfister11 was trying to get at.
.

Excatly. Never said that 20w50 was "bad" by any means, but you should pick an oil based on what your building. Typically the heavier oils are used for racing purposes due to the fact they are beat on pretty hard and run hot. Your average daily drive is a completely different scenario. Also, with the newer cars, (which really doesn't affect the 4g63) is it very important to stick with what's recommended due to things like Active Fuel Management and Variable Valve Timing, which some systems use oil pressure to activate and deactivate.

It just caught me off guard since this is the first time I've read about someone using 20w50 as a break in oil; just seems to be a bit on the thicker side for that specific use.

All the other points brought up in this thread are great things to check, as well. Good luck with your car!

 

[donniekak]

Comparing a competition built block that was built by Buschur for racing purposes to regular old homemade builds in these cars is kind of silly huh.

Sorry man, couldn't help it. Buschur may run 20w-50 in his engines and that hardly indicates that those guys are all ignorant but it also doesn't indicate that everyone can also run 20w-50.

I mean let's be realistic, engines built to be "out there running the fastest times" are not... I don't even have to say it.
You can't just go toss 20w-50 in any old 4g63 and expect everything to be perfect and I think that is what mrfister11 was trying to get at.

------

I do have a question for you regarding the steel ball in the ends of the crank. What do you do after the fact? Leave them out? Replace with some other part? Weld shut?
Maybe THIS is why mitsu says the crank is not a serviceable item... not the coating, the nightmare after the machine shop.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/...Performance Recommendations for Motor Oil.pdf

 

[PieEyedPiper]

The balls that are the plug will NOT be able to be used, for that is certin.

I am thinking tapping and a screw plug to replace the ball.

I picked up a 6 bolt crank last eve to see what I can figure out on the oil galleys.

I will post when I know more.

That is what i do, drill the hole to the right size, tap it and install a npt plug with some indian head shellac.

Nice, that sounds like as good a solution as any. Makes you wonder how many cranks out there have actually had their balls removed. teehee.
How hot does a crank get? I'd never considered it before. The shellac is good to 350F.

Excatly. Never said that 20w50 was "bad" by any means, but you should pick an oil based on what your building. Typically the heavier oils are used for racing purposes due to the fact they are beat on pretty hard and run hot. Your average daily drive is a completely different scenario. Also, with the newer cars, (which really doesn't affect the 4g63) is it very important to stick with what's recommended due to things like Active Fuel Management and Variable Valve Timing, which some systems use oil pressure to activate and deactivate.

It just caught me off guard since this is the first time I've read about someone using 20w50 as a break in oil; just seems to be a bit on the thicker side for that specific use.

All the other points brought up in this thread are great things to check, as well. Good luck with your car!

Don't even worry about it. I agree with your sentiments, as I'm sure many do. It's easy to see a comment as trying to be all encompassing when that wasn't really the intent. In fact, I did the same thing to bryanwheat just yesterday, no joke. We talked it out and have our opinions but ... oh wait, looks like Donnie just did it to me!

That's ok, I like donnie and I'm sure he knows all too well that nothing in that doc says to just dump 20w-50 into an otherwise stock engine that is actually a "race" engine from the factory that is not going to be used for race purposes. Nor does he believe that I'm saying that 20w-50 should never be used.

But here's a good question, the fp article does say their motor has always seen 20w-50. Does that mean break in was also 20w-50? Was this a built motor? - that part was unclear to me. It sure didn't sound like it was OEM.

 

[daren_p]

Excatly. Never said that 20w50 was "bad" by any means, but you should pick an oil based on what your building. Typically the heavier oils are used for racing purposes due to the fact they are beat on pretty hard and run hot. Your average daily drive is a completely different scenario. Also, with the newer cars, (which really doesn't affect the 4g63) is it very important to stick with what's recommended due to things like Active Fuel Management and Variable Valve Timing, which some systems use oil pressure to activate and deactivate.

It just caught me off guard since this is the first time I've read about someone using 20w50 as a break in oil; just seems to be a bit on the thicker side for that specific use.

All the other points brought up in this thread are great things to check, as well. Good luck with your car!

True, but more importantly it also depends on what clearances were used when building your motor.

 

[cdm_sd02]

True, but more importantly it also depends on what clearances were used when building your motor.

Very true, depends on the clearances you're using in the build.
I know people, including myself that use 30 straight up for the break-in period

 

[cdm_sd02]

Im using the sensor that came with the gauge. Its hooked to the ofh . I removed one of the hex screws and put in a adapter. The stock gauge is being ran from the stock location with a stock sensor.

I have seen in a few 6 bolt ofh a difference up to 10psi in the different ports, but i have yet to see that in the 7 bolt ofh.

 

[awdspyder98]

Ok .. little update. I swapped the prosport electric gauge for a manual oil pressure gauge just to see what is happening. At cold start up the manual gauge reads 75psi which is what my electric one said. I let it sit at idle for about 20 minutes free reving it occasionally and my manual gauge reads this...

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Just where I would expect it to be. But my balance shafts are not installed and my OFH is not ported. Makes me think that maybe one of my oil galleys are cracked or something because pressure isnt very high.I have the gauge installed like this...

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But what has me puzzled is my factory dash reads this...

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Maybe my factory sensor is on its way out. Apperantly my oil pump was working properly so it comes down to oil contamination. On the up side I went ahead a dropped off another block with some arp main studs at the machine shop. They are going to line hone the mains.. mill the deck and bore it .20 over for the new weisco 10.5 pistons that Im ordering tomorrow. They explained to me how they check clearences and such. So much math involved that Im glad to let them assemble the bottom end. They will also be cleaning the head once I remove it from the car... which will be done when the shortblock is almost ready.

 

[bastarddsm]

Granted, this is a SBC (small block chevy) with a distributor that was eaten, but it seems that the thicker oil was causing some initial premature wear problems. Newer cars, like ours, with tighter clearances seem to benefit more from a lighter weight oil for break in. From the search, a straight 30 or 40W or a 10w30 or 10W40 were the most popular choices. Just some food for thought and may be worth trying out the next time around. The 20w50 is perfectly fine after this critical period.

No, That guys wear was from the extra force it required to turn the oil pump, due to it being thicker, and creating more oil pressue.

Personally, I run what ever diesel oil is on sale in the winter, and VR1 20-50 in the summer.

 

[BogusSVO]

With the manual oil gauge, have you taken the car for a drive?

Does oil pressure increase with RPM?

15-20 psi at warm idle is not bad, but you should increase appox 10 psi per 1000 rpm

 

[cdm_sd02]

What bearings are you using for this most recent test? Didnt you take all of them out?

 

[awdspyder98]

No, That guys wear was from the extra force it required to turn the oil pump, due to it being thicker, and creating more oil pressue.

this test is done with orielys 5-30w oil.

With the manual oil gauge, have you taken the car for a drive?

Does oil pressure increase with RPM?

15-20 psi at warm idle is not bad, but you should increase appox 10 psi per 1000 rpm

No I have not taken it for a drive... and yes the oil pressure does go up with rpms. The idle is set for 1000rpms at the moment.

What bearings are you using for this most recent test? Didnt you take all of them out?

Yes I did remove the old bearings and replaced them with some new king bearings I had laying around. They are also .25 so the fit was exact. Im not looking for this motor to last... but just wanted to see if my oil pressure did have a part in the motor getting trashed.

 

[cdm_sd02]

Yes I did remove the old bearings and replaced them with some new king bearings I had laying around. They are also .25 so the fit was exact. Im not looking for this motor to last... but just wanted to see if my oil pressure did have a part in the motor getting trashed.

.25 is a 1/4" even .025 is huge....
Most of the time oil gap is only .001
My point is if the gap is to big on rods and mains, you'll never see good oil pressure.

 

[awdspyder98]

.25 is a 1/4" even .025 is huge....
Most of the time oil gap is only .001
My point is if the gap is to big on rods and mains, you'll never see good oil pressure.

Sorry.. Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly.. The crank has been cut .10 under so thats where the oversize bearings come in.

 

[cdm_sd02]

Sorry.. Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly.. The crank has been cut .10 under so thats where the oversize bearings come in.

They had to cut the Crank that much??? That's all most an 1/8" which is close to a total of .25 over all.... ouch
You sure you're hearing them right, that's a little over kill IMo... Esp. for a 7 bolt.
Sure it's not .010 - .025??? that makes more sense

- So anyways, what kind of oil gap you running? They tell what bearings to get for the new size?

 

[awdspyder98]

They had to cut the Crank that much??? That's all most an 1/8" which is close to a total of .25 over all.... ouch
You sure you're hearing them right, that's a little over kill IMo... Esp. for a 7 bolt.
Sure it's not .010 - .025??? that makes more sense

- So anyways, what kind of oil gap you running? They tell what bearings to get for the new size?

sorry.. I meant to say .010 on the cut crank. When I called to order from extreempsi I had informed them the crank was cut .010 under so they informed me I needed there .25 bearings.. which is for a .010 cut.. there next size up was the .50 which was for the .020 cut. I did verify all the bearings were .010 because of the stamp on them. I did try to wiggle the crank and rods to see if they moved... which they didnt . The assembly does move smoothly while turning.

 

[cdm_sd02]

Just where I would expect it to be. But my balance shafts are not installed and my OFH is not ported. Makes me think that maybe one of my oil galleys are cracked or something because pressure isnt very high.I have the gauge installed like this...

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So your running the stock oil pressure switch on the front of the OFH? or you have the idiot oil switch?
Can't really see it from the pic, is it a big round sensor about 1-3/4 in dia?
or small about 1" in dia?