76HTA Dyno - 93 vs. WW Fluid vs. Meth!

[Enraged78]

I've been digging around trying to find someone, anyone who has dyno'd the FP 76HTA turbo, and have found just about nothing. I hope this helps some people out and provides more information on this amazing piece of hardware from FP. I've run small, medium, and medium/large frame turbos before, and this thing hands down beats them all. I run this car mostly on the street, and occasionally on the track. Spool is amazing, within 500 RPM of my old Evo III 16G setup, and it pulls hard to redline. My mods are in my profile if you want to know more about the setup. I don't expect this to be a dyno killer, but it's as far as I want to go to maintain what I consider to be daily driver friendly.

I was also interested to find out how 93 octane, 93 octane with 'Smurf Piss' (Splash -20 Windshield Washer Fluid), and 93 octane with a 60/40 mix of M100 Methanol (60%) and Distilled Water (40%) would perform.

My methanol setup is from the now defunct enginerunup.com. I have an upgraded 250 PSI pump, two injectors (M5, and M3), Snow Performance injector solenoid, and Coolingmist pressure switch set at 7PSI.

The dyno was performed by Forced Induction Motorsports in South Windsor CT. Turbo Bob is a genius with these things, and is constantly prodding me how I could make a hell of a lot more power on this setup if I switched to e-85. His website can be found here:

Forced Induction Motorsports - Home

Here are the results:

93 Octane @ 22 PSI: 350.94 HP
93 Octane with -20 WW Fluid @ 24 PSI: 353.90 HP
93 Octane with 60/40 Methanol @ 25.5 PSI: 393.73 HP

If you notice when all three graphs are lined up, you're going to find the following:
93 Octane straight runs great with this turbo.
93 Octane with WW fluid produced less power as the water is over-injected during spool, but then produces a lot more power under the curve, even if it doesn't make a whole lot more horespower. This was my daily driver setup for a while.
93 Octane with 60/40 meth absolutely kills everything else, in every way.

Air/Fuel ratios for both Meth setups were set to 12.5 dropping to 11.5 from 4000-7000 RPM. This was to compensate for the fact that my meth is an 'always on' setup, and would push less Meth per rev as RPM increases. We found this also made some good power. Air/Fuel for 93 Pump was set to 11.5 across the board.

The car made even more power on the street. Airflow at 93 pump was in the 42 lb min range @ 22PSI. Pump and WW Fluid netted about 44 @ 24 PSI. Pump and 60/40 meth netted about 45.2 @ 25.5. On the street, immediately after the dyno session, the car laid down 47.4 lb/min with no changes @ 25.5. It's very clear that the car is making well over 400HP to the wheels on the street.

I have logged all the pulls (over 32, including the street pulls), and have my wideband hooked into link. If anyone wants to see any logs, or anything else, please let me know.

Before anyone chimes in that I could make more power with bigger cams, intake manifold, or E-85/C16, I am fully aware. The goal of this car is to be a street/strip car, not a strip car only. I also like the decent low-end torque that the setup produces currently. The nearest E-85 station is 45 minutes away.

Thanks to FP for a killer turbo, and Turbo Bob for a great dyno session!

Matt

 

[OutKastGSX]

So if i am correct. the green xl is only capable of 350hp on pump. if this is true that's kind of a bummer. i was wanting to get 400ish on this turbo on pump.

 

[Enraged78]

So if i am correct. the green xl is only capable of 350hp on pump. if this is true that's kind of a bummer. i was wanting to get 400ish on this turbo on pump.

Not necessarily. If you have some 272 or 280 cams, speed density, and a decent intake manifold, there is a lot more power you could get out of pump. A 2.4 stroker with this turbo would be insane on pump. If I had to do it all over again, I would go with a 2.4. One of the things I want people to realize is that with a good meth system and a near stock setup, 400WHP is more than possible.

- Matt

 

[boost97gst]

Just curious but why would SD mean any more or less horsepower? Assuming you have a 2g maf, that is.

 

[OutKastGSX]

Good to know. i was wondering myself how much 272 cams would make a difference. i was just curious. Im planning on buying this turbo soon and hitting a high 11 sec pass on it. just wanted to know if i was getting the right turbo.

 

[Enraged78]

Just curious but why would SD mean any more or less horsepower? Assuming you have a 2g maf, that is.

The 2G MAF becomes unreliable above ~47 lb/min, and can't read above 50 lb/min. Sometimes it's a bit higher, sometimes lower. 2600 HZ is the hard limit according to Tom Dorris. Speed density allows for much more accurate airflow readings at those levels and above. The MAF itself can also be a restriction. I have a 2G MAF for reference.

Matt

Good to know. i was wondering myself how much 272 cams would make a difference. i was just curious. Im planning on buying this turbo soon and hitting a high 11 sec pass on it. just wanted to know if i was getting the right turbo.

OutKast,

I've run the following turbo's on this car:
T25, 14b, Evo III 16g, Turbochargers.com 16g, and the PTE 5557 HTA.

This turbo drastically exceeds them all. I made a little more power with the 5557 on pump, but this turbo spools much faster and carries boost past 7,000 RPM, which the 5557 did not. If you really want to hit the 11's on a near stock setup, Meth (not ww fluid!), E-85, or C-16 will get you there. I consider a near stock setup to be basic supporting mods like intake, exhaust, fuel, clutch, and enough intercooler to support what your goals are.

Matt

 

[AK Maniak]

Awesome I can't wait to finally bolt my 76HTA up! Do you have any graphs with RPM instead of speed? I'll be running mine with stock intake manifold, HKS 272'S, and an FP exhaust manifold. I am really hoping for 350 to the wheels on 90oct as that is all we have up here.

 

[Enraged78]

Awesome I can't wait to finally bolt my 76HTA up! Do you have any graphs with RPM instead of speed? I'll be running mine with stock intake manifold, HKS 272'S, and an FP exhaust manifold. I am really hoping for 350 to the wheels on 90oct as that is all we have up here.

Unfortunately, no. Bob's RPM pickup didn't like the triple shielded wires I used to extend my 2G coil pack into a 1G intake manifold, so we did without. All runs were in 3rd gear, so it should be pretty easy to figure out what's what. Good luck with your 76HTA!

 

[AK Maniak]

Unfortunately, no. Bob's RPM pickup didn't like the triple shielded wires I used to extend my 2G coil pack into a 1G intake manifold, so we did without. All runs were in 3rd gear, so it should be pretty easy to figure out what's what. Good luck with your 76HTA!

Its been a while since I've actually driven mine haha. On 93 I'm guessing it started boosting about 4000 and reached full spool by 4500; does that sound about right or am I way off?

 

[Enraged78]

Its been a while since I've actually driven mine haha. On 93 I'm guessing it started boosting about 4000 and reached full spool by 4500; does that sound about right or am I way off?

Close. The 76 starts to spool EARLY. Like in the mid 2's early. It's a very streetable turbo. It reaches peak boost by 4,000, and holds it to wherever you let off. I've had it as high as 8,200 RPM, but it doesn't make much power up there due to my cams and intake manifold. In 5th gear, it will hit 25 PSI by as early as 3,600 RPM.

 

[Michael@FP]

Good jorb.

Can you send me a high quality picture of the dyno sheets? [email protected]

Thanks.

-Michael

 

[Enraged78]

Good jorb.

Can you send me a high quality picture of the dyno sheets? [email protected]

Thanks.

-Michael

Mike,

It would be my pleasure. Thanks for all your help during the build!

Matt

 

[Pipnorcali]

Nice numbers

 

[e85_4g63]

So at 22psi it made 350whp. At 25.5psi (with water/meth) it did 393. First off congrats on the good numbers. How much did the car make at 22psi on water/meth. I'm asking because 3.5psi MORE boost has to account for some of the power. 350whp on straight 93, what's not to like!

 

[Michael@FP]

So at 22psi it made 350whp. At 25.5psi (with water/meth) it did 393. First off congrats on the good numbers. How much did the car make at 22psi on water/meth. I'm asking because 3.5psi MORE boost has to account for some of the power. 350whp on straight 93, what's not to like!

The water/meth allowed him to run the additional boost without knocking so yes the increase in air flow that the extra 3.5PSI netted him was responsible for the raise power.

-Michael

 

[Enraged78]

The water/meth allowed him to run the additional boost without knocking so yes the increase in air flow that the extra 3.5PSI netted him was responsible for the raise power.

-Michael

Mike is dead on. I couldn't go more than 22PSI at 10 degrees of timing advance on pump, and 42 lb/min of air. It was the same on the street. The 60/40 meth got me 45.x lb/min on the dyno with 13 degrees advance, and 47.x lb/min on the street with the same advance. AFR on pump was 11.5 across the board, and on meth, I could lean it out to 12.5 the lower RPM range for an additional increase in torque. Knock is limiting factor here. In a straight line with the clutch out, the car will smoke all four tires in first gear if you get on it fast enough. I can't do that on pump gas.

Matt

First off congrats on the good numbers. 350whp on straight 93, what's not to like!

Nice numbers

Thanks!

 

[e85_4g63]

The water/meth allowed him to run the additional boost without knocking so yes the increase in air flow that the extra 3.5PSI netted him was responsible for the raise power.

-Michael

Michael, I wasn't sure if the cooler, denser air from the methanol made additional power on it's own, or if it was from the extra boost alone. Sorry my question was asked in a confusing manor.

Basically I'm trying to ask if the car made (or would have made) more then 350whp at 22psi with the water/meth. I'm trying to see how much power was made from boost alone and from the water/meth alone. Hopefully I'm not confusing anyone,

 

[Enraged78]

Michael, I wasn't sure if the cooler, denser air from the methanol made additional power on it's own, or if it was from the extra boost alone. Sorry my question was asked in a confusing manor.

Basically I'm trying to ask if the car made (or would have made) more then 350whp at 22psi with the water/meth. I'm trying to see how much power was made from boost alone and from the water/meth alone. Hopefully I'm not confusing anyone,

No worries. One incurs the other. If I run more timing than the car will allow, I get knock. If I run more boost, I get knock. If I ran 25.5 PSI on pump gas, I would have had to drop the timing by 4 degrees, would have still made 350~ wheel, and my EGT's would be much higher. It's not all about boost. It's about balancing boost and timing with a proper air fuel ratio. The car tells you how far it can go by your knock. No knock = you're good. Knock = back something off. If I run a fuel with a higher octane rating, I can get more boost, and more timing, hence the 13 degrees of advance vs. 10, and 25.5 PSI as opposed to 22.

Now, if I changed NOTHING on the pump gas tune, left it at 11.5 and 10 degrees advance with 22 PSI, and just added the meth, would it make more power? Maybe just a little. The Meth on top of a pump gas tune without pulling fuel might make it make a little, or the overly rich mixture might make it lose power. We tried the same thing when I drained the washer fluid and put in the 60/40 mix. We left the tune exactly as it was with the washer fluid, and re-dyno'd the car. It made 367HP on that pull, compared to just 354. The extra boost, and a slight change in the AFR and timing maps are what got us to 394. The windshield washer tune was within .1 on the AFR between the two mixes, so I didn't have to change it.

Matt

 

[boost97gst]

Thanks Enraged, Im well beyond the limits of the 2gmaf somehow. Guess im lucky . I need to switch, im seeing 3100hz at times and airflow much higher than 47lbs. I thought 2gmafs were much more capable. SD here i come. Thanks again for clarifying.

 

[Enraged78]

Thanks Enraged, Im well beyond the limits of the 2gmaf somehow. Guess im lucky . I need to switch, im seeing 3100hz at times and airflow much higher than 47lbs. I thought 2gmafs were much more capable. SD here i come. Thanks again for clarifying.

My pleasure. You are flowing a shit-ton of air through the 2G if you're at 3100hz. This thread has more info:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/436243-outflowing-2g-maf-need-help.html

JusMX was involved with that thread, so you know the info is good.

Speed density or an EVO MAF sounds like it would work great for you.

 

[AK Maniak]

Good jorb.

Can you send me a high quality picture of the dyno sheets? [email protected]

Thanks.

-Michael

You mentioned a couple of months ago that you would have some dyno numbers for the 76HTA soon; just curious and looking for other numbers to compare with these. The more I read about this turbo the more excited I get to actually use mine!

 

[e85_4g63]

Now, if I changed NOTHING on the pump gas tune, left it at 11.5 and 10 degrees advance with 22 PSI, and just added the meth, would it make more power? Maybe just a little. Matt

Answers my question, thanks Matt

 

[silvreclips]

Good info, glad someone finally did the washer fluid vs meth/water mix.

 

[dsmvenge]

Been awaiting this to see if I was buying one I want a 2.3 stroker what do you think that would do or should i do a 4g64

 

[rx7ttlm]

You should be able to get closer to 400 hp on pump. I think I ran ~427 with 2.3 built to shit with ported 2g head, fp3 cams SMIM etc. (assuming we are talking about the same turbo (dsm 76 aka 3076 hta ball bearing turbo). Edit- see profile for components list.