2G 4g63 mechanical timing off?

[ttravis88t]

Is my timing off here? This socket is exactly at the top of its rotation so this is the top of the piston stroke for the cylinder all the way on the right closest to the cam gears. But as you can see the lines don’t match up. The car ran fine before this I was just checking up on it before I begin tuning. Maybe I’m wrong and this isn’t cylinder #1?

If it was off this much it for sure wouldn’t have ran so idk

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

That's cylinder #1, what do the bottom timing marks look like? They will run when it is off 1 tooth (not great but will run). I had a car that had that problem before I did it's timing belt, it was off by only 1 tooth though.

 

[ttravis88t]

That's cylinder #1, what do the bottom timing marks look like? They will run when it is off 1 tooth (not great but will run). I had a car that had that problem before I did it's timing belt, it was off by only 1 tooth though.

The mark on the harmonic balancer doesn’t even come close to lining up no matter how I try and do it.

The car timing marks aren’t off like one tooth it appears to be off like 5 or 6. But there’s no possible way. Maybe the guy before me put it on all wack and it didn’t visually line up. I’m not sure but the car runs fine it’s just weird they don’t line up.

In this picture this is where the oil pump arrow points at where it’s supposed to for TDC and this is where the cam gears are. But the balancer doesn’t line up with the marks on the timing belt cover. At the same time as this.

The socket I have in cylinder #1 isn’t at its highest point it’s like a inch or two off. Is this how it’s supposed to be?

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Edit: i have a balance shaft delete so I’m not sure if this mod affects the placement of anything

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

With the Balance Shaft Deleted, the OIL PUMP arrow can point anywhere, since it is no longer phasing a balance shaft. It is possible that the harmonic balancer has moved and has you confused. Our balancers have a tendency to separate at the rubber and move so look it over VERY CLOSELY, it may be time for a new one.
Can you see the crankshaft timing mark? Where is it when the cams are aligned like in your last picture?

 

[pauleyman]

Is my timing off here? This socket is exactly at the top of its rotation so this is the top of the piston stroke for the cylinder all the way on the right closest to the cam gears. But as you can see the lines don’t match up. The car ran fine before this I was just checking up on it before I begin tuning. Maybe I’m wrong and this isn’t cylinder #1?

If it was off this much it for sure wouldn’t have ran so idk

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Forget the harmonic balancer. You have to remove the covers and use the marks under the cover.

 

[ttravis88t]

With the Balance Shaft Deleted, the OIL PUMP arrow can point anywhere, since it is no longer phasing a balance shaft. It is possible that the harmonic balancer has moved and has you confused. Our balancers have a tendency to separate at the rubber and move so look it over VERY CLOSELY, it may be time for a new one.
Can you see the crankshaft timing mark? Where is it when the cams are aligned like in your last picture?

So this is where the little indent on the crank is when the cams are lined up with the little line and dot on them pointed to the sky

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

A 4g63 takes 6 full turns to get all of the timing marks back in alignment. The cams should line up just like your picture when they are both aligned with each other (exhaust at 3 oclock and intake at 9 oclock). Something is not right but it runs fine. You may need to turn the motor over one or more turns to get them all to line up (or as close as you can get them).

 

[ttravis88t]

A 4g63 takes 6 full turns to get all of the timing marks back in alignment. The cams should line up just like your picture when they are both aligned with each other (exhaust at 3 oclock and intake at 9 oclock). Something is not right but it runs fine. You may need to turn the motor over one or more turns to get them all to line up (or as close as you can get them).

Ah that makes sense. I didn’t know it was 6 turns thought it was 2. What’s weird is it all lines up but the little indents on the harmonic balancer STILL don’t wanna line up to BTDC lines on the timing cover. Is it even supposed to? To make this sound a little easier to understand: is the Mechanic timing of TDC and the BTDC supposed to all line up

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[Mello]

Why are you using the harmonic balancer during the timing belt mechanical timing job?

Anyway, your harmonic balancer could be separating if it's old.

 

[ttravis88t]

Why are you using the harmonic balancer during the timing belt mechanical timing job?

I’m not. What I’m asking is are the indents on the blancer that line up with base timing supposed to be lined up at the same time that the mechanical timing is at TDC.

 

[Mello]

No profile for your car. I assume it's the car in your thumbnail.
Harmonic balancer is removed while doing the TB & should be sitting on the ground somewhere.
FSM shows the mechanical timing lines up like this-

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If you've deleted the balance shafts the oil pump timing will not matter.

 

[ttravis88t]

No profile for your car. I assume it's the car in your thumbnail.
Harmonic balancer is removed while doing the TB & should be sitting on the ground somewhere.
FSM shows the mechanical timing lines up like this-

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If you've deleted the balance shafts the oil pump timing will not matter.

I understand this. My mechanical timing is fine from what I can tell now that I was told you have to do 6 rotations to get it to line up. Now my follow up question is that while the car is set mechanically to TDC. Are the lines for BTDC also supposed to line up with the marks on the balancer….

Here’s a video showing what I mean. As you can see, the lines for BTDC are now lined up with the notches on the balancer but the engine is no longer at TDC. I thought the TDC and BTDC were supposed to match up

 

[randman2011]

The crank flange has an alignment dowel that is supposed to keep the harmonic balancer in the proper orientation. Often that dowel is removed or missing, so the harmonic balancer could be oriented in four ways, only one of which is "correct." The only difference being the alignment with the timing cover marks. Yes, if the harmonic balancer is installed according to that dowel pin, the mark on it will align with the mark on the timing cover, within tolerance. Those plastic covers warp/move around a lot as they age.

But as several other people have already mentioned, a separating harmonic balancer can cause the marks to not line up (among other, much worse things) but IF the balancer is healthy AND it is installed in the correct orientation, timing marks will line up.

 

[ttravis88t]

The crank flange has an alignment dowel that is supposed to keep the harmonic balancer in the proper orientation. Often that dowel is removed or missing, so the harmonic balancer could be oriented in four ways, only one of which is "correct." The only difference being the alignment with the timing cover marks. Yes, if the harmonic balancer is installed according to that dowel pin, the mark on it will align with the mark on the timing cover, within tolerance. Those plastic covers warp/move around a lot as they age.

But as several other people have already mentioned, a separating harmonic balancer can cause the marks to not line up (among other, much worse things) but IF the balancer is healthy AND it is installed in the correct orientation, timing marks will line up.

I see, are you referring to this dowel? (Picture below) also, I now have the car all back together is it still possible to test base timing if this doesn’t line up? Or do I have to go switch it all around until balancer notches like up with the dowel on the crank?

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[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I "think" there is some confusion here. TDC is top dead center. BTDC is Before Top Dead Center.

The dowel on the crank has nothing to do with the mechanical timing. It orients the balancer.

The CRANK timing mark is the NOTCH in the timing plate BEHIND the balancer. It is what needs to be in alignment with the tab for mechanical timing, not the dowel, just to clarify things.

 

[ttravis88t]

I "think" there is some confusion here. TDC is top dead center.
BTDC is Before Top Dead Center
The dowel on the crsnk has nothing to do with the mechanical timing. It orients the balancer. The CRANK timing mark is the NOTCH in the timing plate BEHIND the balancer. It is what needs to be in alignment with the tab for mechanical timing, not the dowel, just to clarify things.

Yes I understand the part of how to line up the crank. I was just asking to verify that the dowel on the crank itself is for the alignment of JUST the balance and nothing else, so that way it’ll match up to the BTDC marks, and my mistake but isn’t the BTDC for setting base time?

 

[randman2011]

Yes, that's the one. When I'm reassembling everything I get the crank lined up with its internal timing mark so when I get the cover back on I know to orient the harmonic balancer in the direction that aligns with the timing marks, since my EVO crank didn't come with the dowel. I don't think there's a way to use a timing light without pulling the belts back off and turning the harmonic balancer to the right orientation.

Fluidampr has two timing marks 180 degrees apart so there are two "correct" orientations but I assume you're on the stock damper.

EDIT: the damper can only be off by 90 degrees in either direction or 180 degrees. "2-3 inches" doesn't mean anything to me, but I just wanted to throw that out there before you start taking things apart again.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I am at work or I would snap a picture of a balancer, its timing mark and its relation to the crank keyway so you could try and determine if your balancer has slipped.

 

[jesse12345]

Dowell pin in the little hole on the crank pulley.

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[ttravis88t]

Yes, that's the one. When I'm reassembling everything I get the crank lined up with its internal timing mark so when I get the cover back on I know to orient the harmonic balancer in the direction that aligns with the timing marks, since my EVO crank didn't come with the dowel. I don't think there's a way to use a timing light without pulling the belts back off and turning the harmonic balancer to the right orientation.

Fluidampr has two timing marks 180 degrees apart so there are two "correct" orientations but I assume you're on the stock damper.

EDIT: the damper can only be off by 90 degrees in either direction or 180 degrees. "2-3 inches" doesn't mean anything to me, but I just wanted to throw that out there before you start taking things apart again.

Yes that’s a better way to say it 90deg off. But the way it is it seems that even if I rotated it another 90deg it still wouldn’t be aligned. Not sure I’ll dig back into it tmmrw

 

[pauleyman]

If you have no balance shafts you are correct. Crank and cams line up every two turns of the crank. The other marks no longer matter. If you have shafts the only time all 5 line up is every 6 turns.
You need to line up crank. Everything else is relative to the crank. If crank is on the mark and cams aren't then you are NOT in time.

Your photos are so zoomed in its hard to tell what's what. For sure there is a shot and crank is not in time. I see too many people set cams lined up then go check crank. Yes you can do this but in reality everything follows crank. Sometimes it easier to move crank a few teeth while cams are set. Whatever method you choose the end result is the same. Very objective if marks line up or not.

 

[Mello]

If your balancer is off because the alignment pin is missing (looks sheared off) just set the rotation to the different degrees & put some reference marks on the balancer with a paint pen or something.

 

[motomattx]

Its also possible for your crankshaft trigger plate to be flipped over and reinstalled, not that I'm saying that it would be your whole problem but it might explain the issue down below with the plate not appearing to line up, I cant tell from the pictures whether it does or not but it looks like it might not, what kind of cam/crank sensor setup are you running? 1g cas? factory 97-99?

 

[ttravis88t]

Its also possible for your crankshaft trigger plate to be flipped over and reinstalled, not that I'm saying that it would be your whole problem but it might explain the issue down below with the plate not appearing to line up, I cant tell from the pictures whether it does or not but it looks like it might not, what kind of cam/crank sensor setup are you running? 1g cas? factory 97-99?

Factory 97-99

Ok, got the whole timing cover off, took a quick video. Can’t tell if this is out of time or not I’m not sure what it’s supposed to be lining up to. Looks like it maybe skipped a tooth if the little indent in the back is supposed to line up with the “v” cut out in the metal plate behind the crank? If it’s out of time I find that crazy, the car ran fine, it has a few hiccups currently because the tune isn’t great but it shows zero symptoms of a jumped tooth. I was only even checking mechanical timing in the first place so that I could verify the car had no issues before getting help tuning my car

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[motomattx]

Look like it might be several teeth off actually.