300 to 400 horsepower mark

[Eclipseturbo4]

hey everybody i have a 96 talon n/a.. right now i have a cheap cold air intake on it with a 75 shot of nitrous.. with that im pushing about give or take 215 horse on the bottle off its probably close to stock and idk what the torque would be.. the motors in really good running condition and nothen wrong with it at all.. im wanting to be at the 3 to 400 mark for power and maybe 2 somthen for torque.. anything that i could do to pull it to that mark?? what parts would get me the best power gains..

 

[SPYDERGSTTUNER]

Gsx's are rare to find, but a high hp 420a is even worse,seriously those are very expensive to mod for high hp,weak internals and only a decent amount of aftermarket support make it worse. My buddy in his 98 Neon Rt has spent over $7 g's on his and just barely hit 230 hp before spinning a rod and giving up on it. I'd say that money spent on building your motor,fuel,trans,suspension,and a bunch of miscelanous stuff save it use the 420 for a dd and buy a turbo dsm .

 

[Archer Fabrications]

That still requires a ton of fabrication to the subframe, steering rack mounts, sway bar mounts, lower firewall and much more. Plus for the price of a Evo engine and transmission you can literally buy a running 2g awd. By the way the evo 4 and up have the engine on the passenger side like the 420a.

doesnt matter if the head is fliped around so the cams are on the passenger side.. you still need massive fabrication... to fit the motor in the corect mounting spots.. or for custom mounts.. and we are on engine swaps now because its way more cost effictive to swap then to dump thousands of dollars into an engine that wont make more then 250hp under 3 grand... or like everyone else is sayin, get a gst or gsx or tsi, or if your really set on turboing a N/A car... get a N/T 4g63, at least you will have more to work with...

not saying it cant be done, just impractical...

also, +1 on what spydergsttuner said.

 

[jcmotorsports]

As far as internals go, building a 420a is way less than a 4g63. My brother in law has a GSX and to build the internals on his he needs to sell his first born child. (slight exageration) haha. Ive been finding internal parts for the 420a for way cheaper. And none of that ebay crap either. Ive done some research and the 420a is a very strong motor. If it came factory with a turbo it would absolutely dog a 4g63 stock for stock. But the internals are "weak" for turbo applications because its not meant to have one. With the right amount of money, patients, and cigarettes, the possibilities are endless on the 420a. You just dont hear about them because nobody wants to do them.

 

[SPYDERGSTTUNER]

With the right amount of money, patients, and cigarettes, the possibilities are endless on the 420a. You just dont hear about them because nobody wants to do them.

Umm and why do u think that is ???

 

[Archer Fabrications]

pistons and rods are like 800 bucks for something thats gonna hold you up to 750whp....... thats a pretty good trade off... what like $1 per horse power? sounds like a fair trade to me.. of course, all depends on the turbo you run. you should stick a 42R on that 420A and watch the fireworks

 

[chanley talon]

I think you should buy another 420A. Build it on the side while you drive your car. Get this motor slowly built in time. Whatever it takes. Forged internals,Head work turbo. I think you can use a neon tranny as they are stronger and have upgrades. You will need fuel upgrades and some kind of fuel managment. You maybe able to get away with safc not real sure there. Then over the winter swap it all out or early spring.

No flamming here. But you could buy a 1g pretty cheap and have the awd. But maybe thats not your dream here. It would be cheaper in the long run though and less wrenches to turn.

You could set a goal of 225 whp that would deffintley make a difference if you lighten your car as much as possible.

 

[compression]

So you can take your $3500 and get a tired 4g63 car in worse shape than yours with 150k+ miles that will need maintenance $$$... Or you can spend that money and have a new forged engine ready to go another 100k+, new clutch, as well as new parts that wont need maintenance for a long time.

Or he could sell his for 3500, but a 1g gsx for around 2,500 ish, that would still leave him with $4,500.00 i am certain that would be a better all around decision.
i am not knocking the 420a at all, its great. but for the cost vs his goals. he could easily achieve them cheaper with a 1g dsm.

The OP asked a question and for the most part he was told to buy another car.

It is very good advice. It isnt even rude, he wanted to get 3-400 horsepower. with what is available the ideal platform is oh so obviously the 1g awd dsm, is that even worth an arguement?

With the money and time spent making the 420a hit 400 whp , your 1g awd dsm could probably be around 600whp+ running 10's.

 

[91stocker]

Or he could sell his for 3500, but a 1g gsx for around 2,500 ish, that would still leave him with $4,500.00 i am certain that would be a better all around decision.
i am not knocking the 420a at all, its great. but for the cost vs his goals. he could easily achieve them cheaper with a 1g dsm.

Exactly. Hell i bought the car in my av for $800, there are deals out there. 2k in mods on a 1g would pretty much put it out of range of any turbo n/t.

If you are stuck on the 420a buy a base model neon. Its about 800lbs lighter then 2g and can easily become a sub 2000lb car. That would be a fun little car.

 

[Boostinsideways]

So you can take your $3500 and get a tired 4g63 car in worse shape than yours with 150k+ miles that will need maintenance $$$... Or you can spend that money and have a new forged engine ready to go another 100k+, new clutch, as well as new parts that wont need maintenance for a long time.

Do all that and still be limited to FWD, less aftermarket support, and fewer tuning solutions.

With the money and time spent making the 420a hit 400 whp , your 1g awd dsm could probably be around 600whp+ running 10's.

This, and if the car he has is his only car, then building for 400 whp would require getting an entire drivetrain to build. He would need a built transmission with an LSD to make anything beyond about 250 whp useable in any way beyond spinning through 1st and 2nd. My car is running the widest tires that easily fit under a 2g, and it is still spinning in 1st, and breaking them loose in 2nd. If I am coming out a turn on full boost in 2nd... forget traction its not there.

Its not a 420a vs 4g63 war in my opinion. The aftermarket support for the 420a isn't there, the tuning options aren't there, and there just isn't any way for a FWD car to use more than about 250 whp in any real life situation. Yeah, at the strip with drag slicks you can make that extra whp actually do something, but your not going to be able to use it on the street.

 

[caseyrock]

If op can settle for 275 HP, he can rebuilt the 420a to stock but get better piston rings (or for $300 get the sealed performance pistons /reconditioned rod kit on dsmgrqveyard for cheap) and run 12-15 psi on a completely stock rebuilt motor. 420a rods will hold around 300hp properly tuned, but when boosted with factory rings they will blow (N/A rings have more clearance between it and the cylinder wall), so with upgraded rings you can squeeze a decent amount of power out of it. This is taken from neon.org. When you build a 420a for boost you have three main options; go stock with better rings, go 2.4l with srt4 internals, or go 420a forged internals. The first option is the cheapest and will hold the least amount of power, the second option is a little cheaper than the third, and will hold around 200 less HP.

Stick with your 2gnt.

Yes, if I really HAD to have a 4g63 motor in whatever car I drove, I would have not been cheap, I would have gotten an EVO. Less awd, a 420a is pretty much capable of whatever a 4g63 motor is capable of. When doing mega HP builds 500-600+, the price to do each motor will be very similar. Both will require forged engine rebuilds, completely new turbo systems, supporting mods, and tuning. MegaSquirt is some of the best tuning software/hardware that money can buy, plenty of companies make 420a cams (CROWER makes awesome ones), and parts cost around the same for both motors. There is a lot of aftermarket support for this engine AND for the 2.4l swap for the 2gnt, you just have to know where to look.


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[bryanwheat]

The problem with the 420a is not the rings. Do you have any what you are talking about. You said the clearance between the ring and the cylinder. Have you ever taken an engine apart before?

 

[Archer Fabrications]

a 420a is pretty much capable of whatever a 4g63 motor is capable of. When doing mega HP builds 500-600+, the price to do each motor will be very similar.


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wrong..... very wrong..... let me know what $6500 in parts does for a 420a vs a 4g63..... then get back to us..

i should know, built 6 bolt dropping in next weekend... shooting for 600awhp with a pte6152s BB

 

[compression]

If op can settle for 275 HP, he can rebuilt the 420a to stock but get better piston rings (or for $300 get the sealed performance pistons /reconditioned rod kit on dsmgrqveyard for cheap) and run 12-15 psi on a completely stock rebuilt motor. 420a rods will hold around 300hp properly tuned, but when boosted with factory rings they will blow (N/A rings have more clearance between it and the cylinder wall)

so what happens when , one day it runs a tad lean, or a little too much timing? this is his only car. and even what you are suggesting requires an engine rebuild. for the 3500$ that somebody mentioned, he could have his 420a AND an 1g dsm with a few mods, or a fresh stock rebuild. i bought mine for 1,400.00

We know it can be done, but for his daily driver we also all know that it shouldn't be done.

With the 1400.00 , i added a maft 200, evo 3 16g 600, and 650cc's 290 ish
that's what 2490? the car went went consistent 12's with a stock pump and smic. If he had that , i would bet money that the 420a wouldn't get much attention.

If you had 3,500 to spend in my opinion the smartest thing to do would be, to buy a used 1g dsm and make that your project/gofast car. And keep your 420a for what it was designed for.

And it doesn't really matter, this is just a pissing war. the 420a guys are going to say stick with a 420a , the 4g63 guys are going to say go 4g63.

Just don't pretend that attempting to make your daily driving 420a a 400whp car is a smarter decision then purchasing a 4g63 (1g for cost efficiency).

 

[chasedardis]

So coming from a person who is currently in tuning process of my boosted 420a and my 6 bolt gst both 2g ill tell you this 4g63 has an easy aftermarket to work with and probably the most known stock turbo motor ever built. The 420a has way less selection which also effects if you want to buy some used parts. The blocks are almost identical (took me a couple seconds one day to find the chrystler emblem ha) minus balance shafts. The big thing is the internals just looking at a stock 420a rods makes you question any power on it. There both fun to drive to say but I have nearly the same amount of money in both gst by about 400 (tires) but about 100 more hp in the gst and I have Evo calipers used koni susp. So if you want to keep the 420a do it with forged internals max out a used 14b and get friendly with a welder and save some money ( making your own exhaust). My profile is not updated yet so contact me if you have any questions or parts. REPLACE VALVE STEMS SEALS FIRST

 

[bryanwheat]

So coming from a person who is currently in tuning process of my boosted 420a and my 6 bolt gst both 2g ill tell you this 4g63 has an easy aftermarket to work with and probably the most known stock turbo motor ever built. The 420a has way less selection which also effects if you want to buy some used parts. The blocks are almost identical (took me a couple seconds one day to find the chrystler emblem ha) minus balance shafts. The big thing is the internals just looking at a stock 420a rods makes you question any power on it. There both fun to drive to say but I have nearly the same amount of money in both gst by about 400 (tires) but about 100 more hp in the gst and I have Evo calipers used koni susp. So if you want to keep the 420a do it with forged internals max out a used 14b and get friendly with a welder and save some money ( making your own exhaust). My profile is not updated yet so contact me if you have any questions or parts. REPLACE VALVE STEMS SEALS FIRST

A 420a block is no where close to identical to a 4h63, they are both 4 cylinders, that is about it.

 

[RadDsm]

When doing mega HP builds 500-600+, the price to do each motor will be very similar. Both will require forged engine rebuilds

Lol @ your idea of mega power, that much has been made on stock 4g63 bottom ends.

I hate these kinds of threads, makes the majority of 420a owners look bad. I just don't understand why they can't accept that the 4g63 is superior.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/frequently-answered-dsm-questions/55417-what-does-dsm-stand.htmlFunny, under my factory hood...with factory stickers...begs to differ...which would make your post...cough cough

Galants also have that sticker does it make them DSMs? No.
I could stick a Ford sticker in my engine bay, doesn't make it a Ford.

 

[caseyrock]

The problem with the 420a is not the rings. Do you have any what you are talking about. You said the clearance between the ring and the cylinder. Have you ever taken an engine apart before?

Yep and built 'em too the rings are gapped for n/a use so when you start to throw boost in there you get a lot of blowby. Better rings (like the gapless top rings) would be the way to go. Also anyone with a 420a from 95-97 has that headstud issue....and probably won't fix it. Boost would blow that motor very quickly.


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[bryanwheat]

Yep and built 'em too the rings are gapped for n/a use so when you start to throw boost in there you get a lot of blowby. Better rings (like the gapless top rings) would be the way to go. Also anyone with a 420a from 95-97 has that headstud issue....and probably won't fix it. Boost would blow that motor very quickly.


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Now i know that you don't know what you are talking about. You want a bigger gap for a boosted vehicle than you do a n/a. The more power you are making, the bigger the gap you want.

 

[jrohner]

When doing mega HP builds 500-600+, the price to do each motor will be very similar. Both will require forged engine rebuilds, completely new turbo systems, supporting mods, and tuning. MegaSquirt is some of the best tuning software/hardware that money can buy, plenty of companies make 420a cams (CROWER makes awesome ones), and parts cost around the same for both motors.

4g63 car - stock longblock, stock chipped/flashed ecu for 500-600hp. Show me how the 420a is going to do that.

Mega hp is NOT 500-600 on a 4g63, but I'm sure it is on a 420a. Show me the 420a's that are pushing 1000+ hp.

 

[NWHTanK]

Well in my case i got lucky and parts and car fell in my lap over a 5 year time frame. Im putting a srt engine and trans in and belive it or not, it does fit the mounts are a pain. The 420a and the srt have the simular layout with the only major diff is the intake being on the front and the exaust being on the back. So if u wanting to keep ## car this could be a possable option as well.

 

[ed1380]

I'm surprised snowboarder hasn't deleted all of the useful posts yet.
After supplying real life first hand information to the last thread about 420a vs 4g63 costs I've just given up helping the 420a guys. Especially to those that think its cheaper to have a 500hp 420a than 4g63

And the guy that said dsm's stopped in 94 is just jealous the 2g's look better

 

[compression]

Or maybe it was EVO XI

Damn thats whats up.

 

[nfernotalon]

This thread is great

You guys are crazy it's easily achievable just hook up a leaf blower to the intake.

 

[91stocker]

I'm surprised snowboarder hasn't deleted all of the useful posts yet.
After supplying real life first hand information to the last thread about 420a vs 4g63 costs I've just given up helping the 420a guys. Especially to those that think its cheaper to have a 500hp 420a than 4g63

Wow man i was going to say the exact same thing. Snowboarder is the reason these 420a guys keep on thinking their cars are equal, because all the truth gets deleted and warnings handed out.

Like i said before, Actually what most of my warnings on this site are from. Trying to give 420a guys the advice they need to hear. Since im one of the few that have built n/t motors. It was another platform but still built n/a and turbo builds out of n/t. After all that i feel that it was a huge waste of my time and money.

 

[timsturbotalon]

if he wants 3-400 hp on a n/a motor, better do a ls1 swap.