16g vs 20g

[cherrymane]

i am building my 97 gst as a daily driver. my goal is to get to 350-400 and i am trying to get some help with what i will need specificly. i follewed the upgrade path but my questions are alittle more complex. like do i need a safc II or dsm? 16g or 20g and what is the difference? what size cams should i get or do i even need them? what size injectors 560 or 650? and aftermarket MAF sensor and piggy back?

the reason is because i do not feel like blowing money on things that i dont need or install, dont work, and then cant return. and i have a few ideas i just wanted some feedback from a few good members to get a better idea of what my outcome will be..... i live in florida and its hot as hell and i drive atleast 40-50 miles a day.

 

[Cdc1221]

My suggestion: do some reading. Check out builds on here. Check out threads on the 20g turbos. There are several variations of both turbos that each have different characteristics. First mod if you can afford it should be ecmlink(after maintenance of course). It will allow you to get the most out of your current setup while teaching you to tune your car, before jumping into higher hp setups. You will hate yourself if you blow your motor on a poor tune. Ask me how i know.

 

[Macspsi]

HP Goal – Min Injector Size (cc/min)*
250hp-....... 550cc
300hp-....... 650cc
350hp-....... 750cc
400hp-....... 850cc
450hp-....... 950cc
500hp-....... 1050cc

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/393264-x-hp-fuel-injectors.html

I would go with either the 850 or or 950's so you would have some room to grow. Some people will tell you to just get 1000's and that'll most likely be the last set of injectors you'll have to buy. But in that case you should get DSM link which you should plan on getting. Also to add with the injectors get a Walboro 255 and possibly a re-wire kit, it has been long debated whether or not you'll need a Fuel Pressure Regulator but I would just play it safe and get one. You can find one in the classifieds for a decent price.
I have a 16g also and I am also trying to reach the same power levels. Search around on the site, check the power levels on dsm dyno challenge listed under members that will also give you some sort of guide to follow to reach your goals.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Anything over 650cc inj and that safc won't do crap. I have 850's on my s16g now and they still have some room left in them but turbo is maxed. I would honestly say before you start upgrading, get ecmlink or similar and start tuning and learning on what you have now. Then start adding upgrades, this will make your life much easier and you will have a better idea how to make them all work together. Here's a short list I would follow. 1st on most important pm's Ecmlink, wideband, boost gauge, w255, afpr, 850-1050cc inj, e316g or 20g, fmic and piping, 1g or better bov, and so on. Just with those mods and learning to tune and you should have your goal.

 

[cherrymane]

wow guys trhank you very much!!!!! what is cheaper in price a ecmlink or dsmlink???

im not trying to go too crazy untill i can build a solid 6 bolt down the road so i should probally get 660 pounds injectors. im starting to understand the forum alittle more so im going to look for the dyno page you told me about an go from there and if i cant find what im looking for ill come and ask.... thanks guys

 

[Dsmkauai]

Same think dsmlink was the original name, and a few years ago they change to ecmlink, look for v3 lite or full version. If you get link, and go to a 16g or something I would just get 850's or bigger. I did the upgrade to 550's first with my setup and they quickly maxed out, 850's will give you the most room to grow.

 

[Kapok6]

Anything over 650cc inj and that safc won't do crap

Really, that's interesting. Good friend of mine runs a holset with at 28psi on e85 with 1600cc injectors, a chip and safc and his car is nuts fast.

 

[russell3123]

Really, that's interesting. Good friend of mine runs a holset with at 28psi on e85 with 1600cc injectors, a chip and safc and his car is nuts fast.

His chip is probably burnt for those injectors.. With out a chip its almost impossible to get that size of injectors dialed in with a safc.

 

[LandSpeed-DSM]

His chip is probably burnt for those injectors.. With out a chip its almost impossible to get that size of injectors dialed in with a safc.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[gofer]

Your buddies chip is probably set for XXXcc injectors, lets say 800cc for example, so the chip has a -44% for global correction. But, as you mentioned too, he's got 1600cc injectors but running E85 so they flow like a 1040cc injector which requires -56.7% global correction.

So the chip is pulling for whatever sized injectors it's programmed for, in this case 800cc (-44%), and he's using the SAFC for additional correction on the 1600's which again flow 1040cc on E85. What all this means is he'd only be correcting for -12.7% on that SAFC between the injector size that the chip is programmed for and the 1600's on E85 and -12.7% is less than a 550cc injector.

 

[Dsmkauai]

^^ thx for adding that info gofor! It's a pretty well known fact that anything over 650's is pushing the limits of a safc, the main issue is it gets really hard to dial in at about the 650cc point.

 

[cherrymane]

when you say chip do you guys mean link?

and what would be a good company to get 750 injectors and is there such thing a too big of injectors for my setup i wanna run??? what would be a good cam for my set up and when i buy a V3 i have to get a ecu that can be socketed right?

sorry for all the questions i dont really have anyone around me to talk to without blowing smoke and you guys have a good sense of info without having to keep rewriting new posts..... thanks alot guys

 

[Dsmkauai]

So to run ecmlink you will need a socketed EPROM ecu. Basically you remove the stock EPROM chip and replace with ecmlink's chip, well same thing goes with other chips from other companies. Most chips are pre burnt for a specific setup and injector size. The beauty of ecmlink is you have the control to dial in whatever size injector you have, make more sense. Start reading here http://www.ecmtuning.com/index.php Most dsmer's run Fic injectors, but there are many others that are good. And I wouldn't worry so much about cams just yet, get some tuning under your belt and learn how to use what you got first.

 

[Cdc1221]

Actually, this same thread pops up every day or so....

But to answer your question, ecmlink uses a chip that fits in a socketed eprom ecu, and an interface that allows you to make adjustments on the fly, without having to pull the chip from the board. Its essentially a standalone unit. You can also use preburned chips for a certain setup, like the keydiver chips, and use a piggyback like an safc to fine tune for any subtle changes in your setup

 

[gofer]

Burning chips is old school tuning, ECMLink is basically stand alone tuning software that allows you to make changes on the fly using just a laptop. Cars that have a "chipped" ECU don't have the ability to make changes like that without something like an SAFC. If a car has a chip burnt for 800cc injectors and you install 1000cc injectors on it then the ECU's got to be sent off and get the chip burnt again for the bigger injectors or use another means of fuel correction, like getting an SAFC.

After reading your first post here's what I suggest, do it right and do it once. I wanted ECMLink when I first started mod'ing my DSM but I couldn't afford it so I bought an SAFC. Had I saved a few more months and gotten ECMLink I would have been SO much better off, looking back I wish I hadn't even bothered with the SAFC. Bottom line, save for ECMLink because it's so much more than just a tuning tool. I use it to troubleshoot too, its great.

If you're shooting for 400whp then I recommend getting 1100cc or bigger injectors. Why? Because getting to 400whp on a 16g or 20g isn't going to be easy on pump gas, getting the bigger injectors gives you room to grow and you can run E85 through them with no problems if you choose to go that route in the future.

The bolt-on upgrade path is a bit dated but there are A TON of build threads that you can get ideas from. Learn from others mistakes, like my own, and don't spend your money twice on mods.

 

[Bud92gsx]

Corey I'm still running chips..Yes its old school, and as long as I dont change certain things the chip can remain..But I am getting a new tune anyway..

 

[gofer]

Running a chip isn't a bad thing, just old school and really not cost effective for the O.K. tune you get out of it. In a perfect world someone could burn a chip for 950cc injectors and you could buy a set of 950cc injectors and everything would be great, this is never the case though. This combined with the inability to control ignition timing really limits you with what you can do with the car.

 

[Kapok6]

Your buddies chip is probably set for XXXcc injectors, lets say 800cc for example, so the chip has a -44% for global correction. But, as you mentioned too, he's got 1600cc injectors but running E85 so they flow like a 1040cc injector which requires -56.7% global correction.

So the chip is pulling for whatever sized injectors it's programmed for, in this case 800cc (-44%), and he's using the SAFC for additional correction on the 1600's which again flow 1040cc on E85. What all this means is he'd only be correcting for -12.7% on that SAFC between the injector size that the chip is programmed for and the 1600's on E85 and -12.7% is less than a 550cc injector.

I totally agree. The chip has a big thing to do with it. But the original post I was referring too simply stated you couldn't run anything bigger than 650's with an s-afc...which is wrong.

With a chip, an s-afc can be used. I'm not saying it's the best, just saying people usually only give a small portion of options/info. Simply saying S-afc can't be used with injectors bigger than 650 imho is an incorrect statement. That is all.

 

[cherrymane]

Wow a lot of info and is all helpfulful... So I will be going dam link it sounds easier and a bit more unto date. U guys are awsome I never new this sight wood be so helpful. Does anybody have suggestions on cam size for what I'm trying to do?

 

[TSI_93]

Really, that's interesting. Good friend of mine runs a holset with at 28psi on e85 with 1600cc injectors, a chip and safc and his car is nuts fast.

I bet that "chip" is either link or a custom burn eeprom chip tuned for 1600cc injectors. You cant tune 1600cc injectors with safc.

 

[donniekak]

Running a chip isn't a bad thing, just old school and really not cost effective for the O.K. tune you get out of it. In a perfect world someone could burn a chip for 950cc injectors and you could buy a set of 950cc injectors and everything would be great, this is never the case though. This combined with the inability to control ignition timing really limits you with what you can do with the car.

I tuned my car with chips, and a $30 chip burner for years. I had extended fuel and timing maps, nlts, anti lag, ran e85, even speed density.

 

[gofer]

I tuned my car with chips, and a $30 chip burner for years. I had extended fuel and timing maps, nlts, anti lag, ran e85, even speed density.

...how did you control timing advance without re-burning the chip?

 

[Kapok6]

I bet that "chip" is either link or a custom burn eeprom chip tuned for 1600cc injectors. You cant tune 1600cc injectors with safc.

Read my 2nd post.