Turbo sizing, are my manual calculations right?

[CrackedDSM]

I think everything that's been said covers the 'theory' portion, but I'll just throw this out: theory doesn't really tell you much about fun.

My v1 68HTA setup is a lot of fun to drive. It's very simple - the turbo has its stock housings but I got JusMX141 to make me a Mitsubishi/Holset hybrid wastegate actuator (back when he shipped to Canada ), with FP cast exhaust manifold, Evo III o2 housing, PTP turbo blanket and a manifold blanket. It's on a crummy self-tune and a Blitz SBC i-D boost controller, but it gets going very quickly and boost control is rock steady at 21 psi to redline with a relatively low duty cycle. You could stretch it out on E85, you could port the turbine housing and o2 housing, and it would make very respectable numbers.

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I honestly think that 400WHP is where things start to go off the rails with these cars. It gets more expensive, things start to break more often, and that early torque is what makes cars fun. When you transition away to higher power, it doesn't necessarily feel as fast or engaging. You're getting a car that's faster when you really get on it, but in a street car, most of your time is spent putting around below 5,000 RPM - not squeezing the car past 7,000. The v1 68HTA is the best of all worlds, really. It matches a stock engine just as well as it matches a built engine with medium-ish cams. It didn't spool any slower than my Evo's 'Big 16G', yet it still feels like it transitions a bit smoother and has more airflow potential up top. It's the ideal bolt-on street turbo, and just happens to be one of the cheapest.

What do you think about an FP Green as a street turbo? My thoughts are it would be a good middle ground street turbo, and the extra lag would help manual transmission life. Full disclosure I’ve never even ridden in an FP green car so I have no clue about their manners.


But you’ve got me sold on that V1 68HTA.

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

What do you think about an FP Green as a street turbo? My thoughts are it would be a good middle ground street turbo, and the extra lag would help manual transmission life. Full disclosure I’ve never even ridden in an FP green car so I have no clue about their manners.


But you’ve got me sold on that V1 68HTA.

I’m pretty conservative in what I want for spool characteristics, but I think the Green would be fine. On a stroker, it would be very interesting, but torque limits would start to come into effect. I’d rather use shorter gearing than ramp up torque in that case, and the 68HTA on a 2.0 would respond best to short gearing.

 

[llxkevinxll]

What do you think about an FP Green as a street turbo? My thoughts are it would be a good middle ground street turbo, and the extra lag would help manual transmission life. Full disclosure I’ve never even ridden in an FP green car so I have no clue about their manners.


But you’ve got me sold on that V1 68HTA.

Not the person you asked directly but I ran a Justin built TD06SL2 20g, which he described as an FP Green alternate. On a ported FP manifold it would come on in the 4500 rpm range. As far as drive train longevity that's a good thing. He has mentioned a few times that turbo has trapped in the 130s. If your aspirations are in that range then the 20g configured that way or a Green are probably a great choice. If you don't need that much then you'll be giving up low end for no real gain up top. On the street it was fine, but by the time the turbo was really working you're already past the speed limit typically. If I were to go back in time I'd probably stick to a 68HTA V1/16g setup instead of going that route.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Not the person you asked directly but I ran a Justin built TD06SL2 20g, which he described as an FP Green alternate. On a ported FP manifold it would come on in the 4500 rpm range. As far as drive train longevity that's a good thing. He has mentioned a few times that turbo has trapped in the 130s. If your aspirations are in that range then the 20g configured that way or a Green are probably a great choice. If you don't need that much then you'll be giving up low end for no real gain up top. On the street it was fine, but by the time the turbo was really working you're already past the speed limit typically. If I were to go back in time I'd probably stick to a 68HTA V1/16g setup instead of going that route.

All experience/educated opinions are definitely welcome! Not sure what my goal is tbh, I really don’t think any more than 400whp. I basically want this manual trans to last as long as possible and not worry about a launch exploding it. I worry about the torque hit of a 16G killing it early vs a gradual power band of a green/tdo6sl2 turbo.

 

[llxkevinxll]

All experience/educated opinions are definitely welcome! Not sure what my goal is tbh, I really don’t think any more than 400whp. I basically want this manual trans to last as long as possible and not worry about a launch exploding it. I worry about the torque hit of a 16G killing it early vs a gradual power band of a green/tdo6sl2 turbo.

If you keep torque low enough the power up top won't hurt it too bad. Ricky tuned my car a couple times and kept the limit at 400 ft lbs. I bumped into Tim from TMZ at a show this past summer and he reiterated that limit on a stock trans. You can choose the turbo that makes the peak power you want and just ensure the tune keeps the torque where you want it. In my case, Ricky kept the timing the same between pump 93 and E85 until about 6k where the E timing map would take off and climb away from the pump map. Limiting torque in the peak torque range.

 

[CrackedDSM]

If you keep torque low enough the power up top won't hurt it too bad. Ricky tuned my car a couple times and kept the limit at 400 ft lbs. I bumped into Tim from TMZ at a show this past summer and he reiterated that limit on a stock trans. You can choose the turbo that makes the peak power you want and just ensure the tune keeps the torque where you want it. In my case, Ricky kept the timing the same between pump 93 and E85 until about 6k where the E timing map would take off and climb away from the pump map. Limiting torque in the peak torque range.

I tune myself so I definitely am of the same opinion. Great stuff guys, appreciate it.

 

[Vegas Smith]

I honestly think that 400WHP is where things start to go off the rails with these cars. It gets more expensive, things start to break more often, and that early torque is what makes cars fun. When you transition away to higher power, it doesn't necessarily feel as fast or engaging. You're getting a car that's faster when you really get on it, but in a street car, most of your time is spent putting around below 5,000 RPM - not squeezing the car past 7,000. The v1 68HTA is the best of all worlds, really. It matches a stock engine just as well as it matches a built engine with medium-ish cams. It didn't spool any slower than my Evo's 'Big 16G', yet it still feels like it transitions a bit smoother and has more airflow potential up top. It's the ideal bolt-on street turbo, and just happens to be one of the cheapest.

This is really solid advice for dsmers. In my current build I've ran an 18g, v1 HTA68, fp3052, htz76 (xr61-56) and now an xr7164. I don't think my enjoyment of the car increased past the htz76 (fp red in fp 30 housing). There's nothing wrong with the car but it doesn't fit "street" driving that well. I find myself hitting it then stopping at a round 6-6500 rpms because I want to live to see my son grow up.

 

[CrackedDSM]

This is really solid advice for dsmers. In my current build I've ran an 18g, v1 HTA68, fp3052, htz76 (xr61-56) and now an xr7164. I don't think my enjoyment of the car increased past the htz76 (fp red in fp 30 housing). There's nothing wrong with the car but it doesn't fit "street" driving that well. I find myself hitting it then stopping at a round 6-6500 rpms because I want to live to see my son grow up.

The FP3052 was always a turbo I really wanted. How was that for a street turbo? They always made such good power and seemed like they had good street manners.

 

[ist dwa]

I think where everyone messes up is the intercooler. These 100 dollar huge cores flow like crap, and square endtanks flow like crap, and sharp 90 degree turns off the endtanks flow like crap. Making power is really all about making flow. DVDT Fab was the only one to really figure it out for us.




Rich words from a log with airflow miscalibrated. AFRatioEST, which is literally the DA table the ECU is 'outputting', doesn't even match your actual output (WB).


BoostEST is only accurate at peak VE. And your values never match throughout your entire pull anyways.

Our idea of perfectly is different and I'd love to read your book on how to tune link.

LULZ...

oh your boost and boost est is off 1psi, you suck at tuning, that's not perfect they don't match at 5252rpm at peak torque...blab bla bablablalba balbablabl.

Oh your target WB and real wB don't match I am some kind of DSM ecm tuning genius. blablabla bla lab alba lb lbalb bla blah blah . I don't give a shit about A/F as long is it isn't too lean. all that matters is that boost est vs real boost and as long as they are within 1-2 PSI of each other the SD table is correct which means the air flow is correct which means the car is making power. But since you don't under stand how DSM link works and how the airflow is calculated you pick out something that is irrelivant like A/F est and FUEL which has nothing to do with air flow.

If you want to read my tuning book it's on the link forums, it isn't hard to find.

This is such a waste of time, we have literally have 3 communist friends that are collaborating against me in a we gotcha. Yeah, you guys got me, I suck, all my cars are slow, etc, etc. Show up to the SO next year and we can determine how far off my A/F ratio is.

How about you guys post some logs, let's compare, come on Canadian, let's see your V1 68 logs, I am sure you made 60lb/min? RIGHT!?

 

[Canadian_CD9A]

This is such a waste of time, we have literally have 3 communist friends that are collaborating against me in a we gotcha. Yeah, you guys got me, I suck, all my cars are slow, etc, etc. Show up to the SO next year and we can determine how far off my A/F ratio is.

How about you guys post some logs, let's compare, come on Canadian, let's see your V1 68 logs, I am sure you made 60lb/min? RIGHT!?

I’m not going to block you, but I’m not responding to you anymore. Please stop this and keep the discussion on topic.

 

[CrackedDSM]

LULZ...

oh your boost and boost est is off 1psi, you suck at tuning, that's not perfect they don't match at 5252rpm at peak torque...blab bla bablablalba balbablabl.

Oh your target WB and real wB don't match I am some kind of DSM ecm tuning genius. blablabla bla lab alba lb lbalb bla blah blah . I don't give a shit about A/F as long is it isn't too lean. all that matters is that boost est vs real boost and as long as they are within 1-2 PSI of each other the SD table is correct which means the air flow is correct which means the car is making power. But since you don't under stand how DSM link works and how the airflow is calculated you pick out something that is irrelivant like A/F est and FUEL which has nothing to do with air flow.

If you want to read my tuning book it's on the link forums, it isn't hard to find.

This is such a waste of time, we have literally have 3 communist friends that are collaborating against me in a we gotcha. Yeah, you guys got me, I suck, all my cars are slow, etc, etc. Show up to the SO next year and we can determine how far off my A/F ratio is.

How about you guys post some logs, let's compare, come on Canadian, let's see your V1 68 logs, I am sure you made 60lb/min? RIGHT!?

I would just like to say how pathetic you are for sinking to the 'communist' insults. My username on several platforms is BasedEMT, dude. There's no collaboration, and I'm 100% sure none of us who are supposedly communist collaborators agree politically either. You are delusional to the point where if I knew you, I'd have you Baker Act'd.

Legitimately feel like you are just trolling. Unlike good guy Canadian, I actually will block you though. So thankfully, don't have to view the posts of an intellectual 3 year old.

 

[Stapl3]

oh your boost and boost est is off 1psi, you suck at tuning, that's not perfect they don't match at 5252rpm at peak torque...blab bla bablablalba balbablabl.

BoostEST will diverge from actual boost past peak VE You have yours matching past peak VE. Your picture of your log shows values at ~6800rpm. To make boostEST hang with actual boost past peak VE suggests you added airflow on the table, giving a false value of 35lb/min.

 

[ist dwa]

Good now that the trolls have ignored me and blocked me we can have a real discussion about turbos on 4G63 for people like myself who actually have real knowledge, info, and experience.

For the OP you can run a HTA68 for 500whp on E, etc. If you want to run pump gas you are going to have to go one size turbo up so that would be a RED. I will agree the the IC core is super HUGE as listed, core efficiency is super important that is why I only recommend the best cores ETS, etc.

EI: 400whp, kelford 272s, ETS 4" fmic, 3" full exhaust, ECMv3 with SD, EVO3-16G and ethanol is all you need. I really don't have much else to say. All the info has been listed for decades now, all you have to do is research it.

 

[ist dwa]

BoostEST will diverge from actual boost past peak VE You have yours matching past peak VE. Your picture of your log shows values at ~6800rpm. To make boostEST hang with actual boost past peak VE suggests you added airflow on the table, giving a false value of 35lb/min.

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If you have ever tuned DSM link you would know that isn't the case. It "CAN" be the case, but I've found 99 out of 100 it's not. here is a screen shot my SD table... nothing out of the ordinary just a bunch of values in the mid-high 90s, if they were in the 100s I would say you were right but it's not, nice try though!! Look, I know how to lie via dsmlink to manipulate air flow #s, but I would only be lying to my self, that is STUPID!

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[Stapl3]

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If you have ever tuned DSM link you would know that isn't the case. It "CAN" be the case, but I've found 99 out of 100 it's not. here is a screen shot my SD table... nothing out of the ordinary just a bunch of values in the mid-high 90s, if they were in the 100s I would say you were right but it's not, nice try though!! Look, I know how to lie via dsmlink to manipulate air flow #s, but I would only be lying to my self, that is STUPID!

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From Ecmlink website:

BoostEst
BoostEst estimates “boost” from airflow per rev. On a properly configured car, this value should match measured manifold pressure pretty closely at wide open throttle around 5500-6500 RPM. Outside this range, BoostEst is expected to fall off from measured. The BoostEst calculation is not calibrated to read accurately at any other engine speed (RPM).


The fingers that typed that are the fingers that created boostest out of thin air.

 

[ist dwa]

, for 68 log the SD is literally the same I made literally no SD table changes from a 14b to an HTA 68... yeah you got me!!!!

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[CrackedDSM]

From Ecmlink website:

BoostEst
BoostEst estimates “boost” from airflow per rev. On a properly configured car, this value should match measured manifold pressure pretty closely at wide open throttle around 5500-6500 RPM. Outside this range, BoostEst is expected to fall off from measured. The BoostEst calculation is not calibrated to read accurately at any other engine speed (RPM).


The fingers that typed that are the fingers that created boostest out of thin air.

Don't feed the trolls, brotha. You're beating your head against the wall/arguing with a fencepost at this point.

 

[ist dwa]

From Ecmlink website:

BoostEst
BoostEst estimates “boost” from airflow per rev. On a properly configured car, this value should match measured manifold pressure pretty closely at wide open throttle around 5500-6500 RPM. Outside this range, BoostEst is expected to fall off from measured. The BoostEst calculation is not calibrated to read accurately at any other engine speed (RPM).


The fingers that typed that are the fingers that created boostest out of thin air.

Yeah, I've read the link forums....that was true for V2, I am telling you that just isn't the case for V3, I could literally show you 100s of logs where that is not true, I keep showing reciepts, why don't you show me some of your logs....I'll wait, go ahead, show me one where at 5500rpm it say"96-98" and then at 8k it says "84-88".... you won't find any. you won't even post a log, you are a TROLL spreading misinformation. Look, you are jealous, would you like me to tune your car, I've tuned lots of peoples car?

 

[Stapl3]

Yeah, I've rI keep showing reciepts, why don't you show me some of your logs....I'll wait, go ahead, show me one where at 5500rpm it say"96-98" and then at 8k it says "84-88".... you won't find any. you won't even post a log, you are a TROLL spreading misinformation. Look, you are jealous, would you like me to tune your car, I've tuned lots of peoples car?

How about you guys post some logs, let's compare, come on Canadian, let's see your V1 68 logs, I am sure you made 60lb/min? RIGHT!?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

You haven't posted a log yet.

 

[ist dwa]

Here is somebody elses 1000HP log, THIS IS NOT MY LOG. They flowed 96lb/min and gee what a surprise his SD is in the mid 90s...shocked face.

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Dude learn about DSM link and tuning, for now you just look like a clown.

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[Stapl3]

Pictures are not logs. But sounds good stay mad I guess.

all that matters is that boost est vs real boost and as long as they are within 1-2 PSI of each other the SD table is correct which means the air flow is correct which means the car is making power. But since you don't under stand how DSM link works

that was true for V2, I am telling you that just isn't the case for V3

"The BoostEst calculation has never changed. It assumes 100% VE. Since it is intended as an airflow sanity check at WOT, I've been tempted to alter the calculation to clip the value to zero outside the 5000-6500 rpm range to prevent misuse of BoostEst. Unfortunately, that would limit its use even with sheet-metal intake manifolds which typically maintain near 100% VE beyond 6500 rpm, but that's a minor concern."
-dmertz

Additionally:

"You would expect BoostEst to match measured boost only in the areas where you have 100% VE"
-twdorris

"Actually, using BoostEst with SD is a little strange anyway. BoostEst is calculated from airflow which is calculated (when running SD) from manifold pressure. So you really can't get much useful information comparing BoostEst to measured Boost when running SD. It's just going to tell you what you have defined in your SD VE table. But you already know that."
-twdorris

"BoostEst is a crude calculation that assumes 100% VE. If you try to adjust the SD table to get BoostEst to agree with the logged MAP sensor, you'll end up with a VE table that has 100% in each cell. Not what you want. BoostEst is essentially useless when running SD."
-dmertz

*****All of your cells in the graph in post 39 and 41, you put at 99 past peak VE. So of course it lines up. Go bolt on a 9b and put half the table at 99. The tune is perfect because boostest is a representation of the value you typed on the SD table, which is 99. If you typed in 100 and did a pull that fits the boostest algorithm of 70*F and sealevel and with XYZ physical mods, that shit would line up on the graph so much you'd only see one line.

Other interesting stuff on BoostEst:

BoostEst is only accurate where VE is at or near 100%, and it is accurate at 70* IAT. Deviation in IAT will result in deviation of BoostEst (you would expect about a 1 psi lower reading of BoostEst per 10* increase in IAT).

"The calibration of the boost estimate is also geared toward a car with a few mods, like upgraded exhaust and intercooler, so a basically-stock car might show a slightly lowre estimate. Boostest was configured on a 2g with an extrde honed IM and ported head."
-dmertz

"The boost estimate calculated by DSMLink is based on the airflow reading from the MAF and the assumption that you're running a 2.0L motor around sealevel. It is not adjustable."
-twdorris

my boost est and real boost match perfectly, but what do I know I only wrote the book on how to tune ECMlink.

you are a TROLL spreading misinformation

MFW

 

[Vegas Smith]

The FP3052 was always a turbo I really wanted. How was that for a street turbo? They always made such good power and seemed like they had good street manners.

I only used it for a few days before I sent it in for an upgrade to the HTZ76, but one thing I noticed is it was easy to get on. Bigger turbos you have to consciously decide to go fast but with the 3052 I would find myself kind of taking off at stop lights because the power was on tap.

 

[Spleen8urLSX]

I’m just curious as to where the 700 horsepower dsm black figure and 800 horsepower zero figure come from unless we’re talking estimated crank horsepower, as I’ve never seen those turbos make that on a dsm on a generous dyno let alone a Mustang dyno? Seriously as soon as the X turbo will make X amount of power nonsense started it turned into the same crap you’d find on Facebook, and opening the thread back up the Facebook crap ensued.

 

[CrackedDSM]

I’m just curious as to where the 700 horsepower dsm black figure and 800 horsepower zero figure come from unless we’re talking estimated crank horsepower, as I’ve never seen those turbos make that on a dsm on a generous dyno let alone a Mustang dyno? Seriously as soon as the X turbo will make X amount of power nonsense started it turned into the same crap you’d find on Facebook, and opening the thread back up the Facebook crap ensued.

Yeah. It 100% should’ve stayed locked. This is twice now that this dude has resorted to 10 year old on call of duty style antics. And he’s done this is more than just this thread.


Saw this coming from a mile away.

 

[Stapl3]

It feels like /pol/ more than anything to me, but I see no harm. Actually it's entertaining AF. And there is some good content in this thread if you look though it. I mean, did you know all that stuff about boostest before I posted it above? A couple things in there I learned by just being pushed to dig for it. I don't see it as a bad thing. Good luck finding another compilation post about boostest on this forum tbh. If this thread wasn't reopened, that content wouldn't exist.