Turbo opinion

[Yamahaulin]

Hey guys, i just finally found some specs on my turbo. Can you guys tell me what you think of it.

Master Power 810021 TO4E 60 Trim / Stage 3
Turbine Wheel
55.88 Exducer Diameter
61.47 Mayor Diameter
Compressor Wheel
57.91 Exducer Diameter
83.82 Mayor Diameter
Turbine Housing
. 63 A/R Undivided 4 Bolt T3
Compressor Housing
. 50 A/R 3.00" Inlet

They don't make this one anymore but they have one that is almost identical and they claim it can make 500-550. I just want to get 400awhp on pump gas with it, so hopefully i can do that.

 

[JusMX141]

Sounds like any other T04E 60-trim Garrett ripoff to me, although I have no clue what the "mayor diamter" is.

 

[JayRolla]

Like stated sounds like an ebay turbo. Its a pretty laggy turbo especially for the stage 3. Stage 5 flows so much better and is barely noticeable slower lag compared to the stage 3.

 

[Yamahaulin]

I see 20psi around 4500 rpm, was hoping for faster spool up after it gets rebuilt, it has some side to side play and it puts some oil in my pluming to throttlebody. Can I expect it to get any better or is that about right.

 

[JusMX141]

Nope, that's about as good as it gets for the .63 a/r T3 turbine housing. Might be a little quicker with a DSM bolt-on housing or a smaller .48 T3 housing, but you'd sacrifice airflow to gain spool....not something you'd want to do if you're looking for 400+ horses.

The T04E 60-trim compressor is about as ancient as it gets as far as wheel tech is concerned- there are plenty of more efficient choices out there these days.

 

[Yamahaulin]

I really want a PTE Billet 5857 in Ball bearing. I'm sure it's technology is much better and more capable of the 400 awhp on pump gas and 500+ on race gas. My question is how hard will this turbo be working to get me 400 on pump?

 

[Chicken Patty]

Nope, that's about as good as it gets for the .63 a/r T3 turbine housing. Might be a little quicker with a DSM bolt-on housing or a smaller .48 T3 housing, but you'd sacrifice airflow to gain spool....not something you'd want to do if you're looking for 400+ horses.

The T04E 60-trim compressor is about as ancient as it gets as far as wheel tech is concerned- there are plenty of more efficient choices out there these days.

Justin, you surely know more about turbos than me so correct me if I'm wrong.

60 trim's are also not very good pump gas turbos. They tend to flow much better at higher boost levels, I know the same goes for 60-1's. Meaning, depending if his car is a daily driver or not, it might not be the best choice of turbo neither.

 

[JusMX141]

On a good tune with an efficient pump gas setup, you should see around 330-350whp at 22-24psi and around 380-400whp at 28-30psi with an E60. This is allowing for the low timing curve needed to run pump gas. With the addition of meth injection or race fuel and more aggressive timing, the numbers should improve drastically.

 

[Chicken Patty]

On a good tune with an efficient pump gas setup, you should see around 330-350whp at 22-24psi and around 380-400whp at 28-30psi with an E60. This is allowing for the low timing curve needed to run pump gas. With the addition of meth injection or race fuel and more aggressive timing, the numbers should improve drastically.

So would you say I'm right or wrong? Reason I ask and comment on this is because of the convo we had the other day via PM's. I'm all about pump gas daily driven reliability. So I always try to find the best pump gas turbo. I remember when doing my research for the SRT-4 I previously had that was one of the downsides about 60 trim wheels. They flowed better than 50 trims but at higher boost levels, boost levels that cannot be done on pump.

 

[We're on Boost]

I really want a PTE Billet 5857 in Ball bearing. I'm sure it's technology is much better and more capable of the 400 awhp on pump gas and 500+ on race gas.

Aww shoot dude, I thought you bought a 5857 back in August?

 

[JusMX141]

The numbers I posted above are more than likely achievable with a 50-trim at nearly the same boost levels. I wasn't stating the 60-trim was a bad wheel choice, just very old tech.

Anytime you're running high boost on pump gas, you have to take timing away to keep from getting knock. This is why depending on your tune you're often better off running 25psi than you are 30psi because you'll have to take away so much timing to run 30psi that 25psi will be just as powerful. You don't get that with race fuel.

 

[Chicken Patty]

The numbers I posted above are more than likely achievable with a 50-trim at nearly the same boost levels. I wasn't stating the 60-trim was a bad wheel choice, just very old tech.

Anytime you're running high boost on pump gas, you have to take timing away to keep from getting knock. This is why depending on your tune you're often better off running 25psi than you are 30psi because you'll have to take away so much timing to run 30psi that 25psi will be just as powerful. You don't get that with race fuel.

No I never said that, I was just saying it might not be the best choice of wheel for pump gas. But of course, just a thought and opinion as well.

I get what you mean by timing and boost. That's why E85 is also so good right? I believe you can run insane timing while running a considerable amount of boost.

 

[JusMX141]

Right, E85 has the ability to prevent knock that is similar to race fuel. Of course E85 doesn't have the lubricity of race fuel because it's only 15% gasoline, so you may want to add an upper cylinder lubricant to your tank of E85.

 

[Chicken Patty]

Right, E85 has the ability to prevent knock that is similar to race fuel. Of course E85 doesn't have the lubricity of race fuel because it's only 15% gasoline, so you may want to add an upper cylinder lubricant to your tank of E85.

uh oh, didn't know this. I'll send you a PM now, wanna ask you something and don't want to derail the thread.

 

[Yamahaulin]

Aww shoot dude, I thought you bought a 5857 back in August?

I had the money back in august to order the turbo but right before i did some stuff came up and had to spend turbo money. I've been close to having it saved up on 2 other occasions when something come up. I'm a bit more than halfway there again and my header cracked so i'm thinking of rebuilding this turbo because of the shaft play and oil that leaking into the compressor side, while i send my header back for a replacement or fixing.

 

[JusMX141]

Not a bad idea- a relatively fresh rebuild will make the turbo worth more when you go to sell it.

 

[Yamahaulin]

What's a freshly rebuilt turbo like this worth?

 

[NOSLO2PT0]

On a good tune with an efficient pump gas setup, you should see around 330-350whp at 22-24psi and around 380-400whp at 28-30psi with an E60. This is allowing for the low timing curve needed to run pump gas. With the addition of meth injection or race fuel and more aggressive timing, the numbers should improve drastically.

Justin,
About 8 yrs ago, a very well respected old school DSM'er posted up some of this 60 trim numbers. These were the results:


60 Trim Garret
22 PSI = 424 WHP
26 PSI = 450 WHP
30 PSI = 486 WHP


Obviously we are talking race gas and a fully supported cast of modifications. This was a regular 60trim/ Stg. 3 wheel in a .63 a/r. The owner claims spool time of about 3300rpm on this turbo. I find the spool time hard to believe, but the numbers are def there. I've tuned a 60 trim to just a hair under 400whp @ 23psi, which is right in line with what I did with my FPGreen (50trim) years ago, on pump gas.

 

[JusMX141]

My only personal experience with the 60-trim compressor came on my buddy's full-weight 2G TSi AWD. He was running a Frank Level 5 20G on the stock 2G 7-bolt; the car was literally stock aside from the addition of cams, 255 pump, FIC 650's, and a FMIC.

At 22psi his DSMLink was estimating around 380, which is dead-on with the horsepower calculators for the best pass of 12.20 @ 115 he ran on a slipping clutch. The car was making around 320-330whp and was a fast, fun daily driver. The addition of head studs and larger injectors would've allowed for more boost and obviously more power made, too.

 

[Yamahaulin]

I'm gonna try to up the boost to 22-24 when i get it back and not lower timing i have been keeping it conservative anyway. I'll take it to the dyno and find out what it makes. Hopefully the rebuild will go smooth. Justin could you give me a pm when you recieve and look at the turbo and let me know how it looks.

 

[turboglenn]

IT's old tech as justin said, but hell i loved that turbo back in the day. I run one from the same era, a t3/to4e 57 trim with stage 3 hot wheel.

I have both a .48 and .63 AR hot housings and just recently switched from the .48 to the .63 and although the car sounds more "honda'ish" (makes my thermal rattle ) the top end increase was just wicked. I dyno'd 431 all turbo and 503 with a n2o shot on top with the .43.. I saw peak boost before 4500 RPM in third (30psi)

Now with the .63 I'm seeing full boost around 4800 - 5k RPM, but she pulls longer in the top due to less restriction.

Now the only reason i explained all this is because i regretted getting the 57 wheel after my friend ordered the same turbo you have basically (mine with a different wheel) and it was a lot better and building pressure, and actually hit full boost earlier than my 57 did at the time

THere's nothing wrong with that turbo, it will produce a lot of power, but no matter what turbo you have, there's really nothing that's meant to be a "pump gas turbo", but you'll never realize the potential of any large turbo that can move a lot of air at low boost because you're still probably out of it's efficiency range. YOu might want to look into alky/meth injection systems if your that stuck on pump gas...me i run e85, and although now that i moved i have to drive a half hour or more round trip to fill the tank, i still feel it's very worth it, not only is it forgivingbut it lets me put my 57 in it's range where it starts to make some power (above 24psi), and although the 57 put 332/312 to the rollers on pump gas, i like the extra 100+hp i get with the ethanol

 

[Chicken Patty]

IT's old tech as justin said, but hell i loved that turbo back in the day. I run one from the same era, a t3/to4e 57 trim with stage 3 hot wheel.

I have both a .48 and .63 AR hot housings and just recently switched from the .48 to the .63 and although the car sounds more "honda'ish" (makes my thermal rattle ) the top end increase was just wicked. I dyno'd 431 all turbo and 503 with a n2o shot on top with the .43.. I saw peak boost before 4500 RPM in third (30psi)

Now with the .63 I'm seeing full boost around 4800 - 5k RPM, but she pulls longer in the top due to less restriction.

Now the only reason i explained all this is because i regretted getting the 57 wheel after my friend ordered the same turbo you have basically (mine with a different wheel) and it was a lot better and building pressure, and actually hit full boost earlier than my 57 did at the time

THere's nothing wrong with that turbo, it will produce a lot of power, but no matter what turbo you have, there's really nothing that's meant to be a "pump gas turbo", but you'll never realize the potential of any large turbo that can move a lot of air at low boost because you're still probably out of it's efficiency range. YOu might want to look into alky/meth injection systems if your that stuck on pump gas...me i run e85, and although now that i moved i have to drive a half hour or more round trip to fill the tank, i still feel it's very worth it, not only is it forgivingbut it lets me put my 57 in it's range where it starts to make some power (above 24psi), and although the 57 put 332/312 to the rollers on pump gas, i like the extra 100+hp i get with the ethanol

To me, hands down the best pump gas turbo is the 50 trim. Not only that but it spools super fast. I know it's a different car, but my SRT-4 made 367whp at 19psi on a 50 trim, stock motor/stock clutch and flyhweel. Pump gas tune @ 11.8 a/f ratio mild timing (don't recall exactly how much timing.) I ran a few GT35R equipped SRT-4's at 22psi and murdered all of them. It's powerband! Of course, GT35R at higher boost and with a higher rev limit then we are cooking! But I had also a 57 trim and a SC61. The 57 trim was horrible, made much less power and was more laggy, the SC61 had great top end (.82 a/r housing) but was laggy and powerband was no good. So out of the 3, the 50 trim was my favorite and it was proven to be the better turbo. At least on my car it was.

 

[Yamahaulin]

I can't get E85 anywhere around here, wish i could cause that's what i'd run. So I run shell 93 daily and will run C16 for high boost.