those who have made 400+ on an EVO III 16g

[HighPSI TSi Guy]

thats the truth right there.

The secret is the dyno queen dyno... the dynojet!!!


I honestly dont understand why so many people get bent out of shape about dyno numbers. Why dont they set a certain 0-60 or 70-90 or trap speed or 1/4 mile time goal?
A dyno is a tuning tool that tells you if a certain change made makes more or less power than before.

Our local mustang dyno is a true "heartbreaker" dyno when it comes to people that really car about the # they put out. I could care less if i make 430 hp on our mustang dyno, but 500 on a dyno jet. Either way im going to crack a very high 10 second slip at the 1/4 mile!

I like our local tuner and dyno because he knows exactly what you should run with the #'s you put down. You can give him any part of the equation... hey i just ran a 12.8 on a 16g flowing 36 lb/min... he'll answer with well you are probably making 270 whp on our dyno. Or hey i want to run a low 11 second slip, he'll say lets shoot for 400hp. Or the magic # to have power potential for a 10 second slip is pretty much anything over 430.

If dyno number's are your goal and your bragging point, then go dyno at a dynojet all the time. If you want a certain performance level from your car, and dont worry about dyno numbers, get to a mustang dyno with a tuner that knows his setup and the real world results that have come from their dyno, and you will leave happy.


OP, good luck with your goal, more power to you if you can crack 400whp with a 16g, im sure you will let us all know the "secrets" needed to get there because you contribute to this forum on the daily basis. In no way am i trying to hate on your goal or anything, just giving my point of view on the whole thing.

My advice for a t3 platform that will give a very wide powerband... BW s256 with a t3 .70 housing. Again... good luck!

The dynojet story is what all the adjustable dyno cheaters want you to believe.

The truth is, the Dynojet is THE INDUSTRY STANDARD. It is NOT adjustable, and reads CONSISTENTLY.

ALL OTHER DYNOS ARE 100% ADJUSTABLE TO READ HOWEVER THE OPERATOR WANTS!

Some operators do it on purpose, so do it because they are too stupid to properly operate their equipment. A lot of dyno operators will play the "everyone knows a dynojet reads higher" card while jacking the numbers up on their adjustable dyno to make the owner think their car would put down 70 more whp on a dynojet when in reality the "lower reading dyno" has actually been adjusted. In the 90s it wasn't a big issue as internet horspower wars weren't a big deal and people were more accepting of reality. These days everyone wants the biggest number to post on the internet, real or not, so adjustable dyno cheating has become the latest fad of the tuning industry. Timeslips tell the story.

 

[dsm-onster]

What is magical about 400 w.h.p. on an EVOIII 16g? It's been done over and over again, documented on this very website, a bill of material with everything but prices was listed. Now people are talking about magical dyno's, come on already. Even the Curt Brown "499 w.h.p." recipe was laid out like a damned cook book for everyone to replicate. What secrets?

High Compression 2.0l
Slightly Ported Head
FP Race Cams
FP Manifold
FP E316G
JMF Intake Manifold
Buschur FMIC
Light Weight Drivetrain Stuff

That is the list. What's in bold is the secrets. What was ported, what profile, what was lightened, what compression? Many of those things can be guestimated fairly accurately. But you also have to add to those guesses that no one saw the engine bay. As mentioned earlier there a few little tricks that really alter results, I.E. the turbo ram pipe. As well the tune. DSMLink software is an opensource platform. There's some innovative things a good tuner can do. It was "a well prepared car".

Not at all negating the ability of the evo3 16g to hang on for a 400whp trapspeed; still there's not too many trapspeed/weight combinations that show over 400whp with an evo3 16g with that above list in other cars. Give the man the credit not the turbo. He's also pushed the gt35r turbo to nearly 800whp.

 

[turboglenn]

High Compression 2.0l
Slightly Ported Head
FP Race Cams
FP Manifold
FP E316G
JMF Intake Manifold
Buschur FMIC
Light Weight Drivetrain Stuff

That is the list. What's in bold is the secrets. What was ported, what profile, what was lightened, what compression? Many of those things can be guestimated fairly accurately. But you also have to add to those guesses that no one saw the engine bay. As mentioned earlier there a few little tricks that really alter results, I.E. the turbo ram pipe. As well the tune. DSMLink software is an opensource platform. There's some innovative things a good tuner can do. It was "a well prepared car".

Not at all negating the ability of the evo3 16g to hang on for a 400whp trapspeed; still there's not too many trapspeed/weight combinations that show over 400whp with an evo3 16g with that above list in other cars. Give the man the credit not the turbo. He's also pushed the gt35r turbo to nearly 800whp.

This is exactly the point i'm trying to get at...why is it that they can dyno over 400 but can't pull trap speeds worth over 400 when in some theory the sooner spooling turbo should provide more torque soon and thus a broader power band, but in the real worlld it just don't work out like that.. I'm glad the one i was going to get is gone, now he can pay me cash and i can start working on getting that 20g on for now until i decide what i'm going to have done to my garrett as far as wheel upgrades and such

 

[the_mork]

As for an EVO III intake manifold... are those fairly common to find or is that a PITA? I ask because although i love DSM's my work keeps me researching all kinds of particular engines and cars, really not leaving me to explore what's available in one market too much, thus leaving me blind to some of the less used parts that are the little tricks here and there poeple use.

Unless you want to switch to a 2g head then this is not an option for you. You probably already know that by now but I thought I would just make sure you were aware.

 

[pboglio]

Matt,

If somebody can produce a "detailed" spec list of parts utilizing the EVOIII 16g, then lay down over 400 w.h.p., then it is non-relevant that "not too many" people have done so. Assuming the results are valid of course. Why, because of the scientific method. If it can be done once, it can be done an infinite amount of times given the same physical conditions. I don't see anybody giving credit to the engineers who designed the EVOIII turbo, the guys who designed the 4g63engine block, cylinder head, intake manifold. Guys that designed and devoloped the EVO series cars, won WRC events with it, which fueled the fire to optimize and refine the 16g series turbos. Cars that are making some huge torque numbers pulling air thru an FIA restrictor the size of a silver dollar. I give credit to Curt Brown, but come on already.

This is an interesting thread, but the 416 w.h.p. recipe was listed under the tech section of this very website with detailed dyno plots, boost curves, parts lists, testing conditions: http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...8481-internally-gated-turbos-tested-dyno.html

 

[dsm-onster]

As I mentioned, we did not get the whole story; of which Nathan freely admitted, "secrets". Not dyno manipulation, since trapspeeds donot lie. Not nitrous. There are other tips and tricks; as no one would even relinquish engine bay shots or datalogs. And rightfully so. This is a group of guys who've been messing with these cars since the 1990s. They have a right to keep their secrets. Details of those highlighted aspects are never discussed, however a small difference in each will drastically affect performance. And as said, there's things like turbo velocity stacks, intake pipe shape and orientation, intercooler pipe shape, cam timing, etc. Proven to alter results tremendously. There's more too it than just the list you have. That is ALL I'm saying. And results by the masses with those very upgrades supports that.

Its a good base model, of course. But everybody already knows that you'll need some hot cams, high compression, a proven SMIM, a proven exhaust manifold, a good flowing intercooler, and less rotating mass to get the most out of any build. But we can't be scientific. We can't completely replicate the experiment. And the factors we are guessing on dramatically alter the results. Factors we'll need to go out on our own and spend years learning, like Brown and his core group of assistance has. 400whp with that silhouette partslist? Definately, definately, definately possible. 100whp more? You'll need to iron out some more details.

I DO give credit to the engineers of this platform. We're spoiled because we get such great results just throwing parts on. But there comes a point where you're on your own. It's up to you to figure out the next move. No matter how well an engine is initially designed, there's plenty there to improve. So all I'm saying is that the devil is in the details. And we don't have them. We can [L]earn them, yes.

 

[jrohner]

From knowing you're accomplishments from reading on this board i was hoping you'd chime in. As for "have the right parts" that's what i'm trying to figure out. No one that's doing it lists what parts they are running...

here's a list of one guys mods making over 400 on a 16g... well i have all this and more but that don't net me 400 horses... care to enlighten some of us on some of the key components? Or are you just tuning on the ragged edge like 12.5:1 with 27* timing through out the entire curve?

I ran 21-22` peak timing, and my compression test a couple years ago showed 150PSI (I WISH I had 10:1 compression). The boost was at about 26-28psi at spool up, tapering to 22-23. Not too long before the dynojet, I also ran on a DynoDynamics dyno , and it got 370hp @ 5700RPMs (still had about 310hp at 8000rpms).

he is leaving tons of things out , well every thing listed in my pro is exactly what i had when i made those dyno pulls. well here is an example, i was making 425hp and i was trying to make some more power.....we had 3in velocity stacks laying around so i put it on. car made 43*somthing hp..i was like wow. the car held boost longer and made an extra lb or 2, so i tried somthing elts. my car had an s-type intake pipe (2 90's), so i made another intake pipe using 2 45's.......car made 10more hp so that got me to 440+hp. also the cams made like 20hp when i retarded them 6deg.

Here are the 'tons' of things I forgot to list in my profile: Injen intake pipe, air filter, 1G BOV crushed, 1g throttle body. Wow, there are the crazy secrets I was guarding with my life . 2G: engine, head, intake, o2 housing (stock, NOT ported), exhaust manifold (ported where it meets the turbine housing).

Never changed AFR, timing, boost, or anything else between my 3 pulls -- My car has NEVER been tuned on a dyno, only on the road in front of my parents' house, and 100% by me. I don't even have adjustable cam gears, so that's never been touched either.

I'll let you know when I tune the next 2G 16G car that we're expecting around 400hp out of; it's my cousin's car that currently has 321hp (dynojet) on the stock SMIC and stock cams.

 

[dsm-onster]

Good stuff! What was your MPH and race weight? if you were making 500whp, yes you would have a few tricks up your sleave. Apparently you dont . Good results.

 

[jrohner]

Good stuff! What was your MPH and race weight? if you were making 500whp, yes you would have a few tricks up your sleave. Apparently you dont . Good results.

There's no 1/4 mile track around here. We'll see how it does at the 1/8 mile this summer though -- only 1 pass last year, and I was burning bald tires at 7.91 @ 93MPH.

I just got an Evo3 style intake manifold and an ebay SS tubular o2 housing, so hopefully they help me out some, as well as having real logging capabilities now that I have an Evo 8 ECU in it. I hope Fidanza will stand behind the 4.3 6 buck that all the springs broke in w/in a couple thousand daily driving miles, so I don't have to buy a new one again.

 

[dsm-onster]

See, this is a more realistic goal. About 30psi falling to 23ish and just over 400whp on a dynojet. Looking forward to your results.

 

[red91gst]

Good stuff! What was your MPH and race weight? if you were making 500whp, yes you would have a few tricks up your sleave. Apparently you dont . Good results.

Just to throw this in...

In Curt's car two years ago at the shootout we went [email protected] on the 16g, same setup from the 499awhp dyno, 2700lbs race weight.

 

[pboglio]

An increase in compression ratio from say 8.5:1 to 10.5:1 for example represents a 12% increase in horsepower, or roughly 50 w.h.p. increase, simulated in desktop dyno. The cams Curt Brown ran FP4R/FP5R were worth an extra +40 over a set of HKS 272 cams on the EVO cam shootout, on a bigger turbo at the same boost levels. See what I'm getting at, that 99 w.h.p. increase looks huge, it's not when you start messing with big compression increases, radical cams. Everything I'm talking about requires no further increases in compressor flow.

Gains from lightening the rotating assembly can be quite good. You have your basic lightweight wheel & tire combo, lightweight flywheel, cutting down of the crankshaft counterbalance weights, lightweight accesory pulleys, lightweight connecting rods and/or pistons, cutdown or removed balance shaft, lighter clutch pressure plate & friction disc, possibly removed viscous coupler in the transmission, etc. etc..

Then you have reducing internal oil frictional losses running lightweight engine racing oil, running straight cut transmission spur gears vs. helical gears worth about a 1-2% gain in engine power, lightweight gear oil, dry sump oil system, etc. Do you really think these secrets were invented by DSM owners. Any engine performance building book lists this shit out like a laundry list. My point is, I see no vodoo magic. An awesome achievement though

 

[JayRolla]

Just to throw this in...

In Curt's car two years ago at the shootout we went [email protected] on the 16g, same setup from the 499awhp dyno, 2700lbs race weight.

Yet another dynojet queen! But very impressive. This would have dynoed over 400whp on probably any dyno making it one that did hit at over 400.

400whp has always been my goal on a dynojet with my 16g. Without cams I estimate 360-380whp dynojet worthy but I dont know untill I hit that dyno. Link estimates 405hp at the crank. Im about to upgrade my turbo since I'm tired of not having any boost at high rpms which you can really feel the power drop at 6krpms. Thats what I hate about 16g dynos. The power spikes and drops off real hard.

To the OP why not look into an hx35. I know everyone is talking ups and downs but that would outspool that 20g and flow just as well or better depending on what one you get. Its journal bearing and doesnt like to break. I was going to get a 20g but they are just dogs when spooling and for the air they flow its not worth it. I just got the OK from the wife to get an hx40 8/12 blade. Flows 60lb/min and out spools a gt3076r. I was going to get cams but for the same price or cheaper I can get a new turbo and that will give me a lot more top end than some cams IMO.

 

[dsm-onster]

I'm sure he would have put down WELL over 400whp with a dyno dynamics (heart breaker dyno).

Just to throw this in...

In Curt's car two years ago at the shootout we went [email protected] on the 16g, same setup from the 499awhp dyno, 2700lbs race weight.

Thanx. Curt is amazing. Even better stuff(of course)! That turbo was hanging on for dear life. I believe I've already brought up that he's proven his dyno run with a trap speed and weight. I saw it.

pboglio, you think you have the formula. Go do it and stop preaching . We've had only one response from one owner of a '400whp evo3 16g powered car'. With no trap speed and weight (no offense to that poster). And then the tuner for CB's car respond (Nate no offense to you at all; actually admiration). . .

BTW DesktopDeeno is sorely mistaken. The thermal efficiency is VERY parallel to the resulting cylinder pressure increase ON BOOST from 8.2 to 12 to 1 CR. Cylinder pressure is very much directly proportional to torque. So take your gatherings to the track and show it to work again with your own intake and various pumping losses. In the mean time, the rest of us will realize a larger turbo is less headache.

The evo3 16g car can certainly hang on for 400whp. I feel like I'm repeating myself. Lets find out how it makes 470 whp trap speeds or 500whp trap speeds.

 

[Mr Peepers]

For what it's worth, I *may* have 400whp or so according to a dynojet judging by trap speed and weight. 3050 with me in it and not much gas, and the highest trap was 119.66

24psi falling to 22 with a beefed up 18psi WGA.

I would like to dyno it for giggles but I am more interested in track times. Everything in my profile is up to date.

 

[turboglenn]

Just ot make clear I DID NOT start this thread ot dog on jrohnner on anyone else that just has a 16 and minor other mods and ahve dyno's 400+.... I was just wanting to know the whole story behind it... ANd at this oint i can understand what's up basically, and i can tell you it's NOT something i am going to do...at minimum i want a turbo that's going to hold 30psi to 8500 RPM without it's guts spinning out....
i've hit 431 on this 57 trim and it holds till redline.. I'm honestly just after the fastest spooling setup to yield 400+ horse... I've got tuning secrets out the wazoo, but it's the setup secrets for these cars that i'm lacking. I can do a lot with a porsche (944,911,928,etc..) as i've worked on tweaking every last ounce of power from them under SCCA sanctions. Of course in the HP game there really isn't anysanctions to follow and now i can see that with dynojet and low restriction and light drivetrain you can get a higher number, but there's still some parts i don't know about i'm sure.

 

[bastard dsm]

you will get there gelnn, so does my car fit the 400+hp line-up, 3300lbs without driver
120mph trap and 95mph in the 1/8th?

 

[pneumo]

The fastest spooling setup to hold 400+whp? The GT3071 comes to mind. Or a 20G. Since you have some decent fab skills, how about an evo 9 turbo?
As far as 'secret parts', just make sure there aren't any restrictions anywhere. You'd be suprised how many people "upgrade" to a ported 2G O2 housing and expect results. Some upgrades just lighten your wallet.

 

[dsm-onster]

You'd be suprised how many people "upgrade" to a ported 2G O2 housing and expect results. Some upgrades just lighten your wallet.

Amen!

 

[the_mork]

The fastest spooling setup to hold 400+whp? The GT3071 comes to mind. Or a 20G. Since you have some decent fab skills, how about an evo 9 turbo?

I just saw a thread about someone using an evoX turbo with a custom manifold, IIRC it is oriented correctly for our engines, the person used an aftermarket upgrade which was a twin scroll 20g and claimed mad spool time and power.

 

[JayRolla]

The fastest spooling setup to hold 400+whp? The GT3071 comes to mind. Or a 20G. Since you have some decent fab skills, how about an evo 9 turbo?
As far as 'secret parts', just make sure there aren't any restrictions anywhere. You'd be suprised how many people "upgrade" to a ported 2G O2 housing and expect results. Some upgrades just lighten your wallet.

HX35 would easily outspool that turbo.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Glenn, I agree with Jayrolla, just get a hx35 and be done with it. That seems it would be the cheapest fastest spooling turbo to reach your goal. Even if the 20g could provide good results, the cost difference alone makes it a poor choice imo, not to mention slower spool.

I used to think it was a big deal making high numbers on the 16g turbos, but as others have said, the formula has been laid out over and over again. So if your a competent tuner like you say you are, its really just copy and paste at this point, and maybe even easier for you since your fwd...

Basically with the formula others have used, I see no reason you , or me, or anyone else with half a brain couldnt make those numbers on a 16g. When my engines built and the setups back together ( jmf smim, kelford272s, higher compression ) Im going to give e100 a try, lean her out, crank the timing and boost WAY up and briefly shoot for the "magical" 400 +whp myself on my evo3 before switching to the 56mm 6blade hx40 I recently purchased.

Also I must add dont soley focas on being a dyno queen, I think the dyno numbers dont mean as much as track times.
Last year I raced a turbo charged Sentra spec V that put out higher numbers than me on the same dyno that this guy also seemed to like bragging about; until I beat him from a roll with the same tune I had on the dyno. So in other words, good dyno numbers dont mean its fast...

If I never reach 400+ myself it wouldnt matter because Im positive low 11s, with 120 something traps wont be an issue since my cars already been high 11s on a much lesser setup with this 16g. Though running 10s on the 16gs are even feasible now days http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

BUT with this said, I also know that in most cases, the e316gs will probably grenade within a matter of months when running at these levels, so I hope people dont expect longevity or consistency out of e316gs pushed like that, because thats just not realistic...

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

The fastest spooling setup to hold 400+whp? The GT3071 comes to mind. Or a 20G. Since you have some decent fab skills, how about an evo 9 turbo?
As far as 'secret parts', just make sure there aren't any restrictions anywhere. You'd be suprised how many people "upgrade" to a ported 2G O2 housing and expect results. Some upgrades just lighten your wallet.

You have to fab a lot of stuff to make a EVO9 turbo to fit.

 

[JayRolla]

Glenn, I agree with Jayrolla, just get a hx35 and be done with it. That seems it would be the cheapest fastest spooling turbo to reach your goal. Even if the 20g could provide good results, the cost difference alone makes it a poor choice imo, not to mention slower spool.

I used to think it was a big deal making high numbers on the 16g turbos, but as others have said, the formula has been laid out over and over again. So if your a competent tuner like you say you are, its really just copy and paste at this point, and maybe even easier for you since your fwd...

Basically with the formula others have used, I see no reason you , or me, or anyone else with half a brain couldnt make those numbers on a 16g. When my engines built and the setups back together ( jmf smim, kelford272s, higher compression ) Im going to give e100 a try, lean her out, crank the timing and boost WAY up and briefly shoot for the "magical" 400 +whp myself on my evo3 before switching to the 56mm 6blade hx40 I recently purchased.

Also I must add dont soley focas on being a dyno queen, I think the dyno numbers dont mean as much as track times.
Last year I raced a turbo charged Sentra spec V that put out higher numbers than me on the same dyno that this guy also seemed to like bragging about; until I beat him from a roll with the same tune I had on the dyno. So in other words, good dyno numbers dont mean its fast...

If I never reach 400+ myself it wouldnt matter because Im positive low 11s, with 120 something traps wont be an issue since my cars already been high 11s on a much lesser setup with this 16g. Though running 10s on the 16gs are even feasible now days http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/drag-strip/335310-10-6-125-evoiii-16g-awd-auto.html

BUT with this said, I also know that in most cases, the e316gs will probably grenade within a matter of months when running at these levels, so I hope people dont expect longevity or consistency out of e316gs pushed like that, because thats just not realistic...

What bad 16gs did you get plagued with BlackBullit. I have been spiking too 30+psi for over a year on a 4 year old turbo and still zero in out shaft play and very little side to side. My brother is doing the same and his turbo is over 6 years old and no in out shaft play. Jack ran 40+psi spikes (welded WG and lots of porting) for two race seasons on a 5 year old turbo before it finally gave out.

 

[Black_Bullet]

Ive ran 25psi daily towards the end of last yr, and on top of that my evoIII has over 2 yrs of 20+ psi boosting with proper oiling and 20+k of daily driving in hot Florida temperatures and mines is finally on its way out. At 30+ psi, I think I have enough life in it to set some numbers and track it a few times, with a little street driving but maybe thats it.
With that said, Im not bashing the turbo its been great for me. Ive had a china GT evo316g before also which didnt fair as well.

Im very aware of your situation Jason, and I know of other ppl like you that run this type of boost daily,
but I personally wouldnt feel comfortable tellign ppl that this is the norm.
As many examples as you have with people successfully running that much boost, I have even more examples of ppl who arent successful in doing so with this turbo. The shaft speeds get violent in a hurry when you try to run over 30psi on these things. I recall mines starting the shaft play shortly after I started running 25ish, and having wastegate creeping issues spiking even higher ( 28ish) on cold nights, one of the reasons I went external on this thing.

To conclude, I will say, though, these are excellently designed turbos with good potiential. But in hindsight now days they dont seem worth the money to buy them new due to better options on the market around similar price ( i.e. holset), but if you can find a good condition e316g used its definitely an awesome street turbo that some can get away with harsh use on - IF everything is up to par yes it can be done, and done for a good while, but this is also using a REAL MHI evo316g without boost leaks also to keep it alive as long as possible.