The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

We're definately behind you Nate! You've been keeping things interesting this year, we just want you to get a clean pass already. Alot of us "slower" guys have been getting out, but again we speak of those fellas with big ellaborate setups that are no where to be found. Makes me happy. Right now you're the closest to doing anything record breaking Nate so get it done!

 

[Steve93Talon]

Ok, finally the weather is great (high 70s-low 80s, low humidity, zero chance of rain). Track is open for T&T. Car is running well, got the slicks & tools in the trunk. hopefully I'll have something worthwhile to post tonight!

Brief history: My previous 14b setup ran a best of 12.12 @ 112 about 6 years ago, my goal was always to get it into the 11s on the 14b but it didn't happen and I gave in to the big turbo allure with an S256 setup. Then the car was totalled, I picked up an EVO, had some fun but always wanted to do another 14b setup and do it "right". I started out with a '90 Laser shell, then my friend parted out his '93 Talon AWD so I picked up his shell and built it with the parts I'd been gathering. This made things alot easier since his car already had a cage, suspension, and alot of weight reduction. The car's converted to FWD since I already had the trans and 2 slicks but I may convert back eventually.

I don't think I've mentioned it in this thread, but my main reason for building a FWD this time around is because it's a tribute to my good friend Wendy, who passed away in Dec '09. She was about as hardcore as you could get with these cars. She held the FWD 16g record for awhile. Her goal was always to put her car in the 10s on a stock appearing turbo. When she got sick, her husband rallied the DSM community and built her a great setup, but unfortunately she never got to see it run (she did get to see it make 545whp on the dyno though, somehow fitting that the last time I spoke to her was that day with her car screaming in the background). Ever since, it's been my goal to get her that 10 second slip with a small turbo FWD setup. Wish me luck!

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/hangout/346164-girlieracr4g63-wendy-please-read-pics-added.html

 

[Phil1320]

Oh man....that was too bad, sad story. I never met her, but I remember her car looking pretty bad azz in the avatar.

Whelp, go get it man....another 11 second 14b???

 

[Nate Crisman]

Going to the shop in a few minutes to finish up the motor.

Last night:

• got the 2G ported head cleaned up & gasket surfaces prepped w/ HG sprayed.
• Bolted the head down to 100ft-lb
• Installed valvetrain and GSC S2 cams w/ stock gears
• Installed intake manifold, exhaust manifold and all the turbine/o2/external/DP.
• setup the Tbelt and tension.

Tonight's To-Do list:

• Turbo cartridge & oil lines
• timing belt case, acc pulleys, belt, mount.
• Fuel rail, fuel lines
• connect vac lines and wiring to engine.
• bolt on cas and tstat housing, rad hoses.
• Valve cover, plugs & wires
• IC and pipe connections
• Fill water, check oil, connect battery wires.

Saturday I'll start it up, set the base timing, and get it loaded up to run on sunday pending no rain. Weather channel is showing 70% chance of rain so it's not looking good for a record attempt in August. Might have to wait till september now as Im leaving next sunday for Vacation will Aug 31 and Im working full time which precludes wednesday and friday track days. Bleck!

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Ready to rock on sunday if the weather cooperates. Tomorrow I'll fill water, start it, set the base timing, and compression test.

 

[Phil1320]

Nice.....hopefully you get some runs in tomorrow. I suppose if you get to the track early enough you might. Best of luck.....

 

[SBstar]

Sounds great Nate! Get that thing pushing.

Where's the update Steve? Thanks for that story. I didn't know Wendy at all, but she's become a hero in the dsm community and is obviously sorely missed.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Where's the update Steve? Thanks for that story. I didn't know Wendy at all, but she's become a hero in the dsm community and is obviously sorely missed.

Sorry I didn't post last night, got home pretty late. The track was pretty empty early on, filled up after 8-ish. I got 7 runs in. The slicks were brand new so I think I had to break them in on the first few passes. Driving on them is VERY different from the street tires. The car still spins through 1st and I have to pedal it quite a bit (still need to get a solenoid and hook up boost by gear). 2nd gear on, it dead hooks and goes straight as an arrow. I started out pulling high 1.9 60's, and ended the night with a best of 1.882. The first pass was a 12.85, followed by a couple 12.7s, then a 12.59. Then my best pass of the night (I'll upload the slip soon):

60' 1.932
330 5.392
1/8 8.118
MPH 89.43
1/4 12.477
MPH 114.88

The following pass was the 1.88, but something was off a bit, ran 12.57, not quite sure why it slowed down, maybe just shifted a hair slower, who knows. Best 1/8 mph was 90.02. All in all, I can't complain, first time ever driving a FWD on slicks (I've run slicks on my Mustang a million years ago). Nothing broke, drove it to and from the track on "pump" gas. From looking at the DSMtimes list, this should put me about #7 on the 14b FWD no nitrous list.

I think I can squeeze an 11 out of it, I'd definitely like to get the LSD in before I take it back down. There's still some weight I can remove easily. I still had the pass. seat in (30lbs), I had about 1/3 tank of gas. My tune was pretty choked out on the dyno, but I'm wondering if I can get it to hit a bit more boost. It was only seeing 23-24 peak no matter how much I turned the MBC. I'm wondering if pulling the vacuum line would do anything, or if I do the ECU boost maybe the solenoid will help a hair.

Here's a link to a video of one of the passes (of course it's the only run I lost )

VIDEO

 

[forcefed86]

Sorry I didn't post last night, got home pretty late. The track was pretty empty early on, filled up after 8-ish. I got 7 runs in. The slicks were brand new so I think I had to break them in on the first few passes. Driving on them is VERY different from the street tires. The car still spins through 1st and I have to pedal it quite a bit (still need to get a solenoid and hook up boost by gear). 2nd gear on, it dead hooks and goes straight as an arrow. I started out pulling high 1.9 60's, and ended the night with a best of 1.882. The first pass was a 12.85, followed by a couple 12.7s, then a 12.59. Then my best pass of the night (I'll upload the slip soon):

60' 1.932
330 5.392
1/8 8.118
MPH 89.43
1/4 12.477
MPH 114.88

The following pass was the 1.88, but something was off a bit, ran 12.57, not quite sure why it slowed down, maybe just shifted a hair slower, who knows. Best 1/8 mph was 90.02. All in all, I can't complain, first time ever driving a FWD on slicks (I've run slicks on my Mustang a million years ago). Nothing broke, drove it to and from the track on "pump" gas. From looking at the DSMtimes list, this should put me about #7 on the 14b FWD no nitrous list.

I think I can squeeze an 11 out of it, I'd definitely like to get the LSD in before I take it back down. There's still some weight I can remove easily. I still had the pass. seat in (30lbs), I had about 1/3 tank of gas. My tune was pretty choked out on the dyno, but I'm wondering if I can get it to hit a bit more boost. It was only seeing 23-24 peak no matter how much I turned the MBC. I'm wondering if pulling the vacuum line would do anything, or if I do the ECU boost maybe the solenoid will help a hair.

Here's a link to a video of one of the passes (of course it's the only run I lost )

Nice runs! Pressure in slicks?

There is a ton on the table with those 60's! You have any timing/launch control?

 

[SBstar]

Not bad at all! 12.47 is my best from last year, with a very similar 60ft. AND you're fwd ! I'm currently holding the MBC at 21psi, do you think you're gaining anything forcing the max pressure out of the turbo? I know Phil has stated he gained nothing going over 21. I'm somewhat tempted to turn it up a few psi and see if I get any more gains out of it. Perhaps at the shootout after I try a few runs and see what it does currently with better driving. But good job man! Mid 12's are great on the 14b, especially fwd even with slicks.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Kudos on getting out there to both! FWD takes a real patient man IMHO.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Nice runs! Pressure in slicks?

There is a ton on the table with those 60's! You have any timing/launch control?

Thanks, I was running 12psi at first and dropped it down to around 8 after a few passes. I was using DSMlink's stutterbox to launch, had it at 4k. I was actually considering using their dual map switching to run a lower timing table for 1st gear and activate it with a speed based trigger. Shouldn't be hard to set up, just haven't had time to experiment with it yet.

Not bad at all! 12.47 is my best from last year, with a very similar 60ft. AND you're fwd ! I'm currently holding the MBC at 21psi, do you think you're gaining anything forcing the max pressure out of the turbo? I know Phil has stated he gained nothing going over 21. I'm somewhat tempted to turn it up a few psi and see if I get any more gains out of it. Perhaps at the shootout after I try a few runs and see what it does currently with better driving. But good job man! Mid 12's are great on the 14b, especially fwd even with slicks.

I can't speak for Phil. I know from my previous setup, I definitely got faster with more boost. With the current setup, I gained power with every pull when I turned the MBC up, until the point where it stopped adding any boost. Thanks for the compliments. Good luck at the SO, hope to see you crack 11s!

Kudos on getting out there to both! FWD takes a real patient man IMHO.

Definitely nice to see a few 14b setups making passes. I think anyone running a 14b has more patience than the typical slap-on-a-big-turbo crowd

 

[pneumo]

Definitely nice to see a few 14b setups making passes. I think anyone running a 14b has more patience than the typical slap-on-a-big-turbo crowd

I agree! Trying to find more speed in other areas of the car is a fun part of a small turbo setup. It opens your eyes to other areas of tuning.

 

[Phil1320]

Nice Steve! Good start! Wow....down to 8 psi and still have traction issues.....hmmmmm.....how long are you heating them up in the burnout box? You need a solid 4-8 seconds to put heat in them. That could be it. If you can get it to launch at full boost, rather than the staged or stepped boost control you are talking about, you will only be faster in the end. Phantom Grip is cheap and it works as well, especially for drag racing. Do you have an AWD left side axle in there? Another way to help launches. Also, custom made traction bars that help keep the front lower a-arms from causing a toe out situation on the launch will also help further.

As far as me not making any more power after 21 psi. Keep in mind, I've only run the stock side mount, one that had larger inlet/outlet(useless IMHO,) and the EVO FMIC. I was HEATSOAKING the living hell out of it as previously talked about with my inconsistent trap speeds. You could feel the car lay down once in 4th gear around 1000ft. Seems like everything went to slow motion.

So, it's good to hear that more boost means more power....however, more power on the dyno is not comparable to running down the track. Might make more power on paper at a standstill, but fighting air and drag of the pavement might cause that "gain" to go unnoticed and work the turbo that much harder.

I'll experiment when my car is running again. I don't think I'll have to run much more than 21 again......and I expect a 50 whp gain at that same boost. So approximately 340 AWHP on a dynojet. Once I do that....I will travel down the road to a friends shop and toss it on the Mustang for comparisons sake--all on the same day.

I know most guys are pushing 24-25 lbs. of boost or more on these turbos.....another reason they don't last long. Not really a point of interest for me. I know that all it takes is one run....but if you can't run it consistently and it's a "one run wonder,"

Had I known anything about the compressor nuts possibility to come loose I would have had it safety wired, or at least been aware. That turbo would still be kicking otherwise.

But, the turbo kicking the bucket has opened some new doors, so I guess I'll see what that does.

 

[SBstar]

That's the other thing I suppose, I shouldn't "have" to run more then 21psi apparently. But if it comes down to it I could try another 1-2 psi. I crushed the bov yesterday, hoping that it won't be a leak spot anymore and that might help a tad. I also found that my t-case was/is still leaking from the yolk area. I put in a new "recall" yolk kit and I'm hoping that fixes the leak issue as I just put a brand new seal in there. With a 3+ hour drive this coming weekend I want no leaks from that area! I also started scrolling through some of Dave's old posts when he first cracked 11's trying to find a few more ideas to gain a bit. Honestly, I think the biggest part of dropping another .25 is getting more passes in and getting that pass with the perfect shift points combined with a good 60 ft.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Rain in NJ, tracks have been closed all weekend. Looks like Im most likely not running until september now. Picked up a parts car yesterday that has a brand new MHI E3 16g turbo. That's alot of temptation to resist swapping the cartridge before next time out as it's pretty much an instant drop into the 10's as my season is drifting away. I took a full time job working nights, so Wed and Friday T&T are out, I can only run on sundays from now on.

 

[SBstar]

Bummer Nate! We're getting the same rain here though it seems. I'd like to tell you to resist and keep the 14b though, but it seems you have more fun with the 16g stuff? I have to admit the urge to get a 16g for next year is starting to bite me as well. But that also motivates me to at least hit 11's this year before I do it.

 

[pneumo]

Yeah, the compressor nut ate my 14b too. It has right hand threads on the old 14b, while the 16g and 20g have left hand threads. I like to use a little Blue loctite now.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Bummer Nate! We're getting the same rain here though it seems. I'd like to tell you to resist and keep the 14b though, but it seems you have more fun with the 16g stuff? I have to admit the urge to get a 16g for next year is starting to bite me as well. But that also motivates me to at least hit 11's this year before I do it.

Yup, it's hard to resist going from 111mph to 120+ mph with about 15 minutes of work before the nitrous. Beyond record chasing, the car is obviously more fun running tens.

 

[DJ23GSX]

Yup, it's hard to resist going from 111mph to 120+ mph with about 15 minutes of work before the nitrous. Beyond record chasing, the car is obviously more fun running tens.

Come on man you have yet to make a clean 14b pass and you figured out some of your issues arent you curious what it can do now? I know I am


On a side note I just replaced my stock downpipe and cat with an Apexi cat delete one and all I can say is WOW what a difference that made. Ever since I put the 7cm turbine housing on the 14b my boost was falling from 21psi to 15psi by redline no matter how many shims I put on the stock actuator or how many cranks I put on the boost controller. The stock wastegate was blowing wide open in the upper rpms and would drop boost to 0 when I ran it without the boost controller. I custom fit a 14psi Garrett actuator on with an adjustable arm and that helped a bit but now with the Apexi downpipe I only lose 2psi tops (if that even) by redline. The powerband is so much wider now and the turbo spools a good 800rpms sooner. I also dropped in some brand new 680's to match my keydiver chip and after leaning out the safc I'm seeing 4-5* more timing across the entire powerband over my previous tune on the 560's. She pulls very strong now but I'm scared to take it to the track with the stock clutch

 

[1990AWD]

I've never posted here, but I figure I'll submit what I have done so far with my 14b.

Bought the GSR-4 bone stock minus the exhaust and it ran a 15.2, this spring I ran a 14.5@92 with nothing changed but some maintanence and seat time. This was at 15psi.

I now have the fuel system and ECMLink to run 20psi and yesterday I did a [email protected]. The car is still on the stock smic and I see 200*F at the throttle body by the end of the run. Oh, and this is on stock clutch with a race weight of ~3200 lbs.

I have a ETS FMIC coming and a new clutch for when I need it, and I'm going to do some more weight reduction and low 13s are easily within reach.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Nice Steve! Good start! Wow....down to 8 psi and still have traction issues.....hmmmmm.....how long are you heating them up in the burnout box? You need a solid 4-8 seconds to put heat in them. That could be it. If you can get it to launch at full boost, rather than the staged or stepped boost control you are talking about, you will only be faster in the end. Phantom Grip is cheap and it works as well, especially for drag racing. Do you have an AWD left side axle in there? Another way to help launches. Also, custom made traction bars that help keep the front lower a-arms from causing a toe out situation on the launch will also help further.

I started out with 1st gear burnouts and it definitely wasn't putting enough heat into them. After the first couple runs, I started doing 2nd gear burnouts, basically locked the parking brake and let her rip for a good 8-10 seconds then dropped the brake and rolled it out of the box until it grabbed. I definitely think there's alot of room for improvement by practicing the technique. I was probably a little optimistic with the launch RPM, too. I might try dropping it down a bit next time.

I'd definitely like to stay with full boost throughout the whole pass if I can manage to improve the 60' times and avoid spinning all the way through 1st. I do have the AWD axle in it.

Like I said above, I do have an LSD insert and I'd like to get it in before I go back. When I was building the car, I threw in the '90 trans that came with the Laser I was originally building. I didn't want to waste my time installing the LSD if the trans was beat, so I figured I'd worry about it later. Well now this trans is shifting so buttery that I'd hate to drop it just for the diff. During the burnout the car was definitely smoking both sides equally, and it felt like they were both spinning through 1st, so I'm not sure how much good an LSD would do at this point anyway.

I'm thinking of fabbing some limiting straps for the front suspension. If you watch the vid, it's defintely lifting the nose and squatting the rear a good bit. I'm on AWD Pro-kits and AGXs in the back, I'm thinking something stiffer would help back there, but the catch 22 is that stiffer means shorter unless I go to coilovers. I may be able to borrow a friend's rear K-Sports next time to see if they help. I've also still got both sway bars in the car, not sure if they'd help or hurt with the launch (I've read opinions on both sides).

As far as me not making any more power after 21 psi. Keep in mind, I've only run the stock side mount, one that had larger inlet/outlet(useless IMHO,) and the EVO FMIC. I was HEATSOAKING the living hell out of it as previously talked about with my inconsistent trap speeds. You could feel the car lay down once in 4th gear around 1000ft. Seems like everything went to slow motion.

So, it's good to hear that more boost means more power....however, more power on the dyno is not comparable to running down the track. Might make more power on paper at a standstill, but fighting air and drag of the pavement might cause that "gain" to go unnoticed and work the turbo that much harder.

I know most guys are pushing 24-25 lbs. of boost or more on these turbos.....another reason they don't last long. Not really a point of interest for me. I know that all it takes is one run....but if you can't run it consistently and it's a "one run wonder,"

I know where you're coming from with the heatsoak. My old setup on the SMIC was beautiful on the dyno, zero knock with the aggressive stock 1G timing and pretty lean AFRs. At the track, different story. Little bit of knock in 2nd, more in 3rd, and tons in 4th. I have an old TMO log I'll post from that setup, pretty hysterical. Even still, I trapped higher with more boost. Basically, the more it could do down low the better I guess. Incidentally, do you log your car?

With the current setup, it's a different ballgame. I've got my friend's old FMIC that made 708whp, charge temps never, ever go anything over ambient on the dyno or the track. So basically it's just hit choke flow and hold it there. I don't really think I'd be able to get any more boost out of it if I tried, from the logs it's just hitting peak flow and flatlining basically at the same point where it hits full boost. I agree that going crazy to push more out of it is only going to shorten it's life. I more or less just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of it without pushing it too far.

 

[DJ23GSX]

I know where you're coming from with the heatsoak. My old setup on the SMIC was beautiful on the dyno, zero knock with the aggressive stock 1G timing and pretty lean AFRs. At the track, different story. Little bit of knock in 2nd, more in 3rd, and tons in 4th. I have an old TMO log I'll post from that setup, pretty hysterical. Even still, I trapped higher with more boost. Basically, the more it could do down low the better I guess. Incidentally, do you log your car?
.

I had the same problem with my old car with a fmic. I could pound on it all the way to the track in any gear without knock but as soon as I ran down the track 3rd and 4th gear would knock . I guess all the idling for long periods of time in the staging lane makes everything a bit hot. From the conversation I had with Phil at the track a few years ago he never logged the car. I even offered him my datalogger for a run just cause I was so interested in seeing it but he didn't accept my offer . He did seem very tempted to try it though

 

[Nate Crisman]

I've got my friend's old FMIC that made 708whp, charge temps never, ever go anything over ambient on the dyno or the track. So basically it's just hit choke flow and hold it there. I don't really think I'd be able to get any more boost out of it if I tried, from the logs it's just hitting peak flow and flatlining basically at the same point where it hits full boost. I agree that going crazy to push more out of it is only going to shorten it's life. I more or less just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of it without pushing it too far.

I'd love to see this log and the details on this FMIC core. My air/water isn't performing that well and Im considering going back to an air/air. The liquid intercooler puts out 50* AIT at the starting line (on a 90* day), but is well over 110*F at the traps.

 

[pneumo]

I started out with 1st gear burnouts and it definitely wasn't putting enough heat into them. After the first couple runs, I started doing 2nd gear burnouts, basically locked the parking brake and let her rip for a good 8-10 seconds then dropped the brake and rolled it out of the box until it grabbed. I definitely think there's alot of room for improvement by practicing the technique. I was probably a little optimistic with the launch RPM, too. I might try dropping it down a bit next time.

I'd definitely like to stay with full boost throughout the whole pass if I can manage to improve the 60' times and avoid spinning all the way through 1st. I do have the AWD axle in it.

Like I said above, I do have an LSD insert and I'd like to get it in before I go back. When I was building the car, I threw in the '90 trans that came with the Laser I was originally building. I didn't want to waste my time installing the LSD if the trans was beat, so I figured I'd worry about it later. Well now this trans is shifting so buttery that I'd hate to drop it just for the diff. During the burnout the car was definitely smoking both sides equally, and it felt like they were both spinning through 1st, so I'm not sure how much good an LSD would do at this point anyway.

I'm thinking of fabbing some limiting straps for the front suspension. If you watch the vid, it's defintely lifting the nose and squatting the rear a good bit. I'm on AWD Pro-kits and AGXs in the back, I'm thinking something stiffer would help back there, but the catch 22 is that stiffer means shorter unless I go to coilovers. I may be able to borrow a friend's rear K-Sports next time to see if they help. I've also still got both sway bars in the car, not sure if they'd help or hurt with the launch (I've read opinions on both sides).

Steve, I think your 60' times are hurt by the AWD rear suspension since it's heavier than the stock FWD rear suspension. You simply have more weight in the back. The Prokits aren't that stiff either. The cheap fix is to get some ebay coilover sleeves and use your own choice of spring.

 

[Pirrofab]

Steve,
Have you tried using the spring spacers yet for the rear suspension available at really any parts store. napa, Carquest, Pepboys. Just jack up the rear to let the suspension hang and install the spacers. There are a few different types available. One that may work is the adjustable ones that have to metal brackets that hook inbetween two spring coils and you can adjust the amount of stiffness. However adjusting the adjusting the stiffness also adds height to the suspension. Your alignment may need to be readjusted and if you have to much rake on the front end you may have to launch it harder and higher in the rpms as the weight load on the front end increases. It may sound crazy but after all the weight youve removed from the entire car you could build a small weight box under the bumper in the front corners for ballast to help keep the front end digging. I know limiting straps would help keep the weight from transferring rearward but the ballast would keep weight on the tires.
Think how kiggly uses the fuel cell foward of the front axles to keep weight up front.