The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

I'm glad a few of us have actually made it to the track this year. Once again all those "crazy out there" setups have yet to show up and do anything, in fact they've even dissapeared from this thread yet again. I guess maybe, just maybe, we can include Nate in there with the out there setups and say one of them at least did something. But, I don't think his setup really fits with that crowd being stock motor stuff and all.

last time out on my only correct pass it went 11.87 @ 111.8 - [email protected] - 1.537. It was a shakedown run with crap for tune and a weak launch, but hey, it went down the track to an 11. Next run was a staging/timing error due to creeping through beams. 3rd run again staging/timing error and I burned 2 valves due to a tuning error w/ nitrous kit. The car has been apart since that day waiting to get a head fixed.

That was with a 14b, stock 2g head and stock 2g cams, pump E85, and a frankenstein bottom end that made 180psi of compression (2.0L 9:1 manley pistons/eagle rods). The only "crazy out there" part of the car in this stage is the air/water IC, fuel cell, and the weight loss. Most everything else is the same stuff many other guys are using.. 15" slicks, dsmlink, open dp, cold air intake, completely stock driveline.

Back in May I'd gone 11.7@110 on the 14b with a "race" head/cams/valvetrain (that Im going to say isn't worth very much performance on my car) and had pretty much the same situation with blowing it up due to a tuning issue w/ the nitrous kit on the third full run.

Wish I had better results this season with the 14b, but I'v made some costly mistakes and hurt two cyl heads. I'v been very busy with house/family stuff this summer and just haven't been able to get one of the heads repaired and put the car together for more attempts. Besides, it's been 90*F+ every day in NJ, even if the car was together, it wouldn't be running much faster off the bottle w/ 14b anyway.

Soon I'll be back...likely give the 14b more chances.

 

[Phil1320]

Phil this is why I like picking your brain. I knew there was somthing different between the heat wrap and heat tape just wasn't quite sure. What other little tips and tricks do you have? Have you personally tried the homemade rear lower control arms yet to further reduce weight? Its something else I've been considering but the angle of the ball joint with the homemade lower arms just looks to severe where as the factory arms are more straight up and down.

Brad- Comments like that should either be left to yourself or be taken to pms. This thread doesn't need it and neither does the forum. Take the crap elsewhere.

With the outlet elbow/j-pipe so close to the exhaust manifold, to me, it makes sense to try to keep heat out....on the lower I/C as well......especially if you have a wastegate dump that runs right next to it. The downdraft J-pipe idea I like for the main reason that it gets the outlet away from the exhaust manifold. I don't see any "gains" coming from that change however due to the route.

I've got a few things that I used to do for small gains but it depends on the current state of your build if any of them are still applicable.

I have not done the homemade rear lower arms. They look killer and I'd be interested, but I'm having a hard time using any of that stuff to be honest. Mainly because I'm afraid of a failure. I do however have the rear Ingalls upper arms---the second gen version. I have the Polk front lower arms that will be on the car when it goes back together.

^thanks

I'm glad a few of us have actually made it to the track this year. Once again all those "crazy out there" setups have yet to show up and do anything, in fact they've even dissapeared from this thread yet again. I guess maybe, just maybe, we can include Nate in there with the out there setups and say one of them at least did something. But, I don't think his setup really fits with that crowd being stock motor stuff and all.

I finally ordered my parts for my t-case. I've been crazy busy with work, training for the last 10 days straight. Plus it's been mid 90's with 90+% humidity so racing is out of the question anyways. I do want to get out at least once before the shootout racing though.

Yeah, me too. I'd agree about Nate's set up. It's got a couple unique pieces, but still very "normal" I guess is the word. 11.7 is still moving whether an optimal run or not....

Cool, so you will run again this year?

I hear ya on that. Its been just miserable here. Fixed a section of hacked harness and wired in some factory plugs where the previous owned had hacked them off. Thats about all i've accomplished in the last few days haha.



Same here, took the car out to do some wot pulls in a closed course in mexico and had a brake line blow out. That was a little more then sketchy...

But overall everything is getting buttoned up and long as it holds together i should be hitting the track in the next few days.

Wow, that's nut's....glad you and the car made it through unscathed.

Good luck!

Soon I'll be back...likely give the 14b more chances.

Give yourself more credit! 11.7 is still super quick in 14b land. It's the quickest 14b pass of 2011 And, the best part is you know there's more left. I'm sure you want a nice full pass on the NOS too....

Good luck!

 

[Nate Crisman]

you know what, 11.7 is still pretty decent. The ET isn't quite as quick as I'd hoped or expected (see as it went 11.1 on the 16g with only 2 gears) but the MPH has been very dissapointing even for an automatic. i had hoped to see 115mph which would ET in the 11.2's. Still feel my engine combo is down on power compared to Pneumo and possibly even Phil1320. Granted I haven't worked out ideal shift points, got the tune maxed out, and my Air/Water ic isn't working out as well as it could or should with 115*F temps at the trap.

There's certainly more to gain...maybe a couple tenths from tuning and maybe mph or two if I improved the air/water to hold the AIT down in the 50-60's. Maybe 1mph moving to methanol? Still think the 14b no/nos record is out of reach this season for me with the budget I have left.

Nitrous record...as soon as I get a clean pass with the spray on the whole time...that record is mine. I'v made the judgement to myself after comparing the two videos, logs, and timeslips.....that last botched NOS pass was an 11.2 ET. That was boost only launch and first gear. Nitrous on 2-3-4 "partially". It was on/off/on/off 8 or 9 times during the run due to hitting rpm/load/knock safety limits in dsmlink software. With 3* of timing in 3rd and 2* of timing in 4th....and down one cyl at some point during the run. 11.2 with all those issues, you can see that a 10.8 on a clean run is "in the bag". It's just getting the tune/setup/circumstances to line up and allow that clean run. That's the game.

 

[Steve93Talon]

Nitrous record...as soon as I get a clean pass with the spray on the whole time...that record is mine... 11.2 with all those issues, you can see that a 10.8 on a clean run is "in the bag".

Joe's nitrous record is 10.61 @ 131, the 10.8 was all 14b.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Joe's nitrous record is 10.61 @ 131, the 10.8 was all 14b.

yeah, typo on my part. Honestly, once I get the nitrous system online the whole run and the tune fairly straight, I have somewhat unlimited power potential. The jetting is for 115hp right now, but I have intervals up to 200hp in my box of nitrous supplies. If the car runs 112mph on the motor alone and 11.7. with the 115 shot that's in there now spraying the whole time 2-4 gears it should runs 122mph and ET in the 10.8 range. one jump up in jetting would take the record. Jumping to 175 could produce a mid 10, 200 a low 10.

The car has frankly, all the traction and efficiency it can use. simply needs more power and 100% of that power will go to the ground. If/when I can beat Joe's 10.61 ET, my car will likely run only 123-124mph compared to his 131.

Screenshot of the log from my last nitrous pass w/ 115hp. Burned valves on cyl #3...this was likely done on only 3 cyl firing:

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Notice the time selection from first sign of VSS to when I dropped throttle as I cross the timing beams at traps. 11.3 seconds. Actual timeslips seem to vary about .05sec compared to the log times with the slip being a bit quicker than the log. Im guestimating it was an 11.25 ET give or take. The tune was a complete failure: see the green line..FPS...that's the nitrous system turning on/off/on/off over and over. Between knock sensor going nuts and me pulling 6* out of the secondary timing map...the car was running down the track on 1 to 3* of timing. obviously not an ideal run and it was within .6 of the record.

 

[RipperXX]

^ Holy shit, you resolve all those issues and that things going to haul some ass!

 

[SBstar]

Yeah seriously Nate, don't mock any 14b 11's pass. Especially when you know it's going to be able to do so much more. I'm looking forward to seeing you get it figured out.

 

[Phil1320]

Bottom end disassembly this weekend.......

 

[91stocker]

Bottom end disassembly this weekend.......

woot progress


My car on the other hand, is bound and determined to not make it to the track this year

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Glad to hear your tearing into it Phil!

I made it to the track a few times this year, I don't remember if I posted on this thread or not though. I've gotten a great MPH, best of 113.63 but still have a terrible ET, best is 14.155. I'm planning on getting a Quaife LSD in August or September and then I'll go back to the track and take off with both wheels for once!

 

[Pirrofab]

Glad to hear your tearing into it Phil!

I made it to the track a few times this year, I don't remember if I posted on this thread or not though. I've gotten a great MPH, best of 113.63 but still have a terrible ET, best is 14.155. I'm planning on getting a Quaife LSD in August or September and then I'll go back to the track and take off with both wheels for once!

Wow you have some top end mph! get your 60's down and the magic will follow. I remember running my 14.2 at 101mph and all my dads old muscle car friends were scratching there head poking fun at me because I gave all my runs away due to a crappy 60'ft.

 

[Phil1320]

woot progress


My car on the other hand, is bound and determined to not make it to the track this year

a little here and there....

Oh bummer.....I know that scenario

Glad to hear your tearing into it Phil!

I made it to the track a few times this year, I don't remember if I posted on this thread or not though. I've gotten a great MPH, best of 113.63 but still have a terrible ET, best is 14.155. I'm planning on getting a Quaife LSD in August or September and then I'll go back to the track and take off with both wheels for once!

ET will come with seat time.....trap speed is nice

 

[Steve93Talon]

5 weeks straight now of no track. First, rain. Then closed for an event. Then 110F. Then rain. Now another event this weekend. Hopefully the weather will be decent next week, schedule shows they're open for T&T. In the meantime, I finally got around to waxing the car and drove it to work today. Here are some pics with my buddy's bone stock 50k '94.

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[Phil1320]

Jeez.....that's sucks. In time I suppose. Both cars look sick

 

[Nate Crisman]

I'm planning to slap a head on my car Monday night and hopefully hit the track Wednesday night for a last attempt at the "14b w/ n2o record".

No changes or mechanical improvements, simply trying to get a single pass with nitrous without making a tuning mistake and blowing up the top end halfway through a pass.

Then I'm goin on vacation till September and putting an e3 16g on it when I come home. So this is the last hurrah for 14b in 2011 for me I'd say.

 

[RipperXX]

Shit, get that done with so we can see wtf happens when you strap on a E3 to that crazy ass car of yours.

 

[Phil1320]

Shit, get that done with so we can see wtf happens when you strap on a E3 to that crazy ass car of yours.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....ok then...


Do it up Nate...Good luck!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Shit, get that done with so we can see wtf happens when you strap on a E3 to that crazy ass car of yours.

I had an E3 16g turbo on it last year that went 11.1@121 on boost and 10.6@129 w/ spray. Granted, it made one single run on boost alone and I didn't have 2nd or 4th gears, so the pass was far from ideal, but it is what it is. On nitrous, I made all of 3 passes all 10.7 or 10.6 around 129mph. That was with a "small" single fogger nitrous hit.

I'm fairly certain it will run about 11-13mph quicker with the 16g vs 14b. If that proves true, it should run about 123-125mph on boost alone, which should be good for about 10.6 to 10.8ET. Seeing it go 11.1@121 on a messed up pass last year with 150lb more weight, taller tires, only 2 gears, and less optimized engine....I think 10.7@124 is a realistic ballpark expectation.

With the nitrous on, at 115-125hp hit, we should be looking at 135+mph and all bets are off for ET. Could be 10.3's, could be 9.9's, could be blown up at 660' (that's been my luck) I haven't had much luck with the nitrous this season due to my own mistakes in tuning/setup, but the potential is certainly there. I just have to get the damn car down the track cleanly with no issues.

On a side note, Im starting to think about doing a different chassis for 2012. Possibly something "tube frame" in the mannor of a kit car / locost with open top. Ideally being a dimensional copy of a 1g so that all the suspension/brakes/chassis/driveline are "bolt in" for the most part. Imagine a convertable 1g awd mixed with elements of 60's front engine dragster.

 

[pneumo]

Here's an interesting thought. What's the nitrous limit?
Nitrous limit ??

 

[Nate Crisman]

Here's an interesting thought. What's the nitrous limit?
Nitrous limit ??

I would assume it's at the point of exhaust restriction in the 7cm housing. Iv Said it before in this thread: I believe that identical max performance can be attained with 14b/n20 as with 16g/n20. The only difference is compressor flow rate, which you can make up for with a bit more nitrous flow rate. Seems E316g makes about 100hp more than 14b on average.

If a e3 16g maxes out on power with say 165hp of spray, the 14b combo can take a 265 shot and run about the same.

 

[Steve93Talon]

I would assume it's at the point of exhaust restriction in the 7cm housing.

I'd only buy that if the wastegate were forced shut. Once the gate is opened, the 7cm housing no longer becomes the sole restriction, rather the gate size/flow is the restriction. What's to stop you from putting a 60mm gate on there with a 1 bar spring? In theory, you'd be bypassing a ton of the restriction of the 05H wheel and 7cm housing.

Another thought - Have you considered throwing a Pacesetter style non-turbo header on the car and jacking up the spray? Can probably easily claim the 4G NT record. Would make tuning easier than mixed power adders, too.

 

[RipperXX]

^ Or what about taking a T3 exhaust housing and putting it on the Evo III 16g? 10cm2 should really help drop the backpressure, and I doubt the lag would matter since it's a drag car, with nitrious. I only bring this up because I wasn't even tracking this as an option until recently when FP put up the td05h 20g's with T3 housings for sale. So makes since to me you could bolt up the exhaust housing from one of them to the 14b or E3 and drop the exhaust backpressure a good bit.

 

[Steve93Talon]

^ Or what about taking a T3 exhaust housing and putting it on the Evo III 16g? 10cm2 should really help drop the backpressure, and I doubt the lag would matter since it's a drag car, with nitrious. I only bring this up because I wasn't even tracking this as an option until recently when FP put up the td05h 20g's with T3 housings for sale. So makes since to me you could bolt up the exhaust housing from one of them to the 14b or E3 and drop the exhaust backpressure a good bit.

You still have to push all the exhaust backpressure through the same tiny TD05H turbine wheel, I'd think going to the larger housing would be negligible compared to using a supersized gate. Another twist would be to use an 06H turbine wheel...

 

[RipperXX]

eh yea you got a point there, I guess that or clip the turbine...I suppose your huge gate option and a TD06 turbine would give the most flow...

 

[Phil1320]

I run the 40mm Tial on a stainless 02 housing....I would assume it can't get much better than that as far as flow on the exhaust side....