The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[SBstar]

The stock hood weighed 44lbs (standing on scale method) iirc, cutting out metal saved maybe 5lbs total. For ref my carbon fiber hood weighs about 10-12lbs. It's definately worth the investment, especially with how hard it is to get weight off the front of the car.

The lightest street 14b car depends on your definition of street legal. I think I've stated it before but mine will be streetable and I think I can get it to 2700lbs this year. But without bumpers and with the doors gutted I'm not sure I should consider mine street legal. I'd bet with lightweight parts you could get it down under 2600 and still be considered streetable by most dsmers standards. But you're going to be spending money on things like lightweight wheels, carbon fiber/fiberglass hatch (w/glass), aluminum driveshaft, lightweight engine and flywheel and clutch.....list could go on.

But going all out is going to require getting the weight way down imho. Phil's car is what 2500ish w/driver currently and looking to be around 2200?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I saw a comparison many years ago between a stock hood, a gutted stock hood, and a carbon fiber hood (and possibly even a gutted carbon fiber hood). I can't seem to find it now though. The stock 1g hood weighs in around 45 lbs but I don't recall that much weight can be shed by cutting out the under-hood reinforcement.

I have a fiberglass hood on my 1g that also includes the popup covers...it's 13lb with 6 DZUZ fasteners included.

I think the Lexan door windows, quarters and rear hatch will save a LOT of weight. I've already got my door windows removed. I still have a bit left to do to the car for weight reduction before I get the Lexan.

I'm pretty sure lexan in 1/8" thickness is just about half the weight of the stock part (as per Percy's Speedglass). I know the side windows only save 1-2lb per side and the 1/4 windows barely save a few ounces.

Phil1320 has a lexan/FG rear hatch...hopefully he will chime in on the weight specifics of that item, as that is the heaviest piece of glass that is also the easiest to change and least effects the utility of the car....The hatch metal itself is also pretty beefy, HairyGlass out of Florida has 1g fiberglass hatchs for $260.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

My carbon hood weighs 17lbs! What the f did i buy!? WTF

Damn.., 11.4 in 2004

 

[SBstar]

The rear hatch weighs about 25lbs. with about 25lbs worth of glass. I smashed out a back hatch glass before, item fell from the rafters, anyways the glass cleaned up and thrown in a box weighed 25lbs. If you go through franks custom fiberglass a full pin on hatch weighs 7lbs, I'd assume a bolt-on one would be under 15lbs. so you could save 10-15lbs there. And I don't remember the thickness but someone once stated their lexan rear glass weighed 7lbs as well so figure you save another 18lbs there, 15 to play it safe. Sooo 25-30 lbs saved off the rear alone by doing that stuff.

The side windows are 10lbs a piece and I'm pretty sure their replacements are 5 or less.

 

[1SloEvo]

That's some good info on the weight reduction that you guys have. I really want to shave weight on the hood and the hatch/glass/lexan! I just don't have the coin to fork up $400 for a carbon fiber hood right now. Time to get creative on that. As for that hatch, when I get the money, I might pick up that fiberglass hatch as well! Hopefully Phil will chime in on the weight savings from the Lexan! Would love to hear his info as well.

Oh yeah...on the street legal thing...my car will still be registered, insured and driven occasionally. Probably just as a weekend fun car and to car meets. So it will still be "street legal" and hopefully run some decent times.

 

[Nate Crisman]

My carbon hood weighs 17lbs! What the f did i buy!? WTF

Damn.., 11.4 in 2004

Your carbon hood must have a fiberglass underbrace layer so it's strong enough to stay down and flat with the stock latch. My FG hood is a single floppy layer and it would likely catch air and split if it wasn't attached at 6 spots around the edges.

That 11.4 in 2004......the car was also built for a documented $2004 for the Grassroots Motorsport $2004 Challenge. (teams can spend no more than two thousand and four bucks on a car and all modifications, not including labor). I had to account for every single part down to hose clamps, quarts of oil, spark plugs, gaskets, and hose. AND the car had to compete in a "carshow" and autox/roadcourse hotlap on that same $2004 of mods, so you couldn't just spend it all on dragstrip work.

That's some good info on the weight reduction that you guys have. I really want to shave weight on the hood and the hatch/glass/lexan! I just don't have the coin to fork up $400 for a carbon fiber hood right now. Time to get creative on that. As for that hatch, when I get the money, I might pick up that fiberglass hatch as well! Hopefully Phil will chime in on the weight savings from the Lexan! Would love to hear his info as well.

One thing to keep in mind with fiberglas vs CF: CF looks good with the gelcoat, but Fiberglass needs to be painted or it looks like ass. Figure the cost difference in paintwork.

The rear hatch weighs about 25lbs. with about 25lbs worth of glass. I smashed out a back hatch glass before, item fell from the rafters, anyways the glass cleaned up and thrown in a box weighed 25lbs. If you go through franks custom fiberglass a full pin on hatch weighs 7lbs, I'd assume a bolt-on one would be under 15lbs. so you could save 10-15lbs there. And I don't remember the thickness but someone once stated their lexan rear glass weighed 7lbs as well so figure you save another 18lbs there, 15 to play it safe. Sooo 25-30 lbs saved off the rear alone by doing that stuff.

The side windows are 10lbs a piece and I'm pretty sure their replacements are 5 or less.

Im going to have to pull my side windows and weigh them to know exactly, but I think iM simply going to eliminate the "roll down" function and make a solid bracket to hold them in. My rollup windows are damn near worthless anyway as the tracks are messed up and the window gets jammed 1/4" before it's totally closed (and lets rain water in all the time). Might as well remove all the moving parts/tracks and solid mount the glass.

Just checked Frankscustomfiberglass.com.....1G FG hatch is only $175 !!! Significantly less money than I thought, I think I may pick one up and see how much a half sheet of flat lexan is. (no way I'm paying big bucks for the formed Percy Speedglass at $400 each!)

 

[pneumo]

I picked up a carbon rear hatch with plain lexan window a few months ago and it saved 18 pounds over the stock piece, which already had the plastic interior trim and wiper removed. It would've saved more weigh except I put the stock wing back on so it looks normal and I wanted to keep the 3rd brake light. I also removed both hatch struts (2 pounds) and use a pvc pipe (4 ounces) to prop up the hatch. The center piece of the rear wing weighs 5 pounds.

I also gutted a stock hood almost completely and it saved around 10 pounds. I kept enough material around the edges and latch so it was strong and stiff enough.

There's plenty of stuff that can be removed with little inconvenience.
Spare tire is 35 pounds. Can of 'Fix-A-Flat' is 8 ounces.
Stock stereo and speakers- 15 pounds. iPod and earbuds- 2 ounces?

I still drive my Talon on the street, although it pushes the limits of what's considered 'street legal'. In fact I've been driving it to work daily for the past 2 weeks while repairing my Laser.

 

[Phil1320]

I don't have weight on my hatch. It's a thin layer like Nate's hood from Squidskins in Canada. My window is the ProGlass piece that is shaped and contoured like the factory rear hatch glass rather than just tossing a piece of flat lexan on it---this really doesn't matter anymore, but I had planned on running it on the street in my factory hatch when I first bought it. I'll try to get a total weight for you guys sometime soon. Honestly, I've had zero time to touch the car. It's just sitting.


My hood is heavy. I used to have a carbon fiber one made by Charisma Autotech......crappy fit, crappy finish, but was light....it incorporated some bracing, but not all the bracing like the factory hood. My current fiberglass hood has all the bracing plus the cutouts where the flip ups were are molded in....all heavy stuff. Nate easily has the lightest DSM hood ever made.

 

[91eagle_tsi_awd]

I have a Frankscustom carbon fiber hood on my 1g. That thing weighs nothing. I would estimate it to weigh about 6-8 pounds. Nate last I heard he wasn't in business anymore. Not really sure if that is true though.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I have a Frankscustom carbon fiber hood on my 1g. That thing weighs nothing. I would estimate it to weigh about 6-8 pounds. Nate last I heard he wasn't in business anymore. Not really sure if that is true though.

Frank's Custom Fiberglass is where my FG hood came from, and if my memory from 2005 serves me, Frank told me the CF and FG versions of the same hoods he makes only vary by about 1-2lb with the CF version being lighter. (that's assuming it's a single layer with no bracing at all like mine). EST6-8lb is realistically 10-11lb. I was all set to snag one of the $175 FG hatches, but now I see Frank's has moved from PA down to NC. He was in driving distance before, but now that shipping is involved, Im going to have to really weight the cost vs benefit. Especially if as Pneumo says, that FG/Lexan hatch only saved 18lb

As far as business: I sold DSMotorsport in June 2007 and got out of cars at the time. By spring of 2009, I got back into cars and started a new business parting out DSM/GVR4 cars: dsmpartout.com

So I'm back...but doing it differently this time.

 

[1SloEvo]

I think to be one of the fastest 14b powered cars around, you'll have to do the weight removal, even if it is 18lb for a hatch that's going to cost ~$500 to build (including the hatch, Lexan and shipping). I'll have it eventually. I might even get the hatch and hood and wait and do the Lexan at a later date. Then again, it's twice the work with installing/removing the glass, so I might just wait.

 

[Phil1320]

My hatch was well over $400 shipped from Canada....and my hatch window was $295 plus shipping. Rear 1/4 windows were $195 plus shipping. Door lexan will be $300 plus shipping......it adds up fast once the free weight reduction is done.

I think to be one of the fastest 14b powered cars around, you'll have to do the weight removal, even if it is 18lb for a hatch that's going to cost ~$500 to build (including the hatch, Lexan and shipping). I'll have it eventually. I might even get the hatch and hood and wait and do the Lexan at a later date. Then again, it's twice the work with installing/removing the glass, so I might just wait.

No questions asked. For sure weight reduction is the key....don't care if you put 400 to the wheels....

 

[Nate Crisman]

At $500-$600 realistic cost for the light hatch, lexan, shipping, and install materials to save 18lb, I think the money is better spent on maybe those $790 TCE light brake kits that are partially rotating weight and all unsprung weight. Even still...I think that $500-$600 would yeald more results if put into power production than the .018 of ET you'd see from removing 18lb off the hatch. $500-$600 could pay for a 11:1 compression pistons & machine work, a really nice air/water ic setup, or a complete fuel system upgrade for alky.

To match 18lb of weight loss, it only takes like 3hp to make the same .018 of ET and .2mph. I'd guess that Alky fuel, water ic, or 3pt of compression are worth more than a couple hp

My #'s for theory using online hp/et/weight/trap calculator:

2500lb - 11.500 - 118.5mph = 325hp
2482lb - 11.500 - 118.5mph = 322hp
2482lb - 11.475 - 118.8mph = 325hp
Conclusion: 18lb of weight is about 3hp equivelence

I'm officially NOT doing the hatch now unless the price is about half and the weight loss is actually double. $250-$300 for 36lb of weight loss might be reasonable.

 

[tkelly27]

There's plenty of stuff that can be removed with little inconvenience.
Spare tire is 35 pounds. Can of 'Fix-A-Flat' is 8 ounces.

AAA card = only a few grams : )

 

[SBstar]

As it's been stated the hatches come in all shapes and colors (weights). I wish my buddy would've weighed his carbon fiber one, perhaps I'll get him to although it has stock glass, but my glass weight should be close to accurate. The pin-on one from Franks was reported as 7lbs by a dsmer, this is PIN-ON meaning it does not bolt on at all, it's simply a sheet of fiberglass shaped like the hatch with no bracing at all. That alone would save 18lbs from the stock hatch although I doubt it would hold the stock glass. As for the lexan I listed it as 7lbs but I can't find what thickness that was or find the post on dsmtalk where it was listed at that. But if we venture that it weighs half of the stock glass that's another 12.5lbs lost with equates to 30.5lbs lost if you go with that particular hatch. I'm guessing Dave has a hatch with the stock style bracing which makes it much heavier.

 

[pneumo]

Yes the carbon hatch I got has stock style bracing. It uses the stock hinges and latch, no dzus fasteners are needed, no hoodpins needed. Now I'm thinking about trimming the bracing out and it's all your fault!

There's another bonus for saving weight beyond the ET improvement and that is to reduce stress on the driveline. I'm still using the same transfer case I got almost ten years ago, and I've pushed my car hard, launched it hard with wheel hopping stiff sidewall drag radials. I may have jinxed myself here, but I've seen slower cars break more and they were all bragging about being full weight.

Saving weight has a snowball effect. The more weight saved lets you save even more weight when choosing tires, brakes and suspension components. How heavy do the control arms and subframes need to be when your car is 400 pounds lighter?

OEM small front brakes are ten pounds lighter than OEM twin piston big brakes. That's total weight for both sides. Aggressively resurfaced rotors might save another 1/2 pound. I don't know the weight savings of new vs worn brake pads.

 

[Phil1320]

There's another bonus for saving weight beyond the ET improvement and that is to reduce stress on the driveline.



OEM small front brakes are ten pounds lighter than OEM twin piston big brakes.

And, this is why I think I've never broken anything.....I mean anything.

I still have the original 1 pot OEM front brakes.....never needed to go to twins with all the weight out. My cars stops VERY well. Axxis pads, S/S lines, and ATE blue fluid.

 

[forcefed86]

I'm officially NOT doing the hatch now unless the price is about half and the weight loss is actually double. $250-$300 for 36lb of weight loss might be reasonable.

Thats how I always felt about them. IMO the best part about weight reduction is it's usually free!

Are there any track laws stating you need to run the hatch at all? I've seen quite a few cars in the all motor import class here that make runs with no hatch installed. That being said, I live in po-dunk and the rules aren't exactly enforced here! Assuming legality, whats to stop some one from running no windows/hatch and netting all around. That would save some serious weight. I doubt the aero effects will out weigh the weight loss at 14b trap speeds.

 

[91eagle_tsi_awd]

Frank's Custom Fiberglass is where my FG hood came from, and if my memory from 2005 serves me, Frank told me the CF and FG versions of the same hoods he makes only vary by about 1-2lb with the CF version being lighter. (that's assuming it's a single layer with no bracing at all like mine). EST6-8lb is realistically 10-11lb. I was all set to snag one of the $175 FG hatches, but now I see Frank's has moved from PA down to NC. He was in driving distance before, but now that shipping is involved, Im going to have to really weight the cost vs benefit. Especially if as Pneumo says, that FG/Lexan hatch only saved 18lb

As far as business: I sold DSMotorsport in June 2007 and got out of cars at the time. By spring of 2009, I got back into cars and started a new business parting out DSM/GVR4 cars: dsmpartout.com

So I'm back...but doing it differently this time.

I know about dsmpartout.com. I'm blue_gsx on njdsm.org . I was referring to Frank's custom fiberglass when I said I heard he was out of business.

Honestly I find it hard to believe that my hood weighs 10-11lbs. I think it's lighter. I can pick this thing up with one hand and toss if I wanted to. Few months ago I forgot to put my hoodpins back on and the hinges were not bolted on because I currently have the engine out. I woke up one morning and went outside to see that my hood was located a few feet away from the car. Wind blew it off the car. I'm going to try to weigh it this weekend to get an actual number though. I'm curious to find out now.

 

[Nate Crisman]

I know about dsmpartout.com. I'm blue_gsx on njdsm.org . I was referring to Frank's custom fiberglass when I said I heard he was out of business.

Honestly I find it hard to believe that my hood weighs 10-11lbs. I think it's lighter. I can pick this thing up with one hand and toss if I wanted to. Few months ago I forgot to put my hoodpins back on and the hinges were not bolted on because I currently have the engine out. I woke up one morning and went outside to see that my hood was located a few feet away from the car. Wind blew it off the car. I'm going to try to weigh it this weekend to get an actual number though. I'm curious to find out now.

Hahaha I misread your post, I'm a tool. I thought you were saying I was out of business. Anyway...seems Franks Custom Fiberglass moved from Pa to Nc and is still in business as the site was updated in 2010.

My FG single layer hood is completely tossable too. no trouble picking it up one handed. It's still 13lb.

I hear weight #'s tossed around on the internet all the time, and they always seem to be exaggerated. Lightweight parts always seem so crazy light and heavy bulky steel stock parts seem so heavy, but the reality is the human perception is usually wrong when you want the light part to be extremely lighter.

Example: Weld wheels. Everyone thinks these weight sub 10lb each and are "stupid light". I have a few different Weld wheels in the shop right now. the 15x8" was over 14lb and the 15x3 "skinny" was over 10lb. I I had a set of Volk 15x7" wheels here a few months ago...they were 10.6lb on the same scale. From reading the internet, I bet you'll find people who think volks are half the weight of street wheels, when in reality, the difference isn't that huge when you consider they are $2000 wheels.

 

[SBstar]

Hahaha I misread your post, I'm a tool. I thought you were saying I was out of business. Anyway...

My FG single layer hood is completely tossable too. no trouble picking it up one handed. It's still 13lb.

I hear weight #'s tossed around on the internet all the time, and they always seem to be exaggerated. Lightweight parts always seem so crazy light and heavy bulky steel stock parts seem so heavy, but the reality is the human perception is usually wrong when you want the light part to be extremely lighter.

Example: Weld wheels. Everyone thinks these weight sub 10lb each and are "stupid light". I have a few different Weld wheels in the shop right now. the 15x8" was over 14lb and the 15x3 "skinny" was over 10lb. I I had a set of Volk 15x7" wheels here a few months ago...they were 10.6lb on the same scale. From reading the internet, I bet you'll find people who think volks are half the weight of street wheels, when in reality, the difference isn't that huge when you consider they are $2000 wheels.

I totally agree, you do hear some crazy numbers being tossed around. Which is why I always state that my weights were taken by me, using a not-so scientifically perfect method of standing on a scale while holding the part Or that I got the weight from someone else who "supposedly" weighed it.

 

[Phil1320]

Hahaha I misread your post, I'm a tool. I thought you were saying I was out of business. Anyway...

My FG single layer hood is completely tossable too. no trouble picking it up one handed. It's still 13lb.

I hear weight #'s tossed around on the internet all the time, and they always seem to be exaggerated. Lightweight parts always seem so crazy light and heavy bulky steel stock parts seem so heavy, but the reality is the human perception is usually wrong when you want the light part to be extremely lighter.

Example: Weld wheels. Everyone thinks these weight sub 10lb each and are "stupid light". I have a few different Weld wheels in the shop right now. the 15x8" was over 14lb and the 15x3 "skinny" was over 10lb. I I had a set of Volk 15x7" wheels here a few months ago...they were 10.6lb on the same scale. From reading the internet, I bet you'll find people who think volks are half the weight of street wheels, when in reality, the difference isn't that huge when you consider they are $2000 wheels.

Yeah I didn't think the Welds were that light....I mean, it is of course a domestic wheel. Even the 15 X 3 isn't under 10.....wow. A 15 X 7 Enkei RPF1 is 9.6 lbs. Most of the best domestic wheels can't match the build quality or the weight of the Japanese wheels. Forgeline, CCW, etc. are killer wheels, but in the same sizes, Racing Hart, Volk, and Gram Lights will be lighter always. Not like the domestic wheels I've listed are cheap either, in fact they are more than most of the Japanese wheels. My 16 X 7 Racing Harts match the weight of the 15" TE37's....but then theres a heavier tire as well.

For 15"...the Volk is it for the most part......they are about $446 a wheel from vividracing.com.....anyone want to donate?

I totally agree, you do hear some crazy numbers being tossed around. Which is why I always state that my weights were taken by me, using a not-so scientifically perfect method of standing on a scale while holding the part Or that I got the weight from someone else who "supposedly" weighed it.

I'll weigh my hood.....I'm gonna bet it's more than 20 lbs. My carbon fiber hood was 14 lbs.

 

[SBstar]

I'm going to pull my carbon fiber hood off and weigh it too. It's from GT-fabrications and feels light as a feather, but in reality it's probably closer to 11-12lbs like most others. It doesn't have much of the under bracing either though.

 

[Phil1320]

I'm going to pull my carbon fiber hood off and weigh it too. It's from GT-fabrications and feels light as a feather, but in reality it's probably closer to 11-12lbs like most others. It doesn't have much of the under bracing either though.

Nice, that's light. I won't be changing my hood for the 6 or so lbs. It took quite a bit of work to do my hood....adding the scoop and all.....and adding a bit of drag and weight......mostly for my future road race set up that is starting to take form now.....

 

[SBstar]

Nice, that's light. I won't be changing my hood for the 6 or so lbs. It took quite a bit of work to do my hood....adding the scoop and all.....and adding a bit of drag and weight......mostly for my future road race set up that is starting to take form now.....

As said, I'm not totally sure on weight yet, I'll get it today. But I have to figure in my headlight covers (1ga) and whatever some custom brackets that I have to make to hold them up will weigh. Your hood even if it is a little heavier is nice due to covering the headlight area, honestly wish I could afford to have a lightweight hood made like that, you're still saving 24lbs if it is 20!

I also read back and realized I had 3/4th a tank of gas in the car when it weighed 2910 w/me in it, so that's alot of gas weight that can be removed too! I should be able to get to 2700 no problems for this year, but even that is too heavy. I'm trying to find new and exciting ways to reduce weight, might pull out the hacksaw a little bit and post some results. Wheels/tires are going to be a big one in the future though.