The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Phil1320]

I think you need a some practice, could probably cut that time down a little, no?



Whoa, I didn't notice that. Def a great 1/8th time!

Just by a tick, but nonetheless...

 

[Nate Crisman]

I think you need a some practice, could probably cut that time down a little, no?

The problem is without a vacuum pump on the brakes, there is no way to stage and stall up an automatic car to get a perfect 60' and a good RT.

A: If I go in and light both bulbs, then go WOT as the opponent lights the stage bulb...most often the tree goes down within 1-2 seconds..and I need 5-7 seconds MORE to get up to 4000rpm/20+psi to leave under full power. Opponent is at the 1/8mile before I even launch.

B: If I light both bulbs and immediately go WOT and start to stall up...the opponent might take his sweet time staging (or be a clueless tool who can't stage)...and I hit 4000rpm/20psi before the tree goes down. If I try to keep holding it back the boost will run away up to 30/40psi within a second making the car creeps through the brakes and I red-light...usually doesn't even get a timeslip. wasted run.

c: If I light the pre-stage bulb, then start to stall up on the converter and attempt to bump into the stage bulb once on boost and opponent staged, vacuum & brake pressure is gone and the car just blows through the beams and red lights...no timeslip.


The only way to make this work is to put a vacuum pump on the brake booster and practice method C, stalling on the pre-stage bulb and bumping into the stage bulb under full boost/power. That's still relying on the footbrake to re-grip hold back maximum engine torque. It also relies on using boost control/rev limiters to set the launch rpm/boost levels...which I haven't even started to try and figure out.

For "record chasing" runs where all I care about is ET, I generally just do A...and let the other car win by 10 seconds. who cares, Im running for ET not a win light. Then I can concentrate on launching exactly at the right rpm/boost level for the hardest 60'.

 

[Phil1320]

The problem is without a vacuum pump on the brakes, there is no way to stage and stall up an automatic car to get a perfect 60' and a good RT.

A: If I go in and light both bulbs, then go WOT as the opponent lights the stage bulb...most often the tree goes down within 1-2 seconds..and I need 5-7 seconds MORE to get up to 4000rpm/20+psi to leave under full power. Opponent is at the 1/8mile before I even launch.

B: If I light both bulbs and immediately go WOT and start to stall up...the opponent might take his sweet time staging (or be a clueless tool who can't stage)...and I hit 4000rpm/20psi before the tree goes down. If I try to keep holding it back the boost will run away up to 30/40psi within a second making the car creeps through the brakes and I red-light...usually doesn't even get a timeslip. wasted run.

c: If I light the pre-stage bulb, then start to stall up on the converter and attempt to bump into the stage bulb once on boost and opponent staged, vacuum & brake pressure is gone and the car just blows through the beams and red lights...no timeslip.


The only way to make this work is to put a vacuum pump on the brake booster and practice method C, stalling on the pre-stage bulb and bumping into the stage bulb under full boost/power. That's still relying on the footbrake to re-grip hold back maximum engine torque. It also relies on using boost control/rev limiters to set the launch rpm/boost levels...which I haven't even started to try and figure out.

For "record chasing" runs where all I care about is ET, I generally just do A...and let the other car win by 10 seconds. who cares, Im running for ET not a win light. Then I can concentrate on launching exactly at the right rpm/boost level for the hardest 60'.

Wow, thats quite the process!

 

[Nate Crisman]

Yup. It's one of the downsides of automagic, that's for sure.

 

[Phil1320]

Congratz Shane! Awesome time!
Any plans to hit the track again this year? If you do I might have to put together a 14b setup to reclaim my position!

I was just reading this again and something hit me....me & Nate(moreso than me) have been quicker than you for some time now...is it that now a third AWD will be quicker that would bring you out to ''reclaim'' YOUR position?

Yup. It's one of the downsides of automagic, that's for sure.

Yikes, screw that Nate. Obviously, it's a fixable thing as Lucas runs his and wins races. I still have fun running other cars down the strip, gotta be able to react. I generally run better when I've got another car next to me to run.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Auto cars can be made to leave on the green, it just takes some work. 90% of all of the "tuning" I have done for the last few years has been for the staging procedure/starting line, not power down track. I almost never touch the main tune. That's the easy part.

 

[Phil1320]

Auto cars can be made to leave on the green, it just takes some work. 90% of all of the "tuning" I have done for the last few years has been for the staging procedure/starting line, not power down track. I almost never touch the main tune. That's the easy part.

Fair enough.....crazy stuff. A friend has an AT full weight streetcar that runs 10.50s. He does all his own tuning himself as well. I'll have to ask him about it.

 

[11secDSM]

The problem is without a vacuum pump on the brakes, there is no way to stage and stall up an automatic car to get a perfect 60' and a good RT.

A: If I go in and light both bulbs, then go WOT as the opponent lights the stage bulb...most often the tree goes down within 1-2 seconds..and I need 5-7 seconds MORE to get up to 4000rpm/20+psi to leave under full power. Opponent is at the 1/8mile before I even launch.

B: If I light both bulbs and immediately go WOT and start to stall up...the opponent might take his sweet time staging (or be a clueless tool who can't stage)...and I hit 4000rpm/20psi before the tree goes down. If I try to keep holding it back the boost will run away up to 30/40psi within a second making the car creeps through the brakes and I red-light...usually doesn't even get a timeslip. wasted run.

c: If I light the pre-stage bulb, then start to stall up on the converter and attempt to bump into the stage bulb once on boost and opponent staged, vacuum & brake pressure is gone and the car just blows through the beams and red lights...no timeslip.


The only way to make this work is to put a vacuum pump on the brake booster and practice method C, stalling on the pre-stage bulb and bumping into the stage bulb under full boost/power. That's still relying on the footbrake to re-grip hold back maximum engine torque. It also relies on using boost control/rev limiters to set the launch rpm/boost levels...which I haven't even started to try and figure out.

For "record chasing" runs where all I care about is ET, I generally just do A...and let the other car win by 10 seconds. who cares, Im running for ET not a win light. Then I can concentrate on launching exactly at the right rpm/boost level for the hardest 60'.

Have you tried option C AND dropping timing at your 2 step point to about 5*? Should kill off a lot of torque at that point. Seems to work for others that have tried it. My motor is going together this week so i'll try it next time out at the track. I would definitely get a vac pump. Best couple bucks i've spent on my setup.

 

[Nate Crisman]

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to say "it can't be done". Haha. Not in the slightest. I was just saying that I have not bothered to work on RT or staging as I don't really "race" the car at all, I built it simply to chase an ET record where reaction time and win/loss are irrelevant. Frankly, I'd prefer to make solo passes with no other cars. If I could do track rentals and have the property to myself, even better.

I don't use a rev limiter or boost control on the starting line, if I tried to hold it back, as I said before, it would likely pass 35-40 psi on a 16g! Basically I launch when the car is ready regardless of the tree. Sometimes I don't even go WOT untill the green light comes on..sit there for 8 seconds more and launch when the other car hits the traps. Then I can hear what's going on with my own car.

 

[Phil1320]

Oh yeah, I didn't mean to say "it can't be done". Haha. Not in the slightest. I was just saying that I have not bothered to work on RT or staging as I don't really "race" the car at all, I built it simply to chase an ET record where reaction time and win/loss are irrelevant. Frankly, I'd prefer to make solo passes with no other cars. If I could do track rentals and have the property to myself, even better.

I don't use a rev limiter or boost control on the starting line, if I tried to hold it back, as I said before, it would likely pass 35-40 psi on a 16g! Basically I launch when the car is ready regardless of the tree. Sometimes I don't even go WOT untill the green light comes on..sit there for 8 seconds more and launch when the other car hits the traps. Then I can hear what's going on with my own car.

Gotcha...wow, that's gotta be pretty hard on the turbo huh?

 

[talontd92tsi]

Nate,

Do you have a trans temp gauge? I just wonder how hot one of those gets being brake boosted for 7+ seconds.

 

[bastarddsm]

Auto cars can be made to leave on the green

Yep, all you gotta do is put a clutch back in em. hehe I kid.

 

[Kevin Jewer]

Horseshit!

 

[pneumo]

I was just reading this again and something hit me....me & Nate(moreso than me) have been quicker than you for some time now...is it that now a third AWD will be quicker that would bring you out to ''reclaim'' YOUR position.

I just want to stay in the top 5.

 

[Phil1320]

I just want to stay in the top 5.

oh. Well, that might be tough to do for some of us. As others have so fondly pointed out, my last passes were 2 years back this month. If we don't get back out there soon, I'd imagine some others might get out there in the interim and threaten. However, I don't see any of them thus far that can top Shane's effort.

 

[1SloEvo]

I'm getting things squared away now to get my car ready to hit the track. New clutch in hand, flywheel on the way, wideband on the way, all fluids for the drivetrain on the way, and some other small odds and ends. Hope to start pulling the trans later this week to get the center diff welded, throw it all back in with the new clutch, get it tuned on E85 toward the end of the month, and make some shakedown passes early November. The car is still pretty heavy right now. About the only things gone are trunk panels, front/rear wipers and motors, and all a/c components. I'll be dropping the weight down a bit over the winter. Hopefully get it under 2500lb with me in it...but that's a pretty long stretch. We shall see. Depends on if I want to make it a dedicated track car or keep it on the street from time to time.

 

[Phil1320]

I'm getting things squared away now to get my car ready to hit the track. New clutch in hand, flywheel on the way, wideband on the way, all fluids for the drivetrain on the way, and some other small odds and ends. Hope to start pulling the trans later this week to get the center diff welded, throw it all back in with the new clutch, get it tuned on E85 toward the end of the month, and make some shakedown passes early November. The car is still pretty heavy right now. About the only things gone are trunk panels, front/rear wipers and motors, and all a/c components. I'll be dropping the weight down a bit over the winter. Hopefully get it under 2500lb with me in it...but that's a pretty long stretch. We shall see. Depends on if I want to make it a dedicated track car or keep it on the street from time to time.

Nice! Good that you'll get some shakedown passes in. It's tough to make the call. I basically made the decision for two reasons, having to emissions test the car every 2 years, and that it was so gutted on the interior with race seat that it just wan't fun to be out on the road in for any length of time...

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Nice! Good that you'll get some shakedown passes in. It's tough to make the call. I basically made the decision for two reasons, having to emissions test the car every 2 years, and that it was so gutted on the interior with race seat that it just wan't fun to be out on the road in for any length of time...

I have to pass emissions every single year here! It's always passed but it's still always stressful on me. I'm in the same boat when it comes to comfort though. The only mods I'm doing that will REALLY keep if off the road though will be the small fuel cell, side bumper exit exhaust, and bolted in Lexan windows. It's really hot here most of the year.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

Where do you guys with harnesses have the shoulder straps bolted down? I was planning on sheet metaling my backseat floor area but looking at Joe B's pictures he has his shoulder straps mounted straight down which is not recommended and is supposed to be the least safe option. A better location would be where the stock rear lap belts go but if I sheet metal the floor those will be gone.

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[99gst_racer]

yeah, floor mounting of the rear strap is definitely a big no-no. I've only seen pics of Joe's car with the cage, and the harness was mounted to it. A harness bar is another good option, but again, it's weight and I know how important every lb. is.

Is there a good, strong place below the quarter window to weld on a nut like this to create a mounting point?

 

[SBstar]

Nate, you can adapt a 2g seatbelt or try to find some canadian belts. Otherwise you're probably going to want to find or create a harness bar option or think about a cage. You definately don't want to mount them to the floor in any way as the angle won't pass tech at most tracks, plus it's a safety issue.

 

[91stocker]

There's a large oem seatbelt anchor bolt in this area that would work great with a rallye 3 set up.

 

[Phil1320]

Nate, you can adapt a 2g seatbelt or try to find some canadian belts. Otherwise you're probably going to want to find or create a harness bar option or think about a cage. You definately don't want to mount them to the floor in any way as the angle won't pass tech at most tracks, plus it's a safety issue.

I run the 2g belt til cage time, then back to a race seat again. Harness shoulder restraints should be mounted at or about shoulder height.

 

[9!'clipseDOHC]

yeah, floor mounting of the rear strap is definitely a big no-no. I've only seen pics of Joe's car with the cage, and the harness was mounted to it. A harness bar is another good option, but again, it's weight and I know how important every lb. is.

Is there a good, strong place below the quarter window to weld on a nut like this to create a mounting point?

The support work in that area is very flimsy and weak with the exception of the rear strut tower. Would that be a good location? I could definitely weld a threaded bung in there if it will work. I could actually probably do it today as I can use the bungs that are in the crossmember I cut out that were originally for the rear shoulder straps.

Nate, you can adapt a 2g seatbelt or try to find some canadian belts. Otherwise you're probably going to want to find or create a harness bar option or think about a cage. You definately don't want to mount them to the floor in any way as the angle won't pass tech at most tracks, plus it's a safety issue.

I may look into 2g seat belts as a temp fix.

There's a large oem seatbelt anchor bolt in this area that would work great with a rallye 3 set up.

That setup looks great! However that seatbelt anchor you are describing was part of the cross member that I just cut out. It's not there in Joe B's picture either. This is what that area currently looks like on my car. The only place that feels solid is the strut tower. The rest is just thin, flimsy metal.

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[SBstar]

I would venture to assume the strut tower would be a solid enough mounting point, considering the kind of load/abuse it takes being a suspension mounting point. The only issue I see with it is the angle is not straight back. I would have to look at the rule book to see if that would be an issue with a harness.