The 14b Drag Race Discussion Thread

[Nate Crisman]

I'll have to look back at your 16g stuff. But, how exactly did you do this? Perhaps I don't fully understand the concept.

Hook a map/pressure sensor to the exhaust manifold and log it as an additional input to the ecu (EGR temp wire/o2 sensor wire)

 

[1qkfwd]

I just so happen to have one more input to log pressure. I might have to set this up.

 

[SBstar]

Wouldn't it be nice if DsM link had a feature for a second map sensor input to log back pressure that was selectable as the input variable that drives the wgs logic? Then you could run a closed loop system to regulate exhaust back pressure.

I'll have a exh press sensor on my 14b effort this year.

Shit, you guys should take me off the list, as I don't back up passes. I make a run, and make big changes every pass. I don't think iv made two runs on the same tune/setup in the last 5 years.

No worries Nate, I meant competition racing. Although this is a competition, I don't think we're requiring anyone to back up anything for this "record".

Hook a map/pressure sensor to the exhaust manifold and log it as an additional input to the ecu (EGR temp wire/o2 sensor wire)

I understand how to log backpressure, but I guess the whole concept is what is getting me. I would assume you would find the highest psi that matches with optimal backpressure on the setup?

 

[Nate Crisman]

I would bet that I you were to take boost pressure devided by exhaust back pressure and plot it as a curve by rpm...it just might follow a dyno plot type graph!

Then if you make logs and map out different boost pressure settings, you could effectively run down the track with varying boost pressure per rpm...to stay on the ideal boost /exhaust pressure ratio.

 

[SBstar]

Alright, between that and reading back through the 16g thread I think I'm understand it now. I like the idea, but it's a little advanced for my level!

 

[1SloEvo]

I will just set the boost and run it. Too much hassle with the backpressure logs, etc.

 

[SBstar]

I will just set the boost and run it. Too much hassle with the backpressure logs, etc.

Yep, it's quite a bit easier to turn it up until you no longer see gains, turn it back down a touch, and keep on trucking. May not be as perfectly efficient, but it was good enough for 10's.

 

[pneumo]

Yep, it's quite a bit easier to turn it up until you no longer see gains, turn it back down a touch, and keep on trucking. May not be as perfectly efficient, but it was good enough for 10's.

Yeah, the experimental approach works as long as it's based on good theory.

The last page of this thread is interesting.
I agree that regulating exh backpressure is better than regulating boost pressure. That's why I did the wacky valvespring mod to the wastegate on my 16G setup. I set the preload loose enough so the wastegate would crack open and hold backpressure relatively steady. I didn't care that boost fell off since a turbo flows more at low boost anyway.

The wastegate setup on my 14b was different, too. I used a solenoid to cut off boost to the MBC above 5500 rpm so it ran on wastegate pressure. This also eliminated the bleeder hole on the MBC so I had one less boost leak- I wanted to use every molecule of air for power. No boost leaks!

Yes the turbo bearings are near their limits, so feed them oil from the OFH. If it smokes from too much oil, then add a restrictor.

Use a big intercooler. There's no drawback except for price and weight.

 

[Phil1320]

I agree with you Phil. That one hit wonder isn't enough for me. I like when people are able to backup their numbers, like Shane has been doing. Very consistent and has backed them up nicely!

On a personal note, I got some HKS 264/272 cams on the way along with cam gears and a ported n/t t/b. Waiting to here back about some valvesprings. Got my flywheel and all components for the clutch swap...just need the fluids to show up. Wideband should be here on Monday. I talked with ETS yesterday and they are all out of cores for their race intercoolers until next week, so I'll get a fmic on order next week. I will probably order the 'stuff' to connect my 2g maf up later today along with the chromoly crossmember and k plates from Paul! Once I get the trans swapped and the fluids in, I'll be swapping over and running through some E85!!! Can't wait!

Cool, yeah exactly like Shane has been doing!

Sounds like a sick set-up and I hope it works well for you!

Oh I'll be out there next Saturday. I've had a few locals helping out with the missing pieces. I'd love to be in the top 5 but I really just wanna get some passes with the 14b and at least get on the list. It's nice that the tune isnt stock already and follows along for a small turbo. My main concern is keeping the boost at a high enough level to not be damaging.

That's great man, hope it goes well!

Wouldn't it be nice if DsM link had a feature for a second map sensor input to log back pressure that was selectable as the input variable that drives the wgs logic? Then you could run a closed loop system to regulate exhaust back pressure.

I'll have a exh press sensor on my 14b effort this year.

Shit, you guys should take me off the list, as I don't back up passes. I make a run, and make big changes every pass. I don't think iv made two runs on the same tune/setup in the last 5 years.

No way man....you've been toying with the 14b for a long time. You're not just bolting it on your big turbo set up to make some passes and then walk away. You've earned your spot for sure. Plus, you're a huge contributor and have done lots of experimentation.

 

[lowell]

Any of you guys spraying methanol pre-turbo?

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I plan on running 3gph pre turbo. No one that I've seen is currently running pre turbo.

 

[SBstar]

Nope, no meth pre-turbo, no meth at all. I dislike things in the system that are another failure spot to be honest. Not that I don't see the benefits of course.

But, speaking of injection. Has anyone looked into this FTW fuels? Specifically the FTW Purple? It's essentially oxygenated E-85 and people are seeing 10% gains in hp simply from switching fuels. Seems kind of unlikely, but theres been several before/after dyno plots made, no changes in tune, just a fuel swap. However, this stuff is like 33-35 bucks a gallon. Also, there is some issues with what kind of injectors you can use with oxygenated fuels. FIC apparently directly says to not use them because of expansion issues. Just another thing to throw in the mix.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

Looks promising but $33-35.. yikes! I guess if you gain 10hp.. not bad for a $33 dollar mod. I wonder how the burn rate compares to e85,e98. Shane if you ran it you might be 4th. Nate mentioned something about a oxygenated e85 back in this tread. I believe it was a VP blend.

 

[tkelly27]

@ $35/gal for an oxygenated fuel, I think you'd be better off with NO2.

 

[91stocker]

Just take a straw and blow bubbles in your e85

I kid, i kid

 

[pneumo]

I plan on running 3gph pre turbo. No one that I've seen is currently running pre turbo.

That's a good example of theory vs experiment.
There's good evidence on other platforms that pre-turbo meth injection will improve efficiency. The trick is figuring out the best flow rate since the 14b flows relatively small amounts of air, but OTOH the turbo is being pushed to it's extreme limits so it'll have high outlet temps. You'll have an advantage if you've figured it out.

 

[SBstar]

Nate ran his e-85 that was blended with race gas. This is a whole different animal. Stock K series honda went from 225 to 251 supposedly on a simple fuel swap. Another built car went from 775 to 845, same thing, fuel swap, tune the afr's back in. I'm not a chemist but apparently this stuff works. Looks like it's already being talked about/used in the evo world too. But, as said, expensive as all get out! Even if you had a 1 gallon fuel cell, one track visit is going to cost you $100 in fuel alone on this stuff. But, if it's work 20-30 hp it's got some benefit. Another thing to throw in the mix.

Hubz, I'm almost surprised you didn't say you were already running this stuff. And if I could've 60 footed I'd be third ha ha. Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda's don't count.

 

[hubz91talontsi]

I stopped sharing what I'm doing for the most part. I'm changing duty stations in January. I'll be home on leave for 17 days in decemeber. Dropping my 2.4 off to get sleeved in Novemeber. Dyno time in January? Even after I have dyno numbers I don't plan on sharing much.

 

[1SloEvo]

Looks like my factory clutch had a lot of life left...NOT!

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This thing was toast. I knew it was bad. Would only do about a half throttle pull...otherwise it would slip. Actually got about 90% complete today...and I wasn't work on it all day. Clutch is swapped, trans and xfer case back in place. Waiting on a couple other parts to swap while the car is in the air, but about the only thing it needs to be ready to run is drivetrain fluids, downpipe installed, and an oil change! Just gotta get the car running decent on the 1450s I picked up so I can get the clutch broken in! Can't wait to hit the track!!!!

 

[SBstar]

Wow Brandon that does not look good! Get it together and broke in ASAP! We need some more track times!

I plan on starting tomorrow on the tear down of my talon, I want to get the trans pulled so I can inspect my clutch as well. But, it's been 35-40 and rainy here, a little cold in an unheated storage unit! Time to man up again!

 

[1SloEvo]

If you have a costco nearby, they have these little heaters that look like mini satellite dishes. Only cost me about $35 and works great. Get that beast ready for next season.

 

[1qkfwd]

I feel that using these special blend fuels and pre turbo tricks are things you do after you expended all your other options and your scratching your head trying to get those extra 5-10hp. If the 14B record was broke on plain ole race gas, that sounds like a good enough start for the majority of us. Why complicate things ya know.

 

[Phil1320]

I feel that using these special blend fuels and pre turbo tricks are things you do after you expended all your other options and your scratching your head trying to get those extra 5-10hp. If the 14B record was broke on plain ole race gas, that sounds like a good enough start for the majority of us. Why complicate things ya know.

I gotta agree. I'll be using plain old race gas myself. All this ''thinking outside the box'' is definitely cool in some ways, but without even making some shakedown runs to see where you stand, it seems way premature.

As it stands, this is a pretty simple equation. Make 300+ whp, reduce weight, drive = 11 seconds...

 

[1qkfwd]

You can only make so much hp with this little guy. There are many ways to skin a cat, but some of this stuff is to far fetched and way outta most these guys reach. Its no wonder why they all give up before even making it to the track.

Me personally just wants to get to the track and get some seat time and get comfy with the car. Im losing so much more weight than I expected. Im pretty excited to get a full weight of the car. Hopefully in a day or two I will have that.

What are most you guys launching at and shifting at???

 

[SBstar]

For the record, even though I brought it up, I totally agree. I won't be moving on from E-85 anytime soon. Fact is for me e-85 is way easier to use since I have it readily available, I can tune the car and not worry about any changes at the track, and it's cheaper then race gas. I may consider E-98 in the future if the car ever becomes a track only car, but there is no way I'm paying over $100 in fuel for a track visit. I only brought it up because we've talked about alot of crazy things in this thread. E-98 to me is about the same as running race gas for most people, it's not readily available at a pump and you have to tune it differently then your every day tune. Race gas is a little more readily available at most tracks though. But, the only real reason I'd switch to E-98 is consistency instead of dealing with who knows what real % of ethanol coming from the e-85 gas pumps without testing it every time. I don't think there's alot more power to be had on e98 if any at all. Maybe I'll just test it until I find the pump at an actual 85% rate and buy a bunch to store.

You can only make so much hp with this little guy. There are many ways to skin a cat, but some of this stuff is to far fetched and way outta most these guys reach. Its no wonder why they all give up before even making it to the track.

Me personally just wants to get to the track and get some seat time and get comfy with the car. Im losing so much more weight than I expected. Im pretty excited to get a full weight of the car. Hopefully in a day or two I will have that.

What are most you guys launching at and shifting at???

I can't speak for fwd launching, I launched at 5250 for my best 60's on street tires, best 60' on the qtp's was at 6k, spinning pretty good on a cold track. I try to shoot for just under 7k on the 1-2 and 2-3 and 3-4 right around 6500. I revved one pass to all 7k shifts and it hurt my time and I could really feel the power falling off.