Small 16g dyno numbers here!

[jmakado]

well i finally got to the dyno and did some tuning. i'll list full mods after the numbers for those interested....sorry i can't post the sheet, but i have no scanner. they will be up at www.rmdsm.org shortly and i will provide a link. anyway, here we go:
PUMP GAS (91 octaine) @19psi, temp.- 96.68*
PEAK HP 297.37 @5700rpms
PEAK TORQUE 294.15 @4300rpms
A/F of 11:1 untill 4600rpm's and then 10:1 on up. not sure why we had to run so rich? the car made more power at this level though. i think we were just heatsoaking really bad and had to dump lots of fuel to keep from knocking.
RACE GAS (105 unleaded) @19psi, temp.- 99-100*
PEAK HP 319.38@5700rpms
PEAK TORQUE 303.95@4400rpms with 290-300 available from 3800-5800rpms.
A/F of 11-11.5 to 1 with a strange and sharp dip to 10 to 1 from 4600-5200rpms. again, we had to run fairly rich to keep knock and egt's at bay. i think the heat was also a factor in this test.
as you can see i still have some tuning to do but i am getting closer! if you use a 22% driveline loss factor, that's 389hp at the crank (i know not the *most* accurate way)........ not bad for a turbo that is only supposed to support 340HP.
any questions? comments? flames?....j/k

 

[jmakado]

97 gsx
small 16g
VPE SS FMIC
190lph fuel pump
EVO 560cc injectors
RSR 3" turbo back NO cat
1g BOV
S-AFC II
Joe-p MBC@19psi
everything ported by myself.
and that's it! i have some other mods, but the above are the only ones related to dyno numbers.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Wow very Impressive, big to you.

PS AWD or 2WD Dyno?

 

[Blk_99gst]

PS AWD or 2WD Dyno?

If he's quoting 22% drivetrain loss, then I'm going to say awd dyno. If he'd dyno'ed fwd mode, then I would expect him to quote 15% or so drivetrain loss since you're not spinning 2 other wheels. Just my guess though.

 

[vlaar]

Wow! Very, very nice I need a FMIC

Kevin

 

[jmakado]

this was on an AWD dynojet dyno. the shop said it was the most HP by a lot that they had seen out of any 16g....much less a small 16g. right off the street i put down 272hp on pump and i was already happy. as the numbers went up.....i couldn't stop the permagrin ..... the FMIC would get hot enough to leave a bar and plate "pattern" on the back of my hand on the hot side but stay *fairly* cool on the cold side. with some cooler weather i think that 330-340 at the wheels is reasonable.

 

[Blk_99gst]

Holy crap dude, are you sure it's onlya small 16g? Those are some VERY high numbers especially for all four wheels. I don't know, I believe you (don't think you'd lie about it), but how accurate is their dyno? Did anyone else dyno that day or any other cars. Because I have a hard time believing those numbers for a fwd car, let alone an awd car. But hey if it's legit, then that's awesome!

Here's another tread here in the tuning section for dyno number for me (99gst big16g) and another 2g gst big16g:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128825
95 eclipse gst automatic made 262 hp and 277 tq
99gst, 5speed, 279whp, 284 torque.
These are fwd cars too, i.e. less drivetrain loss, and both cars ran 93oct. But your PEAK HP 297.37 @5700rpms with 91 octane and only 560 injectors...well I've never heard of it before.

What clutch do you have. Do you have an external dump? I'm really not trying to rain on your parade, so don't take it the wrong way. But different dynos do give different results.

 

[jmakado]

everyone at the shop couldn't believe it either! it was the most they had ever gotten from a 16g.
dave landry (helped develop tunerstein, works with the guys from dsmlink, founder of rmdsm, etc) helped me tune. as the numbers kept going up, people where all like "holy shit". i have yet to measure the comp. wheel, but i bought it as a "small 16g" from a vendor. the car has traditionaly been "stronger" than other similarily equiped dsm's up here in colorado. i don't take any offense to you questioning me either....i would do the same. i will try to get the sheets up at rmdsm so you can all take a look and call bullshit on me if you feel like it oh ya, the dyno is a standard dynojet dyno and they had done multiple cars before and after me....as for the injectors, 560's support much more than people give credit for. with a piggy-back (afc as i have), you will gain some timing with larger injectors....but too much timing and you move to a *lesser* fuel map and lose power...too small of an injector and you hit fuel cut. the key is finding that perfect middle ground. that's why i think my car did so well, all my parts are matched to each other well...no monster 255 fuel pump to overrun the stock FPR, no huge 850cc injectors to mess up my fuel maps, no huge 60-1 turbo or cams to move my powerband out to 50,000rpms....ok, a little exageration, but you get my point. i encourage the questioning of my numbers though and in no way am i offended.

 

[Blk_99gst]

i have yet to measure the comp. wheel, but i bought it as a "small 16g" from a vendor.

It's somehow a 20g packed into the shell of a 16g!

as for the injectors, 560's support much more than people give credit for. with a piggy-back (afc as i have), you will gain some timing with larger injectors....but too much timing and you move to a *lesser* fuel map and lose power....

I'm kind of curious about your statement here. I have been told by several well known dsm figures that bigger injectors on a 2g giving you better timing advance, hence why 660cc injectors are suppose to be better than 550's. It kind of makes sense, to me at least. If you use a larger injector to lie to the ecu more about how much air is coming in, then the ecu will get more aggressive with timing advance. And more timing advance (as long as no knock is present) should give more power. Can you explain your "lesser" fuel map theory a little more.

 

[jmakado]

many people are misinformed about the whole timing advance thing. yes, more advance will give you more power....however, above a certain number, say 23*, the STOCK ecu will move to a "cruising map" for fuel and you can acctually lose power. if you have a standalone or dsmlink where YOU are manipulating the timing, then it's a different story. so yes, more advance=more power. but only to a point.
no 20g wheel unless someone sold me a FP sleeper 16g
i will try to find some other threads on the larger injector-timing advance relationship.....also, still waiting on dave to post up the dyno sheets at rmdsm.

 

[jmakado]

http://www.rmdsm.org/forums/showthread.php? postid=20691\
scroll down about halfway and you'll see the initial run compared to the best race gas run. the best pump gas run should be up shortly.

 

[Blk_99gst]

Also:

What clutch do you have. Do you have an external dump?

Also, do you know approx what your safc hi settings were for the 560 injectors and pump gas; then race gas? In the other thread you mention you have some other goodies to put on; what else is bolting on?

 

[DlandryTSI]

The dynojet at MAC Autosport is legit. If you are comparing dynojet numbers to DD dyno's then you will see a difference. The DD Dyno's don't put a high enough load on the car.

This is the same dyno that we did the manifold testing on as well as our HP competition.

What were you using for tuning? Also how much boost? Give the full details if you want an accurate comparison.

--Dave

Holy crap dude, are you sure it's onlya small 16g? Those are some VERY high numbers especially for all four wheels. I don't know, I believe you (don't think you'd lie about it), but how accurate is their dyno? Did anyone else dyno that day or any other cars. Because I have a hard time believing those numbers for a fwd car, let alone an awd car. But hey if it's legit, then that's awesome!

Here's another tread here in the tuning section for dyno number for me (99gst big16g) and another 2g gst big16g:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128825
95 eclipse gst automatic made 262 hp and 277 tq
99gst, 5speed, 279whp, 284 torque.
These are fwd cars too, i.e. less drivetrain loss, and both cars ran 93oct. But your PEAK HP 297.37 @5700rpms with 91 octane and only 560 injectors...well I've never heard of it before.

What clutch do you have. Do you have an external dump? I'm really not trying to rain on your parade, so don't take it the wrong way. But different dynos do give different results.

 

[CanadianTSi]

Your Pump gas pulls are off the chart Rich!

Why not lean it out a bit more??

 

[98spydert]

Your Pump gas pulls are off the chart Rich!

Why not lean it out a bit more??

Thin air and a super hot day. :thumbdown

 

[jmakado]

exactly! if i get back on a cooler day i will be able to tune a little more fuel out of it.
stock clutch as of now....i know, i know, it shouldn't be holding blah, blah, blah. it has held over 40 drag launches and multiple 1.8-1.9 60' times.
no external dump.
high afc settings are listed on rmdsm (kinda, don't want to give all the info out before the HP competition).
i have a feramic clutch and ACT flywheel from AMS to put on when/if the stocker dies......i also am going to let the engine breath a little more up top, and that's all i'm saying.

 

[kpt4321]

Good, because I was going to suggest that you get cams next.

350 whp is the most I know of a small 16g making. You've done pretty well so far!

 

[jmakado]

cams may be a little way off. but some porting and maybe extrude honing may be in the immediate future. not sure if/when i will be upgrading turbo and to what, so cams will wait untill i decide that. i also need to do some suspension/brake mods to catch the chassis up to the engine before i go much further HP wise.

 

[NewB2dsm]

Very good numbers! and why only 19psi on race gas? and pump? Seems kinda dumb to me, if you gained HP by just switching gas its b/c your knocking and the race gas stopped it.

I made 290awhp 100% legel aka cat in place pump and 302.6awhp race, this is after a correction on a dyno dynamics dyno.

with some cooler weather i think that 330-340 at the wheels is reasonable.

Now this i dont agree with, weather plays a factor but not that much trust me, iv been on a dyno 6 times all in different weather. Twice while raining. HP is not affected that much on the dyno, the things that will change is how many runs you can do back to back to back before the IC is heatsoaked. Power will go down some in hot/humid weather but not as much as you are saying. I might say 330whp, but run it at the track and see what kind of MPH it puts up. Dont use the dyno just for numbers use it to help tune, then take it to the track.

Also good choice in the clutch, i have a early early early version of that clutch and its held great for me countless low 1.7 60fts and a 1.6 too with 30k+ on it. I was at the makers house last night

Good stuff non the less man.

 

[jmakado]

Very good numbers! and why only 19psi on race gas? and pump? Seems kinda dumb to me, if you gained HP by just switching gas its b/c your knocking and the race gas stopped it.
Good stuff non the less man.

actually, that's not what happened at all. the extra power was made by leaning the afc out. we only ran 19psi. on race gas because of the heat. when the boost goes up, the stock ecu/fpr *should* adjust with the upped boost at the standard rate (1psi more boost=1psi more fuel pressure).
also, i wasn't saying that i would make that much more power just from cooler weather as you immplied. cooler weather will let me turn up the boost and lean her out a little which is where the power will come from.
by tuning at a lower boost level on the dyno it makes everything much easier. then, i will turn the boost up and go off of logger readings to make sure the car is still getting good timing advance at higher boost levels.....which answers your third statement "use the dyno for tuning and not just for hp numbers". we were......if we wanted just big numbers, we would have turned it up to 22psi and had someone spray water on the intercooler the whole pull.
we just used a more efficient way of spending dyno time. that's where a tuning pro like dave comes in handy...just some tips.

 

[NewB2dsm]

actually, that's not what happened at all. the extra power was made by leaning the afc out. we only ran 19psi. on race gas because of the heat. when the boost goes up, the stock ecu/fpr *should* adjust with the upped boost at the standard rate (1psi more boost=1psi more fuel pressure).
also, i wasn't saying that i would make that much more power just from cooler weather as you immplied. cooler weather will let me turn up the boost and lean her out a little which is where the power will come from.
by tuning at a lower boost level on the dyno it makes everything much easier. then, i will turn the boost up and go off of logger readings to make sure the car is still getting good timing advance at higher boost levels.....which answers your third statement "use the dyno for tuning and not just for hp numbers". we were......if we wanted just big numbers, we would have turned it up to 22psi and had someone spray water on the intercooler the whole pull.
we just used a more efficient way of spending dyno time. that's where a tuning pro like dave comes in handy...just some tips.

good stuff, i guess i just read fast and made asumtions. But like i said anyway good numbers, and keep us informed on the cooler day dyno runs.

and more importantly what it does at the track and how you like your clutch.

 

[jmakado]

it will probably be july 7 before i get any time at the strip and even longer before i get more dyno time. that's incredible to hear those 60's on a gabor with 30k on it!!! hearing numbers like that makes me happy about my purchase......now if the stocker will just die already, i'll put it in. not sure why more dsmers don't go with the gabor/feramic clutch? thanks for the questions though...also good stuff

 

[NewB2dsm]

it will probably be july 7 before i get any time at the strip and even longer before i get more dyno time. that's incredible to hear those 60's on a gabor with 30k on it!!! hearing numbers like that makes me happy about my purchase......now if the stocker will just die already, i'll put it in. not sure why more dsmers don't go with the gabor/feramic clutch? thanks for the questions though...also good stuff

I think people dont go with it b/c its not a "known" clutch. Its new, its called gabor clutch and its not a act.

I like it, every one here local that has one likes it and like i said, It can pull very good 60fts. But i also have an old ass version mine is a year and half old or so. The producer is a local guy for me and i was kinda a tester i guess. Great clutch though! hope you like it and let us know what the car does at the track. Good numbers again

 

[jmakado]

well i made it to the track on july 7 for some "real" numbers. unfortunatly, the flywheel is still not here (waiting 6 weeks now) so i had to run on my stock clutch with 40+ passes and 80k miles. i hoped it would hold since i made 20 dyno pulls with it not slipping at all......boy was i wrong!! my first two passes i blew a coupler off at the 60'. on my third i got a clean run but the clutch was slipping so bad i ended up just coasting through the lights.
after letting the the car cool down for an hour i made my final attempt. the clutch was slipping so bad i was driving off the rev limiter in first and second. it slipped through 3rd and 4th as well but i just kept it floored and hoped for the best. i had a 1.9 60' :thumbdown and ran a 13.4@102mph. my previous best before the new mods was a 13.6@100 with no clutch slip. now before you gasp at the times: my track is at 5800ft ASL and 50trims tend to run mid-high 12's. we tend to shy away from NHRA corrections up here but you can take off about .75-.85 of a second and add about 4-6mph to correct for sea level. i was really hoping for 12's and now think that it is possible with the current set up. again, just for reference, a high 12 would correct to a low 12 at sea level. that would make me very happy considering my car is not stripped at all and i have a sub, etc. the car weighs 3415lbs with me in it. i hope to get back to the track and run a 12 some time in august!

 

[jefferino]

I just have a big 16g, Custom FMIC, 550s, 3" downpipe back, SAFC, hallman MBC and I made 317whp and 285ft lbs on my 2g with 1g swap. On my heavy axis 18s, full body kit and shifting at random spots, I ran a 12.3 @ 108 with a 1.8 60ft. Spinnin like a madman. I dont understand how your car can make so much more power and not run cloer to that type of time or even faster? I'm not doggin cuz ur numbers are very impressive but I just would think it would be quicker.