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1G Several quick questions before attempting AWD manual trans rebuild

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
I'm looking through the repair invoice for when the dealer did trans work, the last time I believe it was opened up. Interesting list of parts that I won't bother you with, especially since they may or may not be what they ended up putting in. It took weeks for them to finish it and everytime I called they had a different story, so it didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about their competence and honesty. Bottom line, I'll have to open it up.
 

iugrad92turbo

Supporting Member
12,660
679
May 22, 2007
Kalamazoo, Michigan
Yeah youll find out more once you open her up, i had the pleasure of having tre local to me and the owner, i consider a friend to just say hello. busy as he is. Yes tre is alive and really cranking them out, i get there and see the processs and watched him tear my transmissions down, and he tells me exactyly what is needed and we chat for a bit. Not everyone can have the option of that. HEs taken care of me and will when something esle breaks, and he really works with me and my budget, with a goal in mind.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Even though some folks seem intimidated by the prospect of fixing a trans, I'm actually looking forward to it. Whether I can not only do it but do it right is another matter, but I'm pretty confident that I can. It'll just take me 10 times as long as an expert. Which is fine. Done right it should serve me and future owners well for years.

If it does go well, I'm actually thinking of taking on repairing my mom's '92 Camry auto trans, which no longer works in reverse. Totally different setup, I realize, between auto and manual, but what the hell, it beats buying a new one or taking a chance on a reman or used. Anyway, yeah, the real work begins when I open it up. This is just prep.
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
3,804
907
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Even though some folks seem intimidated by the prospect of fixing a trans, I'm actually looking forward to it. Whether I can not only do it but do it right is another matter, but I'm pretty confident that I can. It'll just take me 10 times as long as an expert. Which is fine. Done right it should serve me and future owners well for years.

If it does go well, I'm actually thinking of taking on repairing my mom's '92 Camry auto trans, which no longer works in reverse. Totally different setup, I realize, between auto and manual, but what the hell, it beats buying a new one or taking a chance on a reman or used. Anyway, yeah, the real work begins when I open it up. This is just prep.
With the Camry trans, there are a few things to check. Reverse band could have failed or broken off the tabs, or the solenoids are a known problem. Also check the linkage and manually go through the range and see if there is still some sort of movement when reverse is engaged on the trans.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Thanks. Will do. I'm getting tired of pushing her car into a parking space when she uses it. It's also kind of embarrassing if done on an ongoing basis.
 

Bird58

Probationary Member
20
6
Oct 5, 2019
Revere, Massachusetts
As many here know I've been restoring my sub-78k miles manual trans '92 Talon TSi AWD for some time now, and it's finally time to fix the trans, the main issue being its popping out of 1st gear most of the time. I replaced the clutch last year, with a SBC Stage 2 DD kit, with the intention of fixing the trans while it was out,, but I had to put it back on because the car had to be moved. Now with the weather warm enough to work outside all day and other priorities taken care of, I can finally get to it.

I've done a lot of research into this and continue to do so, here and elsewhere, have the FSM and other guides and have read them back and forth multiple times, etc., so I don't need detailed answers, all of which I'm sure have been asked and answered here many times. Just quick answers to a few questions I'm still a bit confused about. I hope I'm not being too annoying in asking them here. Anyway, here goes.
  1. Since it looks like, aside from maybe also the 1st-2nd shift fork, the cause of the popping out of 1st issue is likely constrained to the intermediate shaft, e.g. worn synchro, keys, slider, hub, gear, etc., do I still need to remove the staked nut on the input shaft? Is it impossible to remove both stacks without removing both staked nuts?
  2. If the 5th speed synchro assembly and/or the 5th speed intermediate gear don't come off by hand, what's the correct way to remove them, a small 2 or 3 jaw puller, or a split bearing splitter and push-pull tool?
  3. When I remove the bottom tapered bearing & sleeve, 1st gear, 1st-2nd slider/hub & 2nd gear off the intermediate shaft, should I put the bearing splitter under 1st or 2nd gear?
  4. Will doing so (properly) make it possible to save and reuse the tapered bearing, assuming it's not already damaged, or should I replace it no matter what?
  5. If I'm able to save and reuse the tapered bearing, do I need to remove the corresponding race, perhaps to adjust the spacing for preload/play?
  6. Even if the cause of the 1st gear popping out is constrained to the 1st-2nd gear intermediate assembly and I see no visible damage elsewhere, are there any other parts that really should be replaced given that I have the trans out and taken apart, as a precaution--aside from gaskets, lock rings, pins, shims, etc., that have to be replaced, of course, along with all the seals? E.g. bearings & races, gears, synchros, springs, etc.
Btw are all or most of these parts still available?

Finally, which of these 1st-2nd hub/slider Mitsubishi part #'s should I get? It seems like some of them also come with a synchro or two?

Hub & Sleeve 1st-2nd OEM MD749414
Hub & Sleeve + Ring 1st-2nd OEM MD746829 (alt # MD742465)
Hub & Sleeve + Rings 1st-2nd OEM MD747643

Sorry for all the questions but I'm almost good to go but for them!
could just save the money and get a ppg dog box.. only way nowadays.. our transmission are like glass
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Yeah, I don't think so. It's a daily driver and that's not the right setup.
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
3,804
907
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Agreed, even in the circumstance of gears and shafts no longer being available, this makes the most sense to replace the worn components, bearings, synchros, shift forks, snap rings, seals, shaft nuts, roll pins and that's it.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
One more very quick question.

There seem to be 2 types of replacement roll/spring pins for the shift forks, regular and "heavy duty" or double-thickness ones. Which should I get for a 1G AWD rebuild in a stock 195HP TSi Talon? The cost difference is significant but still fairly small. If the heavier duty ones are for higher-HP situations then I'd just as soon save a few bucks and get the regular ones but if they're a good idea I'll splurge and get those.

I.e. these:


vs. these:

 

iugrad92turbo

Supporting Member
12,660
679
May 22, 2007
Kalamazoo, Michigan
I would contact them and see what there opinion is since you referenced them. I've called before and they answered my questions.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Well I figured the experts here would know so I thought I'd ask here first.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
6,553
1,728
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
Honestly you're super heavy duty way over thinking this. Take it apart. I really do understand your apprehension and questions but you've already revealed this is and will remain a stock car. Nothing more than stock is really needed. Fix what's wrong. You won't know all that until you open it up.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Honestly you're super heavy duty way over thinking this. Take it apart. I really do understand your apprehension and questions but you've already revealed this is and will remain a stock car. Nothing more than stock is really needed. Fix what's wrong. You won't know all that until you open it up.
My view, backed by experience, is that it's better to overthink than underthink certain things, and I'd put this job in such a category. A little more work put in makes it more likely that I'll do the job properly and won't have to redo it in a year or two or have the trans blow up on me. And when you're new at something, the more you know, the better in my experience. Doesn't hurt, just delays things a bit. I'd rather not wing this.

So, anyway, double roll spring pins are for higher-power DSMs and/or ones that will be driven way harder than I'm likely to? That's all I really needed to know.

I'm pretty close to getting started. I just need to finish compiling a detailed list of steps and parts needed as I want to know exactly what needs to be done before I even get the car up on stands. Mostly this is so I'm more likely to get it right, but also because I want to minimize downtime where the car can't be used or even moved.

I'm going to be working on it on the street this time and where I live it's not uncommon to have to move your car for a few days so they can do work on the street or trees, which would be a major problem if the trans is out at the time.

Btw, speaking of overthinking/overdoing this, am I going to want to take apart, clean and rebuild the shift and select lever assemblies inside the trans and maybe replace some bushings or pins, or are those usually ok and don't need to be touched?
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Just use a M5x26mm roll pin from McMaster Carr - https://www.mcmaster.com/91611A312/

Or just use the OEM. - MD701722
Thanks Tim. I'll just go with OEM. $1.25 per and it's a stock HP car.

Btw after reviewing dealer repair invoices from over 25 years ago when the car was still under warranty, it looks like they replaced a bunch of parts, like gears, hub/sleeves, bearings, synchros, and eventually the entire trans itself, so I'm not necessarily going to be working on an actual mid-'92 AWD trans with mid-'92 AWD trans parts and I'll have to make sure that any replacement parts I get are compatible with what's actually in there.

The trans they ended up putting in was MD995651, if that's relevant. I don't believe that it's been opened up since, so that's what I'll probably be working on. Based on some quick googling this appears to be a rebuilt trans they put in cars with problem trans that were still under warranty, so who knows what's actually in there. I'll know when I open it up.
 

pauleyman

DSM Wiseman
6,553
1,728
Nov 19, 2011
oklahoma city, Oklahoma
My view, backed by experience, is that it's better to overthink than underthink certain things, and I'd put this job in such a category. A little more work put in makes it more likely that I'll do the job properly and won't have to redo it in a year or two or have the trans blow up on me. And when you're new at something, the more you know, the better in my experience. Doesn't hurt, just delays things a bit. I'd rather not wing this.

So, anyway, double roll spring pins are for higher-power DSMs and/or ones that will be driven way harder than I'm likely to? That's all I really needed to know.

I'm pretty close to getting started. I just need to finish compiling a detailed list of steps and parts needed as I want to know exactly what needs to be done before I even get the car up on stands. Mostly this is so I'm more likely to get it right, but also because I want to minimize downtime where the car can't be used or even moved.

I'm going to be working on it on the street this time and where I live it's not uncommon to have to move your car for a few days so they can do work on the street or trees, which would be a major problem if the trans is out at the time.

Btw, speaking of overthinking/overdoing this, am I going to want to take apart, clean and rebuild the shift and select lever assemblies inside the trans and maybe replace some bushings or pins, or are those usually ok and don't need to be touched?
You will want to take everything apart and clean it. Nothing to rebuild on the shift assemblies. Just have to see if they are worn or not. The ends that meet the select lever get worn and have visible grooves in them compared to a new unit.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Ok. The FSM says that the 2 needle bearings on the select shaft need to be replaced, along with several pins on the select/shift mechanism. Just wondering.
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
3,804
907
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The needle bearings on the shift selector shaft in the case almost never go bad. Look for wear of the shift lever arm plastic pad, that is higher wear.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
You mean the shoe? I was going to replace that. It's just that the FSM says that the needle bearing must be replaced if the shaft is removed.

What about the reverse selector shoe? Should that be replaced too?
 

twicks69

Supporting Vendor
3,804
907
Mar 12, 2004
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
The caged needle bearings for the shift selector shaft get zero wear unless it has had a horrible life. I have maybe replaced them in 1% of the transmissions I have worked on in 15+ years.

The reverse selector shoe on the reverse idler lever gets zero wear. Never replaced one ever.

Dude. Seriously just take apart the transmission. You will understand this a lot better than overthinking it.
 

XC92

Proven Member
716
93
Jul 22, 2020
Queens, New_York
Doing it this week. Had to put it off due to bad weather and other priorities including other cars I was working on, and also wanting to know as much as possible about the process going in to minimize down time and confusion. And the FSM does say replace all these parts.

But yeah, it's time to actually do it.
 
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