1G Rod knock advice from my DSM friends

[enriquez2000]

Short story.. after oil squirters falling out and getting some low pressure i fixed the issue... have great pressure but now there is low idle knocking.

Im on the search for a new block and crank so I can have a spare short block.

To my question..

This is most likely a main bearing issue. I have great oil pressure now. Would you tear the whole motor down and get things to the machine shop or just replace the bearings and call it good?

When I was in the bottom end fixing the squirters there was no play that i could tell but obviously the low pressure did enough.

 

[motomattx]

Its not likely your main bearings at all, its much more likely to be your rod bearings AND you had better pull your cam caps and check every one of them and the cam towers in the head also because they are likely to be damaged to some degree if there is bottom end bearing damage, but you may get lucky. I would start by pulling the rod bearing caps and giving the bearings a look and if you want opinions you can post the pictures of them on here.

 

[enriquez2000]

Its not likely your main bearings at all, its much more likely to be your rod bearings AND you had better pull your cam caps and check every one of them and the cam towers in the head also because they are likely to be damaged to some degree if there is bottom end bearing damage, but you may get lucky. I would start by pulling the rod bearing caps and giving the bearings a look and if you want opinions you can post the pictures of them on here.

While its out of the car this time ill pull the whole head off.. probably add cams as long as they are out so easy to inspect.

Rods had no play while I was in there which is why Im confused a bit. Also bad bearimgs usually mean bad ool pressure and I have 90ish cold and 25ish warm now that squirters are fixed

Either way has to come out again to be inspected.

 

[motomattx]

Good oil pressure NOW doesn't mean that the damage isn't already done from low oil pressure at some other time, bad bearings can most definitely still have good oil pressure on a running engine, also not noticing play in a rod is not a good indication of whether a bearing is shot or not, just that if you have play that you for sure have a spun bearing, sometimes you cant tell by feeling the rod play by hand at all.

 

[enriquez2000]

I know it doesnt mean there isnt previous damage... Here's what I'm dealing with, it smooths out as soon as I hit the throttle a bit

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Another weird thing I found is the guy who put my head together has 1 oddball rocker... maybe that went bad since it doesn't belong?

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[motomattx]

That rocker is stamped steel, possibly a cheap aftermarket part, the valve retainer is sus also but I cant tell without a picture from a different angle but it looks like it could also have been replaced by something aftermarket from the shine on it vs the others, so maybe this engine has had an issue in the past and was not put back together with care or knowledge.

 

[enriquez2000]

That rocker is stamped steel, possibly a cheap aftermarket part, the valve retainer is sus also but I cant tell without a picture from a different angle but it looks like it could also have been replaced by something aftermarket from the shine on it vs the others, so maybe this engine has had an issue in the past and was not put back together with care or knowledge.

The head was rebuilt by a "friend" when my bicep was torn. This same "friend" did something wrong with the oil squirters as well so they dropped out leading to all this.

Did you listen to the video? Seems weird it just goes away with slight throttle. Heres a couple more pics... does this show you anything... would br nice if its a stuck lifter or rockerbut im not sure now

Ps if it sits for a bit i can pish where tje lfter is and it makes a 1 time click then is gone

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[DSMPT]

just replace the bearings and call it good?

No absolutely not. This will never work. Bearing damage is like a time bomb. It's one way just going worse and worse until rebuild the engine.

1 oddball rocker

That's a EVO 7-9 rocker arm. Technically not ideal if mixed up with older rockers but it won't be an issue.

Seems weird it just goes away with slight throttle.

To me it sounds like the typical symptom of spun bearing at the beginning. When you open the throttle, you raise the oil pressure and the higher pressure would eliminate the knocking sound. After sometime you would start to hear the knocking sound more often and louder in wider range of engine speed. At that moment, the bearing is completely spun.

 

[enriquez2000]

No absolutely not. This will never work. Bearing damage is like a time bomb. It's one way just going worse and worse until rebuild the engine.

That's a EVO 7-9 rocker arm. Technically not ideal if mixed up with older rockers but it won't be an issue.

To me it sounds like the typical symptom of spun bearing at the beginning. When you open the throttle, you raise the oil pressure and the higher pressure would eliminate the knocking sound. After sometime you would start to hear the knocking sound more often and louder in wider range of engine speed. At that moment, the bearing is completely spun.

That was my fear.. time for a tear down im afraid.. while Its apart ill fix the rocker while its on the bench.

So youd recommend full machine shop, hot tank, honing and re-assembly with new bearings?

 

[DSMPT]

So youd recommend full machine shop, hot tank, honing and re-assembly with new bearings?

Yes, in case if the knocking sound is caused by bearing damage.
Many people think just replace the bearings can fix the spun bearings if the crank journal is clean. You get bearings new which means thicker. So you can eliminate the knocking sound for a while but it would be just for a while. You have already heard the knocking sound means, most of cases the rod big end roundness is not in spec anymore. So it doesn't really matter if you clean and polish the crank journals side by shoelace or sand paper etc etc. It won't work. You would spin the bearings sooner or later again until you recondition the rods.

One thing I am not clear is how was the "oil squirters falling out"? Broken nozzle? or the check valve got completely off? If the common broken nozzle, it wouldn't affect the oil pressure. So the cause may be different. But if the check valve was dropped off from block then yes, the engine had low oil pressure and it may have damaged the bearings.

 

[enriquez2000]

Yes, in case if the knocking sound is caused by bearing damage.
Many people think just replace the bearings can fix the spun bearings if the crank journal is clean. You get bearings new which means thicker. So you can eliminate the knocking sound for a while but it would be just for a while. You have already heard the knocking sound means, most of cases the rod big end roundness is not in spec anymore. So it doesn't really matter if you clean and polish the crank journals side by shoelace or sand paper etc etc. It won't work. You would spin the bearings sooner or later again until you recondition the rods.

One thing I am not clear is how was the "oil squirters falling out"? Broken nozzle? or the check valve got completely off? If the common broken nozzle, it wouldn't affect the oil pressure. So the cause may be different. But if the check valve was dropped off from block then yes, the engine had low oil pressure and it may have damaged the bearings.

No 2 literally dropped out tanking my oil pressure. The person I trusted to help me must have reused washers and no loctite. 1 of the 2 had the squirter crushed before it finally dropped. I was hoping I shut it down in time. Still had some oil pressure. Put new squirters in and pressures back to good but too late.

I know Ill probably need at least 1 new rod since it spun. Hoping the crank can be turned. Ill just take it all to the machine shop so they can tell me what I need.

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[DSMPT]

No 2 literally dropped out tanking my oil pressure.

Oh I see.

I was hoping I shut it down in time. Still had some oil pressure.

You may still have been able to see some pressure in the gauge, but it's because you are reading the oil pressure at OFH just right after oil pump, but oil squirters are on the main oil gallery just right before the crank and the hole is M12 size, so most of oil would be dumped out from the 2 M12 holes where don't have oil squirter check valve. And anywhere post-open holes would have had very little or no oil.

Ill just take it all to the machine shop so they can tell me what I need.

Yeah I think that's a good decision.

 

[enriquez2000]

Oh I see.

You may still have been able to see some pressure in the gauge, but it's because you are reading the oil pressure at OFH just right after oil pump, but oil squirters are on the main oil gallery just right before the crank and the hole is M12 size, so most of oil would be dumped out from the 2 M12 holes where don't have oil squirter check valve. And anywhere post-open holes would have had very little or no oil.

Yeah I think that's a good decision.

Pisses me off 1 idiot friend cost me a whole motor. But live and learn.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

When I bearing "spins", that rod will need resized so the bearing remains snug and the big end is perfectly round and in spec again as @DSMPT mentioned. This will make the assembly a bit unbalanced but if the machinist works slow, they won't remove to much material to get it perfect again.
Dam I hate to hear this. Mine being down is bad, a friends going down makes it worse.

 

[enriquez2000]

When I bearing "spins", that rod will need resized so the bearing remains snug and it is perfectly round again as @DSMPT mentioned.
Dam I hate to hear this. Mine being down is bad, a friends going down makes it worse.

DSM Life... I'll get it out and go from there. If the rod is toast I'll probably do rods and higher compression pistons this time. 10:1 on e85 sounds like a good time.

This time no one is helping me so I know what everything looks like in the motor.

Biggest fear is the crank being bad. I don't want to spend thee money on an Eagle one to have to turn around and have the machine shop make it work.

Anyone in Colorado want to have a motor party?

 

[motomattx]

Anyone in Colorado want to have a motor party?

I have to admit that I have attended by invitation more than one motor party myself that ended in the wee hours of the next day! good times. If you were at the DSM Shootout with this problem we would have that car rebuilt with another engine and probably a stroker setup in it by the next morning, been there done that more than once too. Best Western and vacationers were not amused the next morning needless to say.

 

[enriquez2000]

I have to admit that I have attended by invitation more than one motor party myself that ended in the wee hours of the next day! good times.

I can have the motor out in about 2 hours tops. Most of that is draining fluids and fighting the damn axle clips.

Miss having people to tag team with

 

[motomattx]

Yes but can you pull it out with your bare hands and install it with your bare hands? thats the trick at the shootout, and if it wasn't for WalMart being open 24 hours back then we would have been screwed, many trips were made there for tools and refreshments and then to return said tools after "renting" them for a few hours, their 24 hour tool rental program rocks.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Boy you sure have a way of making it sound "fun"....and it probably was.
If I've had help, it has always been one other person or it's just me.
2 hours is a good time if its over after 2 hours.
I am here for any help I can be, you know!
Do I need to get more meds from my dr and fly out???

 

[enriquez2000]

Yes but can you pull it out with your bare hands and install it with your bare hands? thats the trick at the shootout, and if it wasn't for WalMart being open 24 hours back then we would have been screwed, many trips were made there for tools and refreshments and then to return said tools after "renting" them for a few hours, their 24 hour tool rental program rocks.

Drop the subframe and you can do it from underneath with a couple floor jacks and stands

Definitely not what into these days

 

[enriquez2000]

Boy you sure have a way of making it sound "fun"....and it probably was.
If I've had help, it has always been one other person or it's just me.
2 hours is a good time if its over after 2 hours.
I am here for any help I can be, you know!
Do I need to get more meds from my dr and fly out???

As much as I appreciate it... lets save the travel for a friendly head to head race some day.

 

[motomattx]

Boy you sure have a way of making it sound "fun"....and it probably was.
If I've had help, it has always been one other person or it's just me.
2 hours is a good time if its over after 2 hours.
I am here for any help I can be, you know!
Do I need to get more meds from my dr and fly out???

The last one I was involved with at the shootout, the kid rolled into town from I think it was Idaho or somewhere far away with a 2.0 turbo, windowed the block Friday night, was racing on Sat with a 2.4 turbo that we built from parts that people brought to sell at the shootout, he didn't realize that he bought a 2.4 block until about 1am after I joined in and explained to him why his head gasket wasn't lining up on the block, we went ahead and built it as a stroker in the Best Western parking lot with guys tagging in and others tagging in and out all night, and he drove it all the way back home with no problems and last I heard it was still running good. He had an entire story on Dsmtalk about his experience.

 

[enriquez2000]

Machine shop FINALLY broke into the bottom end and said they didnt see any bearing issues. We were looking to make sure rods were still good.

There is no way that sound wasnt something knocking. It's irrelevant at this point since we are torn down to rebuild but any other ideas? My only thought is I caught it at just the start before everything went down hill

This one baffles me!

 

[SpankyStokes]

How did the oil look when drained? Also check your lifters.

 

[enriquez2000]

1st time like this

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