Road Racing: Nasa Vs Scca

[Slow old poop]

I am preparing my 90 GSX for NASA Time Trials (Class B) and NASA racing (unlimited class). A poster on another thread (the Building a Race Engine thread) said: "There is another class for the DSMs in NASA, at least here on the West coast. It is the equivilant of the SCCA ITS class. The DSMs aren't specificly listed but that's the class they put them in. Look up PS-0 (Pro Sedan) class on the NASA site."

I've made this into a new thread, to pursue it in more depth.

Does anyone know any more about this NASA Pro Sedan class for DSMs? I will get killed in Unlimited class, but might have a chance in that one. I have 48 points worth of mods (as NASA counts them) an all-steel body, and only a partially gutted interior.

Does anyone know anything about SCCA racing? Specifically, where does a modded DSM fit into the SCCA race classes?

I've tried to figure out the ITS class rules, but I gotta know what class I fit in before I can tell if my turbo or cage or whatever is legal. It seems that upgraded turbos are illegal in some classes but not others, and so on.

If it makes a difference, I am in Iowa, so I assume that's SCCA's CENDIV region.

Is anybody on this list doing any wheel-to-wheel racing in a DSM in anthing other than NASA's Unlimited class?

Rich

 

[Ludachris]

I just sent a note to our local NASA director to see if he has any insight on this. I know Scott Gray checks in here every now and then. Maybe he'd have some info on the SCCA side of things. I only know what I've been told, so I don't want to post any rumors or info that I don't know to be 100% correct. If I can get some answers for you, I'll post it here.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I've done some very similar research and am in IL.

You have to talk to our division. I haven't done this yet because my lack of money right now is putting my race car on hold. Basically differen regions will classify them differently. There is NO NATIONAL LEVEL SCCA class that allows modified evos, dsms, wrxs, or any other awd car.

So its basically up to the region to decide how they want to do it.

(By the way, when you do talk to someone, let me know what they say and how they "equalize" cars as far as modifications go)

 

[terefic181]

I am preparing my 90 GSX for NASA Time Trials (Class B) and NASA racing (unlimited class). A poster on another thread (the Building a Race Engine thread) said: "There is another class for the DSMs in NASA, at least here on the West coast. It is the equivilant of the SCCA ITS class. The DSMs aren't specificly listed but that's the class they put them in. Look up PS-0 (Pro Sedan) class on the NASA site."

Rich

Hey Rich, that was me. Here is the link I provided for you.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ps.pdf


This is an exerpt from it.

"Jan 2004
Ver. 5.1
Pro Sedan
A Series for Sport Coupes

...1. Pro Sedan Rules (PS)
** PS-0 is a special class and shall follow the current SCCA Improved Touring Category Specifications
(ITCS) rules in terms of allowed and required modifications for the ITS class. ...[Note: Some SCCA local regional classes refer to this as ITGT, ITE, ITSS, etc.]"

I was told by the National Chairman- Ryan Flaherty, that the car would be in the PS-0 class. This was in 04 thiugh, I guess there could have been some changes, but I don't think so. If you want the up to date low down, I would write Ryan and ask him. Here is an E-mail for him. [email protected], I haven,t mailed him in a while, so if this doesn't work let me know and I'll get a new one for you.

 

[Slow old poop]

I was told by the National Chairman- Ryan Flaherty, that the car would be in the PS-0 class. This was in 04 thiugh, I guess there could have been some changes, but I don't think so. If you want the up to date low down, I would write Ryan and ask him. Here is an E-mail for him. [email protected], I haven,t mailed him in a while, so if this doesn't work let me know and I'll get a new one for you.

I've sent emails to him and to two SCCA regional execs, asking where a modded DSM fits into NASA and SCCA If I get any responses, this list will be the first to know.

Rich

 

[mavisky]

I'm thinking the TTB class will be where my dsm will end up in NASA, haven't even looked at SCCA yet.

I just printed off the entire NASA rule book the other day, my that's a wordy little document. I've now got to make sure not to hose myself out of Street Modified though at the same time. Should prove to be fun going back and forth between the two.

 

[Slow old poop]

I got one response so far:


Rich-

The PS0 class was developed to include cars that fit into the SCCA's ITS and
ITE classes. We haven't developed many rules for the class, but the car
would have to meet local SCCA regs to be recognized as a PS0 car. Since
ITS/ITE varies so much from region to region, this is often tough to do!

So, with cars like this where we're not sure where they would class, we have
our Super Unlimited (SU) class. SU is for anything with the required safety
gear, but aside from that requirement you can do nearly anything.
Interestingly enough, a Plymouth Laser prepared to roughly TTA specs won SU
out here in SoCal this year. He wasn't the fastest guy, but he consistently
finished well and showed up to every weekend.

To end, you can run the car in SU with whatever bits you'd like to add and
you might be competitive depending on who shows up. We are going to try and
rework Pro Sedan for late 2006 and beyond, but for now you can run with us
in SU without a problem.

Thanks and please let me know if you have any other questions. I've also
cc:ed the NASA Midwest Director, Dave Royce, so he's clued in if you want to
contact him as well.

Take care and thanks for your interest.

-JWL

John Lindsey
NASA Chief Divisional Director

 

[Dream On]

I got one response so far:
Interestingly enough, a Plymouth Laser prepared to roughly TTA specs won SU
out here in SoCal this year. He wasn't the fastest guy, but he consistently
finished well and showed up to every weekend.

Go Greg!

 

[Slow old poop]

My correspondence with NASA.
I’m talking with John Lindsey, chief honcho, and Dave Royce, Midwest chairman.
Feel free to jump in, either here or directly to NASA at [email protected] and [email protected].

So far, all these guys are getting is my one-sided view of things. If you have something to add, please do. I think NASA really wants to do something for us, so tell 'em what you think.

My response to above message from John Lindsey:

John:
Thanks for your quick response.
I already knew I could run in Super Unlimited but, with my mods (48 points), I'll get killed in that class. I was hoping to find a class similar to B in NASA Time Trials, where I
would have a chance against similar cars. Pro Sedan sounds ideal. Maybe the local NASA chapter will let me in there (Dave?).

By the bye, there is a groundswell of interest in DSMs and 3000GTs running HPDEs. We had a horde of them at Road America (six 3000GTs and four DSMs) for the F-Body (ex-Speedseekers) event in October. If you consider that a marque, we were outnumbered only by Corvettes and BMWs. If NASA finds a place in road racing to put DSMs and 3000GTs (besides SU), we'll swell your entry lists in the Midwest. I already plan to run class B in your time trials and in a race class when you grant me a license.

Guys are building DSM and 3000GT cars all over the country for HPDEs, and
we are all looking for a place to run. Talk to Rudy about 3000GTs. As for
DSMs, you might want to peruse
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1723351#post1723351
Or go to www.dsmtuners.com and click on the Track Talk forum. You'll see that we are talking amongst ourselves, sharing prep information, and getting ready to do battle against Z06es, M3s and 911s. Believe it or not, a well-prepped DSM or 3000GT is the equal of those three cars (depends on the driver, of course) and may well provide the best performance/dollar than any other car running today. Give us a place to play!

Surely you've noted the increasing numbers of WRXes and Evos also showing up at HPDE events. If you are doing something for WRXes and Evos in a NASA race class, DSMs would fit into that class too.

As for the Laser that won in California, that is a full-race car, weighing less than 2,000 lb. My car is a steel-body Eclipse at 3200 lb, so we are miles apart in car prep. Nevertheless, Greg Collier is our hero: if he can win a championship with a DSM, there is hope for all of us.

Rich
---------------------------------------

At 02:45 PM 12/1/2005 -0800, John Lindsey wrote:
Rich-
Yep, we love Greg too and he has been able to do well in the Laser. As for a Mitsu-specific class, this is something we could do. However, I'd need a ton of help with rules as I don't really know how the different cars perform and what is reasonable for the different chassis. I've thought about a new Super Sedan class for AWD stuff, but I just haven't had time to work on it. My thought was that Audis, DSM's, Evo's and the Scoobys could all fit
here and get out of the PS0/SU lump.
Any thoughts?
John
-------------------------------
My response:
Give us race classes that compare to the TT classes: those TT rules are fair, and the cars are equal the way you've grouped them already. I'd feel comfortable in a TT Class B race class, with my steel-body car against cars with similar mods.

Maybe you'll want to have one or two TT/Race classes instead of 8 or 10. After all, anyone who preps an HPDE or TT car to meet NASA road race rules (roll cage and all that) will put performance mods on, too, which will eliminate all the lower TT classes, leaving only SU, A and/or B and/or C.

Maybe an A race class for TT A and B cars and a C class for all other TT groups is all you need. Call them Super Sedan A and C if you like, with SU remaining the catch-all for super-modified cars.

Or just one class, called Super Sedan, encompassing all cars that qualify according to your point system for TT classes A-F, and don't have a marque race class already. I don't think this poses a real hardship, because you have classes for marques like BMW, Porsche, Honda, etc. We'll be the catch-all class for cars of lesser mods.

All we really want is at least ONE race class that is less than SU, so we don't have to run against modded 2006 Z06es, $500,000 NASCAR road racers, and other super cars in SU.

I don't think you need a special class for Evos, WRXes, DSMs and 3000GTs right now, but you definitely need to find a place to put them where they will be competitive. Once cars start coming out of HPDEs to run NASA, then you can think about an AWD or Mitsu-specifc race class. Having way too many cars in a class will be a delightful problem to solve, especially in the Midwest where we have suffered from a dearth of entrants.

I am so happy that you are actually considering the problem!

I sold my 3000GT to buy the One Lap Eclipse so I could go NASA racing with a prepped car. I was into the 3000GT HPDE scene for five years, and saw it grow from a handful of guys to literally dozens of cars running HPDEs all over the country. Rudy Arias can tell you. Now that I am into DSMs, I see the same thing happening. NASA needs to embrace these people, encourage them, and help them get into serious racing by providing an upgrade path from HPDEs to TT to racing.

Rich

 

[mavisky]

Sounds like good stuff. I really like the idea of the TT B or A classes as opposed to having to build a collier-esque car to be competitive. Don't forget people, you can also check out the NASA forums over at www.nasaforums.com .

 

[mavisky]

Wow, looks like if I run the car as is. I'll be in TTC right now, with some race rubber I'll end up just into TTB, and if I finish out my mods list I'll be smack dab in TTA with the Ferarri's and whatnot .

43 points with 16" falkens, 51 points with 17" 245 khumo's on 17x8 or 9 wheels.

 

[drivemusicnow]

I did get into a much smaller conversation on the SCCA board about a similar such thing.

I agree that while we don't need a "awd turbo" only class right now, it might be a good way to go later.

I think the point system is the best way to do it, however it won't be easy because of the great difficulty in assessing points to equalize cars in the same "class". I think it may work, however some research and effort needs to be put in creating a "cover all" to make sure theres no car that just wins everything. I think that pro sedan doesn't quite work as it is fairly limited in engine modification, as well as wheel sizes and such.

However here is how I would set up the class if I could. I'd use a point system to generate 3 basic "classes" because stock cars can race in a bunch of other classes we don't need to worry about them, and completely modified cars race in SU we don't need to worry about them. So just adapting the point system to offer a street modified, track modified, and super modified racing classes would be ideal. I'd personally set it up such that street modified have to use street legal tires, however you could go with a straight point setup. I think you have to have some sort of "in class" equalizer due to there being only 3 classes. Maybe have to add weight, or some other type of equalizer. or you could just use all 8 classes or whatever, but I'm not sure you'd have the immediate interest for all of those classes.

You'd also get points based on number of cylinders, turbo, awd/fwd/rwd, etc (obviously AWD would be penalized slightly more than) I think weight should also be a factor. Possibly add in a point penalty for 200 lbs, then 400 lbs, then 600 lbs etc under an agreed "stock" weight.

These points added to the stock cars ability similar to the groupings in NASA TT would give you a broad range of cars, and lots of different directions as far as modifying them. You'd have to keep some options open as far as making sure the point system gives a somewhat equal playing field, however with some effort I think it really wouldn't be that hard. This would allow all the AWD turbo cars, as well as modified BMWs, and If setup correctly would allow those people to have a competitive place to race.

Do you think the above would be possible? The problem I see with most race series is the fact that they concentrate on getting similar cars modified in the same fashion. I think you should have lots of different types of cars, modified differently, that have similar track times together.

 

[Slow old poop]

Wow, looks like if I run the car as is. I'll be in TTC right now, with some race rubber I'll end up just into TTB, and if I finish out my mods list I'll be smack dab in TTA with the Ferarri's and whatnot . 43 points with 16" falkens, 51 points with 17" 245 khumo's on 17x8 or 9 wheels.

Keep those cards and letters coming, folks.

With Mavisky (above), it looks like we have at least two DSMs ready for Midwest NASA race events, and both of us are looking for a class less than SU. I bet there's lots more out there who are ready to move up from HPDEs to TTs to race events. NASA could be the place for us to go. If you think so too, please chime in with emails to NASA (copy us here) to show your support for such a sub-SU race class.

If NASA thinks there are a half-dozen Midwestern DSMs ready to race, we'll get a class. Same applies to other regions.

By the bye, if you are just lurking out there and wondering WTF this is all about, check out this HPDE video, taken at Road America in 2003:
http://supercar-engineering.com/Road_America03/RA_follow_Rich+fatigue+breakn_rim.wmv

That's me in the black 3000GT VR4 passing the 3000GT camera car, then the red Cobra R, 15 seconds into the video. My DSM is as fast as those two 3000GTs were in 2003.

DSMs are the best track car for the money, and you can improve them a little bit at a time, as the budget permits, and just go faster and faster until you are ready for actual racing. If NASA gives us an upgrade path like we're talking about, you can go from a bone stock car to a Greg Collier-class car for less money than with any other track car I can think of. That's one reason I got rid of my 3000GT.

Stop lurking. Get on track with us.

Rich

 

[drivemusicnow]

When I added it up before for my car I was going to be at about +53 points as well. But right now I'm at about -25 (I figure you get at least -30 points for no engine right? )

 

[mavisky]

Keep those cards and letters coming, folks.

With Mavisky (above), it looks like we have at least two DSMs ready for Midwest NASA race events, and both of us are looking for a class less than SU. I bet there's lots more out there who are ready to move up from HPDEs to TTs to race events. NASA could be the place for us to go. If you think so too, please chime in with emails to NASA (copy us here) to show your support for such a sub-SU race class.

If NASA thinks there are a half-dozen Midwestern DSMs ready to race, we'll get a class. Same applies to other regions.

By the bye, if you are just lurking out there and wondering WTF this is all about, check out this HPDE video, taken at Road America in 2003:
http://supercar-engineering.com/Road_America03/RA_follow_Rich+fatigue+breakn_rim.wmv

That's me in the black 3000GT VR4 passing the 3000GT camera car, then the red Cobra R, 15 seconds into the video. My DSM is as fast as those two 3000GTs were in 2003.

DSMs are the best track car for the money, and you can improve them a little bit at a time, as the budget permits, and just go faster and faster until you are ready for actual racing. If NASA gives us an upgrade path like we're talking about, you can go from a bone stock car to a Greg Collier-class car for less money than with any other track car I can think of. That's one reason I got rid of my 3000GT.

Stop lurking. Get on track with us.

Rich

My big problem is that I still need to get some equipment into the car, and probably won't be running any time trial events until next year as I've not even done so much as a HPDE event with NASA yet. This year will probably be spent doing autocross and a couple HPDE days, I just don't want to hose myself on modifications for these TT days. Another thing between the TT events and actual racing is the difference in safety regulations within the CCR. With the TT events I can wear long pants and an approved helmet, to step up requires a full racing suit, shoes, gloves, fire system and other stuff that I may or may not have yet. All which adds up to about another $1500 or so in extras for just safety stuff. Not to mention different cage restrictions.

Hopefully my HPDE days will move quickly as I've had some on track experience along with the auto crossing experience.

 

[D_Eclipse9916]

Awesome good to hear that we might be getting a little leeway on classes instead of just being thrown into SU. Way to go, keep us updated. There are a lot of dsmers that are just discovering autocross, TT, and HPDE events across the nation and having our asses wooped up on race-prepped cars feels unfair, and is one of the reasons I am not big into that yet. I am staying into autocross to not only fully develop my skills but also because I dont nearly have the money to invest in track time yet.

 

[Slow old poop]

My big problem is that I still need to get some equipment into the car, and probably won't be running any time trial events until next year as I've not even done so much as a HPDE event with NASA yet. This year will probably be spent doing autocross and a couple HPDE days, I just don't want to hose myself on modifications for these TT days. Another thing between the TT events and actual racing is the difference in safety regulations within the CCR. With the TT events I can wear long pants and an approved helmet, to step up requires a full racing suit, shoes, gloves, fire system and other stuff that I may or may not have yet. All which adds up to about another $1500 or so in extras for just safety stuff. Not to mention different cage restrictions. Hopefully my HPDE days will move quickly as I've had some on track experience along with the auto crossing experience.

Maybe I don't understand the whole deal yet, but it was my understanding that TTs ARE HPDEs, and you can run TTs with a basically stock car if you want. This lets autocrossers like D_Eclipse9916 give it a try without a big fat expense for car prep.

As I understand it, the only difference between a regular HPDE (like with the BMW or Porsche clubs) and a NASA HPDE/TT is that, in a TT, you can pass anywhere. If this is not correct, somebody explain. NASA rules are very confusing. For example, it took me forever to understand their class system, and why TT classes don't apply in race classes.

I am in the same boat as you. My car is not legal for race events, but it should be OK for TTs. You also have to have a license to race, and you get that by running a TT with a NASA observer on board who certifies you. We'll be working on legalizing the Eclipse for NASA and SCCA racing this winter, but I could run a TT right now if I wanted. Well, after I put the engine back in, that is.

There was some discussion floating around the paddock that you have to run a certain number of HPDEs to qualify for TT, but I understand that NASA waives that requirement most of the time. If they rigidly enforced all their rules in the Midwest, they wouldn't have ANY cars running. They don't have many cars now, but maybe if they make themselves attractive to DSMs, we'll swell their entry lists.

Rich

 

[drivemusicnow]

Maybe I don't understand the whole deal yet, but it was my understanding that TTs ARE HPDEs, and you can run TTs with a basically stock car if you want. This lets autocrossers like D_Eclipse9916 give it a try without a big fat expense for car prep.

As I understand it, the only difference between a regular HPDE (like with the BMW or Porsche clubs) and a NASA HPDE/TT is that, in a TT, you can pass anywhere. If this is not correct, somebody explain. NASA rules are very confusing. For example, it took me forever to understand their class system, and why TT classes don't apply in race classes.

I am in the same boat as you. My car is not legal for race events, but it should be OK for TTs. You also have to have a license to race, and you get that by running a TT with a NASA observer on board who certifies you. We'll be working on legalizing the Eclipse for NASA and SCCA racing this winter, but I could run a TT right now if I wanted. Well, after I put the engine back in, that is.

There was some discussion floating around the paddock that you have to run a certain number of HPDEs to qualify for TT, but I understand that NASA waives that requirement most of the time. If they rigidly enforced all their rules in the Midwest, they wouldn't have ANY cars running. They don't have many cars now, but maybe if they make themselves attractive to DSMs, we'll swell their entry lists.

Rich

Before you even look at NASA's rules you need to read all of the SCCA Club Racing rules first.

I think the biggest problem with club racing today is the fact that like I said before, racing classes are very very limited by modifications and cars in an attempt to make it a "drivers race" rather than a "wallet race". I personally think that instead of writing up 30 pages of what you can and cannot do to a mustang, we'd be better off figuring out each car and how points should be assessed to it, such that a track prepped dsm can race against a slightly modded new z06, a heavily modded fox body, a modded BMW m3, and a track prepped 3000gt and have them ALL be competitive in the race.

If that could be done, then I think you'd see a LOT more people out racing. just because they can take their weekend car, add a cage, fire suppression, other required saftey things and race, competitively, wheel to wheel.

Just creating a new class entirely for awd turbos doesn't address the original problem.

 

[mavisky]

Yea the TT's are usually run with the HPDE events, which is nice. As you mentioned the Time Trial area is definitely the area for me, but after awhile I'd like to move into actual competition and there isn't much area for us outside of HPDE and TT days.

I agree that the scca is a little too rigid at times and is tuned more to the cars of the past in my opinion. Hell the simple fact that a mbc on a completely stock car moves you into the street mod category is bs in autox. DSM's are down quite a few hp to stuff like wrx's and in stock form don't stand a chance, but with a points system both the dsm'er and he wrx could add a couple of modifications and end up in the same class competitively in something like stx or stu. Instead they stick to their rigid guidelines of what can and can't be used. NASA has a big jump on them in this area and from some of what I've read the NASA X (autocross) is gaining popularity for this reason as well. It lets more cars stay competitive. For instance if you had 24 points to spend on mods, a bmw or miata could chase a little more power if need be, where as a mustang or evo could focus more on suspension to help put down the power they're already making. I don't see myself ever being attracted to road racing in the SCCA as there's no real interesting class to run in.

Right now if I was to go professionally racing I'd be very interested in either Speedvision's Touring class or NASA's USTCC. SCCA offers nothing like these two classes when it comes to variety of entrants.

 

[Greg Collier]

Wow, you guys are going to town... how cool is this

Here's the story;

NASA HPDE has (4) run groups from beginning to advanced. Each run group up to the forth has limited passing (on the straights only), HPDE-4 has open passing anywhere on the track.

NASA would like for you to attend the HPDE group, (starting from 1-4) for a year to hone your driving skills. They have instructors if you need them to help you increase your learning curve. If you prove to the instructor that you are a more advanced driver they will put you into HPDE 3 or 4 within a couple of events.

If you are a skilled HPDE-4 driver, you can join the Time Trial (TT) group, which is like HPDE-4 but your actually running against other drivers for the best time. The TT group keeps points for each event and at the end of the year your points tally will win you a 1st-2nd-3rd place trophy.

At this point if you wish to wheel to wheel race, you'll take the race driving school course, get a provision license, then run 8 races to prove you won't kill anybody or yourself on the track, and a race license will be issued.

HPDE and TT only requires are car in good shape, lap belts, and a helmet.

By the way Greg Greenbaum is the head of the national Time Trials. Any questions regarding this series should be directed to him...
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=2&sid=5ee39d90a63b9eb858bb4bbf46dfed38

Racing wheel to wheel requires all the expensive safety goodies, roll cage, fire suppression, 6pt. belts, window net, etc.

If you can get enough DSM people interested in a race group, NASA will work with you in making that group official. I've already discussed this a couple of years ago with both John Lindsey and Ryan Flaherty and they said come up with a plan. SCCA is way to rigid, and if it's not already a policy then good luck!

Greg

 

[mavisky]

My problem is that I've removed the stock harnesses in the talon for some 4 points for autocrossing, these aren't HPDE legal so I either need to install the stock ones which I've pitched or install 5 point harnesses.

I also modified my seats to mount the harnesses. Still haven't heard back from them on this subject, but my guess will be a no go. Since I'd have to replace them there's no point in not getting an FIA approved seat while I'm doing it. The problem is that these seats are fixed back. Fixed back seats require a roll cage to keep you from crushing yourself during a rollover.

Then add to this that I'll be doing HPDE1 and will need an instructor, the instructor needs the same safety equipment as the driver so that's another FIA approved seat and 5 point harness.

If i'd just left the stock seats and belts in the car I'd be fine, but I couldn't keep myself in the damn seat with those worthless excuses for seat belts and seats. At least the 4 points allowed me to smash myself into the seat enough that I stay in the seat for the most point.

Sounds like I'll be looking at at least 4 hpde events which run about $300 a piece, then add in the autox's at $20 x 8 events. Looks like half my money will be going to just getting into the events and not to modifying the car for faster lap times Oh well, if there's one thing I've learned so far in motorsports its that seat time is the best modification you can ever spend money on.

 

[Greg Collier]

Sounds like I'll be looking at at least 4 hpde events which run about $300 a piece, then add in the autox's at $20 x 8 events. Looks like half my money will be going to just getting into the events and not to modifying the car for faster lap times Oh well, if there's one thing I've learned so far in motorsports its that seat time is the best modification you can ever spend money on.

Kyle,
Four events is for Sat and Sun, so it's a total of 8 days of track time. You can do a one day event for $150 if you want to save some money. Seat time is the most valuable thing you can do in the beginning. Once you have four events under your belt I'll bet you'll figure out where to get the money for more... It's like a frigging drug

 

[Slow old poop]

Looks like NASA is getting ready to give us a place to rock n roll, in the Midwest at least.
SCCA has yet to respond to any messages, so it looks like NASA is our best bet for a rational progression from HPDE to TT to race class for DSMs.

Here's a response from the Midwest director:
--------------------------
Rich,
We would be more than happy to figure out a way give you a competitive
place to run. I'll discuss this with John and get back with you soon.

Thanks for your e-mail and feel free to call me anytime.

Dave Royce
NASA Midwest Director
310-739-9205
-------------------------

If you racers and potential racers and HPDErs have ANYTHING to add to this discussion, feel free to jump in, either here or directly to NASA at [email protected] and [email protected]. A little support would be nice, especially if you say you'll run NASA if they give us a place to play.

Whatever they come up with we'll have to live with, so speak up.
All they have to go on right now are my one-sided opinions, and I'm not even a racer! I'm just a wannabe racer looking for a place to go.

And, if you DSMers across the country don't speak up, you might get left out in the cold whilst the Midwest NASA goes forward. The other regions might take a year or more to catch up.

Crikies, I feel like a cheerleader here.

Fight fiercely, DSMers!
Fight, fight, fight!
Demonstrate to them our skill.
Albeit NASA possesses the might,
Nonetheless we have the will.
--Adapted from "Fight Fiercely Harvard" by Tom Lehrer

Rich

 

[terefic181]

I have one question.

Has anyone looked at any SCCA ITE rules as they apply to NASA PS-0, and if so what are your objections to anything in them ? I do understand they can vary across the nation according to region, but take a look at this one from Oregon http://www.oregonscca.com/roadrace/2005/2005ITE.doc and see what you think before we remake the wheel. I've been going by these rules for my car prep over the last 5 years, and they have been evolving during that time. Going back to 2000, you had to keep all your internal engine stock, and as you can see, it's far from that, at this point. With these rules you can change to a 6 bolt if you like, run any clutch set up, LSD, brakes, hood, rear deck, fuel and ignition engine managment systems, camshafts, pistons and rods, head porting, aftermarket suspension, bumper covers, and all wheel cars are allowed. One of the things that I would like to see changed, that NASA added, is the minmum 7" wheel rule.


My thought is that, it's possible that John [isn't /wasn't] aware of the DSM's being placed in PS-0, since none have run there (to my knowledge, here on the west coast) over the last 4 years. I do know that Kent Jordan ran in PS-0 last year in an EVO. I also know at the time ('04) when I had my car teched for racing, that Ryan new exactly what the car was and what they were capable of, because of the RRE cars, and there was no question as to what class my car was going into.

I looked at both SCCE and NASA back in 2000. The only class the SCCA had was the GT class because there were no provisions for tubo'd cars, which meant there would be tube frame cars and the like. I was then directed to NASA by Mike Welch from RRE.


I got a reply from NASA on Friday, that Ryan was at the 25hrs of Thunderhill, so I'm awaiting Ryans return, to see what he recalls from my '04 tech.

"Hi Tom,

Ryan is away at the 25 hour Enduro at Thunderhill until Monday. I will send him your email then.

Best regards,

Evyan M. Ruiz
NASA SoCal Registrar
s s s s s s s s
Phone s 310-772-8202
Fax s 310-943-1766
www.nasaproracing.com"



Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

I sent questions on car classification for DSMs to the REs at the two closest SCCA regions to me -- Central and Midwest-- but they have not answered so far.

I would like to run both SCCA regionals and NASA race events, especially since NASA tends to cancel its events at the drop of a hat around here. The problem is, as you noted, the rules for ITE, ITS and so on change from region to region. The Oregon rules look interesting, but there's no guarantee that any other regions will follow them.

I would be happy to prep my car for both SCCA and NASA, but I gotta know what class I'll go into before I can read the rules and figure out what they want me to do for any given class.

Before long, I hope we can start a thread here on NASA/SCCA car prep. There's lots of stuff to talk about, such as onboard fire extinguishers, external ignition switches, and so on. Problem is, I don't know what to ask yet, because I don't know what NASA or SCCA classes we'll run in.

What we really need is a Road Racing sub-list of our own within Track Talk, so our race threads don't get lost among all the drag racing war stories. I dearly love the drag racers (done a little bit myself), but our few posts get lost in there. For starters, we could populate the road race list by pulling all of Greg Collier's posts out of the archives and sticking them in there.

Anybody else want a road race sub-list in Track Talk?
Moderators? Is it possible?

Rich