NASA Road Racing Classification and Qualification Questions

[Atuca]

I have a few questions I am having troulbe finding answers to.

First off, I want to confirm I have an understanding of the qualification to race in NASA TT events. Classification of the car aside, to register for a TT event, a driver needs to have a current NASA membership, and have been signed off for HPDE-4? That's what I understand from page 4 of the rule book:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf

After that, you are given a TT liscense and you are forever good to go (long as you compete in two events a year)?

If I am good on that, check, lets move on.

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Spectators and pit crew

I don't see anywhere on the website sign up webpage anything about spectators and pit crew. If I have people that just want to watch me (or more likely the actual competing vehicles ) is there a cost or sign up they need to do?

What about "pit crew" type people, those I wish with me and the car prepping it before my HPDE sessions. I have the intention of doing alot of double checking between runs, looking over ECU logs, and recording audio and video with gopro's and microphones, all of which between sessions will need to be put onto a labtop, batteries for camera's swapped, ect ect. See where I am going with this? I could use a hand, what's the rules on this, and where do I sign them up? Do they need to be NASA members just to be around the car in the hot pits, are they limited to the cold pits?



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Classification

Now this is a much harder question to get an understanding of. What is confusing me is there is classification based off a B-F (which includes TTB, TTC, TTD, TTE, TTF) AND there is a classification based off TT1, TT2, TT3. Then there is TTR, TTU, and TTS.

Can someone please help me to understand those class break ups.

*edit*

Spooning anyone else reading this thread at a later date:

The Weight/HP Ratio limits for classifying - 2013

TTU UNLIMITED
TT1 5.50:1
TT2 8.00:1
TT3 9.00:1
TTB 10.25:1
TTC 12.00:1
TTD 14.25:1
TTE 16.50:1
TTF 19.50:1

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If I am allowed one more question, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book that talks about radiator support removal, modifying radiator mounting locations, and addition of custom tubular radiator support beam (and FMIC mount). For the front bumper I am using, it is imperitive that it is sturdily mounted to the frame of the car, so I think it would be great to have a tubular front to mount the bumper to, and allow me to mount the FMIC and radiator at an angle so I can create a ducting system similar to Beau and the EMS TTX Evo. (adding photos for those who are not familure with this car).

Anyone got any idea what that means as far as points, and what class that may put me into (the "tubular frame rail strengthing" scares me into thinking bad things..) Idealy, I do not want to race is the highest class to start off with if I can help it.. the Sierra Sierra Evo might be faster then me.. just maybe..

p.s. I understand I have several events, maybe a dozen, before I am ready to competitvely race, but I do not want to do something to my car that may be illegal (and irreversable) and force me to buy another car to race when the time comes...

p.p.s. the car the modifications are being done to is 100% race only.

Thanks! Trying to absorb as much as I can!

 

[snowborder714]

First off, I want to confirm I have an understanding of the qualification to race in NASA TT events. Classification of the car aside, to register for a TT event, a driver needs to have a current NASA membership, and have been signed off for HPDE-4?

Correct. You go through HPDE 4, get approval to compete in TT, compete a day in TT, then either have your application accepted, pushed, or denied.

I don't see anywhere on the website sign up webpage anything about spectators and pit crew. If I have people that just want to watch me (or more likely the actual competing vehicles ) is there a cost or sign up they need to do?

What about "pit crew" type people, those I wish with me and the car prepping it before my HPDE sessions. I have the intention of doing alot of double checking between runs, looking over ECU logs, and recording audio and video with gopro's and microphones, all of which between sessions will need to be put onto a labtop, batteries for camera's swapped, ect ect. See where I am going with this? I could use a hand, what's the rules on this, and where do I sign them up? Do they need to be NASA members just to be around the car in the hot pits, are they limited to the cold pits?

This will depend on the event I believe. I think some events you can roll in for free and watch, while other larger ones will require an entry fee. You'll want to check with the track on the specific event you're considering running in for more info. There's usually no form or anything they need to fill out, but there's certain areas spectators can't go (i.e. staging lanes sometimes).

Classification

Now this is a much harder question to get an understanding of. What is confusing me is there is classification based off a B-F (which includes TTB, TTC, TTD, TTE, TTF) AND there is a classification based off TT1, TT2, TT3. Then there is TTR, TTU, and TTS.

Can someone please help me to understand those class break ups.

What do you want to know about them? There's a lot of info on all the classes, so it'd be best if you provided some more specifics. If you're trying to place your car in a class, we'd need to know what mods you plan on running with, and also your power to weight ratio, as this comes into play.

FWIW, John runs in TTU with his car and is putting down about 430hp and is pretty heavy (close to stock weight).

If I am allowed one more question, I cannot find anywhere in the rule book that talks about radiator support removal, modifying radiator mounting locations, and addition of custom tubular radiator support beam (and FMIC mount). For the front bumper I am using, it is imperitive that it is sturdily mounted to the frame of the car, so I think it would be great to have a tubular front to mount the bumper to, and allow me to mount the FMIC and radiator at an angle so I can create a ducting system similar to Beau and the EMS TTX Evo. (adding photos for those who are not familure with this car).

Anyone got any idea what that means as far as points, and what class that may put me into (the "tubular frame rail strengthing" scares me into thinking bad things..) Idealy, I do not want to race is the highest class to start off with if I can help it.. the Sierra Sierra Evo might be faster then me.. just maybe..

Since you're talking about Andrew's front bumper, you should reconsider the duct system. I believe he did some testing to find out it wasn't necessary or possibly not optimal to use a setup like Beau's with a bumper/hood like that. I know I've spoken with John about it before, so make sure to talk with Andrew before getting too far down that path.

As for how many points, I read the rule book again and it's not quite clear. I'd look for a contact in your region that you could e-mail/call and have them help you with that question. They're very friendly and more than willing to help make sure you understand the rules.

 

[Atuca]

Classifiying my car was to come after I define the classes, lets get to that after we talk about defining a bit.

They group the rules seperately for the TTB, TTC, TTD, TTE, TTF from TT1, TT2, TT3 from TTR, TTU, and TTS. When I was looking to try and classify my car, there were different classification rules for these sets of classes. One used the HP to weight, another had points you added up. Or maybe I need to do both? I am confused in the sense of the progression of one class to the next.

IIRC John ran in TTU, so does that put him above all the TTB-F classes, or is the TTR/U/S a seperate class progression? Basicly, the way I understand class progression is you have the base class your car is from the factory, then you start adding points. The rules say there is no limit how many classes you can jump up, but what do you jump to after TTB? Does it go TTB->TTA->TT1->TT2->TT3->TTR->TTU->TTS

or does the progression end at TTA, and begin a new classification system with the HP/Weight instead of points.

.... Jesus I sound really confused, but that is why I am asking



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I have Andrew's aero kit, surprise was spoiled few days ago, just wasn't trying to "brag" here, but I suppose it is relevant to my question. Andrew said no reason to not duct. However, he said that the hood was designed to allow more air to escape out it then the front of the car would let in. So.. the ducting itself would merely be routing the air where it should be going anyways. I havn't crossed that bridge quite yet, but what is important regardless is the support and mounting location for the bumper cover. It needs to be integrated in the frame rails somehow. He said I could use aluminum strapping as a method of securing it; I wanted to look into mounting a tubular radiator support beam and have it tied into a bumper mounting location.

you know.. that discussion I'll drag to my build thread; my point here for this thread would be what is the point assesment for a tubular front, and can I just remove the stock radiator support?

 

[snowborder714]

A '99 GSX will start out with a base class of TTE* and recorded weight of 3270 lbs.

This info will be helpful, and may potentially answer the tubular front end question you had (would have to confirm with an official though as to what is actually considered a "tube frame conversion").

The TTS class is the "Super" class for production vehicles originally built and approved by the DOT, TUV, and Japanese government for street use, that meet the listed "Adjusted" Weight/Power ratio of 8.70:1 or higher, and that retain their original OEM frame rails (or unibody), strut towers, floorpan, and
subframe (no tube frame conversions).

TTU is the "Unlimited" class for production cars with the same requirements as TTS, but with a much lower "Adjusted" Weight/Power ratio limit of 5.50:1.

"Adjusted" weight to power ratios for each class:

TTU 5.50:1
TTS 8.70:1
TTA 8.70:1
TTB 10.25:1
TTC 12.00:1
TTD 14.25:1
TTE 16.50:1
TTF 19.50:1

Some info on how you move up through the A-H classes:

6.4 Up-Classing System (TTA-TTF only)
Modifications and Point Assessments:
If your car accrues 20 or more points you will be bumped up in Class. There is no limit - a car with a high level of modifications might move up several Classes.
20 thru 39 points - Up ONE Class
40 thru 59 points - Up TWO Classes
60 thru 79 points - Up THREE Classes
80 thru 99 points - Up FOUR Classes
100 thru 119 points - Up FIVE Classes
120 thru 139 points - Up SIX Classes
140 thru 159 points - Up SEVEN Classes
160 thru 179 points - Up EIGHT Classes

One (1) asterisk * on a base class assignment denotes a 7 point initial assessment, and two (2) asterisks ** denotes a 14 point initial assessment that is added to the total number of modification points to determine the final competition class.

FORCED INDUCTION VEHICLES will add an additional five (+5) points to the total number of modification points to determine the final competition class. (Forced induction vehicles that have been classed or e-classed by the National TT Director based on Dyno testing are exempt from this additional five (+5) point assessment.)

From there you go through all the listings and add up all the points you have to see how many classes you have to move up as you head towards the top - TTA. And once you accumulate either enough points to push yourself out of TTA or exceed the weight to power ratio for TTA, then you enter the "SUR" categories (TTS, TTU, and TTR).



For example, my car weighs 2906 with driver and pushes about 300hp (estimated via link), which gives me a weight to power ratio of 9.69. That'd immediately jump me from TTE to TTA. I'd also probably have to go and see if adding up points would push me further, but I'd guess not. So at a minimum I'd be in TTA, if not bumped up to TTS for some other reasons that I'd have to investigate further. Or I could choose to dial the power back to hit a 10.25 ratio and put my car in TTB (or add ballasts to get the weight up). All depends on how you want to play the game.

 

[Atuca]

so what about TT1, TT2, TT3 and TTR?

The sign up sheet on NASA's website has the following:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/event/1542

TT1
TT2
TT3
TTB
TTC
TTD
TTF
TTU

Little different then you just explained. (and no TTA in the drop down list)

Just trying to get a complete understanding. You helped clarifying it is either a point system or a HP/weight. Suppose in all honesty adjusting boost could give a good 100 hp variance at the turn of a knob for down classing eh?

But basicly, I need to figure out points AND hp/weight and w/e one pushes me higher, is the class I end up in.

What is the top dog class? Fastest of the fastest, sierra seirra type class? I thought those cars (like andrew's) where 700ish+ HP

3000lbs / 700hp = 4.28

Where do they end up? TTR is my guess? I am guessing at that points the points don't matter, so they do w/e they want to the car? or are their still things they can't do?

 

[snowborder714]

I don't see TT1-3 in that document anywhere. Do you have a specific page you saw it on (maybe I overlooked it)?

Yes, adjusting boost could bump you up a few classes in just a couple turns. One reason John wanted to get on a dyno before his event to make sure he didn't push himself into a ridiculous class.

From the way they worded it, whichever way pushes you higher is the way you need to go, whether it's points or weight to power ratio.

TTR is the unlimited class (not to be confused with TTU, and the U standing for unlimited). TTR is where you'll find purpose built, never driven on the road, tube frame, monocoque, and ridiculous weight to power ratio cars. This class has no max power or minimum weight limits, but if you push out of the ratio/points for TTU, you'll end up in this class. Then you can pretty much go buck wild with the car (other than driver/passenger side fixed/Lexan windows, unless they came that way from the factory) as long as it'll pass NASA inspection.

Andrew doesn't do NASA TT racing as far as I'm aware. They compete in Redline Time Attack type events which have a slightly different rule book. But yes, if he were to compete in TT, the car would end up in TTR.


Edit: Added TTS and TTU ratios to my above post. Interesting that the TTA and TTS ratios are the same. I wonder why.

 

[Atuca]

on the NASA event sign up page.

National Auto Sport Association - nasaproracing.com

go down to time trial and look at the option to sign up for:

TT1
TT2
TT3
TTB
TTC
TTD
TTF
TTU

 

[snowborder714]

Found this on another form from their site. Looks like they might've updated the class naming since March 2012 when that rule set was written. This new form has a 2013 date on the top.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_classification-sur.pdf

TT1 5.50:1
TT2 8.00:1
TT3 9.00:1


Here's a listing for TTB-TTF classification that's pretty much a checklist if anyone would be interested in it.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_classification.pdf

 

[Atuca]

So, I am still not seeing how TTS, TTU, and TTR and TT1, TT2, TT3 differ.

Are they one and the same, in which case.. which ratios do we use, the ones you posted for TTU 5.50:1, TTS 8.70:1, or the ones on this other sheet TT1 5.50:1, TT2 8.00:1 ,TT3 9.00:1

 

[snowborder714]

As I mentioned, the rule book we're looking at was last updated in March of 2012. That's almost a year ago. And seeing as you can't sign up to be in TTA, TTR, or TTS, just ignore the info that's posted about them.

I can send an e-mail to my region rep and see if there may be a new rule book that's waiting to be published, or why the anomaly between the two sources. Or I can even PM a guy on here that's been doing NASA stuff for a while and might know why the data is inconsistent.

Edit: Or just do a quick Google search and find the reclassing info I was eluding to
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=66933&start=0

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[Atuca]

Oh jeeze, so everything I thought I didn't know doesn't even matter now.

Ok.

So then I wonder what TTU is now then, if they got it grouped up at the bottom.

3000lbs / 375hp = TT2 8.00:1

That seems awfully low HP to be the second highest class... Maybe the adjusting with the form changes that alot, will have to play with it a bit.




PWN @ pic HAHAHAAHAHAHA BWAA i am seriously busting up over here!

Let me do the playing, wouldn't want your hand to get tired holding the spoon up... OL

one of the guys on the NASA website posted an excel sheet to help with classifying the ST classes, but was told TTU, 1, 2, 3 guy can use it for car classing. By the way he stated it, TTU is still a class in use.

http://949racing.com/server/tech/NASA_ST_Class_Calculator_2013_v0_01.xlsx

 

[snowborder714]

So then I wonder what TTU is now then, if they got it grouped up at the bottom

From the first post in the link I gave you:

Old TT Class (Old ST or PT Class) -> New TT Class (New ST Class)

TTR (SU) -> TTU (SU) unlimited
TTU (ST1) -> TT1 (ST1) 5.50lb/hp adjusted (no change in ratio)
TTS (ST2) -> TT2 (ST2) 8.00lb/hp adjusted (was 8.70)
TTA (PTA) -> TT3 (ST3) 9.00lb/hp adjusted w/o aero - or - 9.50lb/hp adjusted with aero (change from PT style rules to ST style rules as well)

Old TTU = new TT1.
New TTU = old TTR (i.e. fully unlimited class)

Yes, TTU is still in use. As I mentioned before, TTA (now TT3), TTR (now TTU), and TTS (now TT2) are no longer used.

So this season John will hopefully not still be in TTU or he'll be up against the big boys. He'll probably be down in TT1 with a ratio around 7.2 (assuming a 3250 lb. car and ~450hp).




One moment while I go grab a bigger spoon...

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[Atuca]

Redline Time Attack rule book is looking pretty good to me right about now.. So much easier to classify the car there.

https://www.redlinetimeattack.com/images/2013RedlineTimeAttackRulesV3D1.9.pdf

jesus.. least you know what to get me for Xmas this year, BRING ON TEH SPOON!

Spooning anyone else reading this thread at a later date:

The Weight/HP Ratio limits for classifying

TTU UNLIMITED
TT1 5.50:1
TT2 8.00:1
TT3 9.00:1
TTB 10.25:1
TTC 12.00:1
TTD 14.25:1
TTE 16.50:1
TTF 19.50:1