Road Racing: Nasa Vs Scca

[terefic181]

Slow old poop,

The problem back when, was there was just not enough interest in the DSM's road racing, to make any difference, and I was no help because, I haven't made it to that level as yet. I am hopefull that this coming year will be the one. I have a several guys interested in running these cars, we just picked up a second car this past week and we're starting on it, and we're presently looking for a 3rd.

I see a swell forming here on the site and I hope it continues.

Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

Slow old poop,The problem back when, was there was just not enough interest in the DSM's road racing, to make any difference, and I was no help because, I haven't made it to that level as yet. I am hopefull that this coming year will be the one. I have a several guys interested in running these cars, we just picked up a second car this past week and we're starting on it, and we're presently looking for a 3rd. I see a swell forming here on the site and I hope it continues. Tom

I've been there. When I started running a 3000GT VR4 in HPDEs six years ago, I was one of only a handful of cars around the country. I didn't see another VR4 for a couple of years until I finally convinced some people that a VR4 is a fantastic track car (once you upgrade the brakes) and cars started coming out one or two at a time. We got a real support group going, and modded VR4s now terrorize the tracks, easily whipping up on the bad boys in Z06es, M3s and 911s.

I hope the exact same thing happens with DSMs. Our DSMs are much better than VR4s as track cars (from a cost/performance viewpoint), they are easy to upgrade a mod at a time, and -- as Greg Collier has proven -- they have the capability to run with the big boys.

All we gotta do is get a few of the drag racers to come out, and we'll hook them! Next, we get support groups at tracks, help each other out in the paddock and on this list, and we'll dominate whatever classes they put us in.
Rich

 

[terefic181]

...I hope the exact same thing happens with DSMs.... as Greg Collier has proven -- they have the capability to run with the big boys...

Rich

Yes, I have to agree with you, and I think a big reason for the increase, in interest, in Road Racing on this site, is directly related to Greg's abilities and performance over the past couple of years.

A huge applause for Greg.



Tom

 

[Slow old poop]

Yes, I have to agree with you, and I think a big reason for the increase, in interest, in Road Racing on this site, is directly related to Greg's abilities and performance over the past couple of years. Tom

Absolutely! Go Greg!
However, it is a GIGANTIC step from our HPDEs to what Greg's doing. It took him a zilion years and great bagsfull of money to get there.

What I and others are trying to do here is develop an upward path from HPDEs to NASA TTs to a lower race class in SCCA or NASA, and then to Greg's unlimited NASA class. That way, newbies can start with a bone stock car and progress on a planned basis up through the ranks, make no mistakes buying equipment, and end up at the top in a few years with the same car they started with.

With guys like Greg pointing out the pitfalls along the way and recommending equipment, our path upward will be smoother and easier than his was.

(Greg: tell THAT to your potential sponsors...you will be recommending equipment buys for dozens [I hope] of new DSM road racers...maybe that will get you a SlowBoy 2.4 motor. Sheeesh, if I was an equipment maker and knew a driver was a hero to hundreds of DSMers, I'd give him the best stuff I had. )

As an example, I took Greg's advice about the Moroso oil pan and ARP studs (see the "building a race engine" thread). I already talked to the engine builder, and he says he can modify the pan to work. That means Greg just sold about $500 worth of parts for vendors who aren't even his sponsors.

Rich

 

[manwithaGSX]

Well I hope they do make a sub list for road racing. I was planning on joining up with the SCCA but maybe I'll look into the NASA a little first. I've never competed like you guys have, but I would sure love to. I attended an SCCA Solo event this past October for the first time and loved it even though I did horrible. They had my GSX in the SM class because of my MBC but my street tires had me sliding all over the place. A point system would probably work better for me in my situation.

 

[Ludachris]

This is what our regional director said:
http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=26

If there was some consensus among the DSM crowd, we could probably get a spec class created just for DSMs... I'm not sure I see that happening though unfortunately.

 

[drivemusicnow]

This is what our regional director said:
http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=26

If there was some consensus among the DSM crowd, we could probably get a spec class created just for DSMs... I'm not sure I see that happening though unfortunately.

Do you think if we did enough research we could create a wrx/evo/dsm/3000gt/audi quattros/R32 spec class? I truly believe that if they are willing to work with us, and all they really want is interested people, we could get dozens of these cars willing to race in each category, and have different "modification levels" for each car to thus equalize them out. OBviously an evo with the same mods as aDSM isn't quite equal, so we could make the rules to take this into account. It would be a lot of work, however I'm sure we could do it, and I'd be willing to put in as much time as needed to make this work. I'm sure we could get the wrx/evo guys out. not so sure about the audis or r32s.

what do you guys think?

 

[Slow old poop]

This is what our regional director said:
http://www.nasarockymountain.com/nasa_forums/showthread.php?t=26
If there was some consensus among the DSM crowd, we could probably get a spec class created just for DSMs... I'm not sure I see that happening though unfortunately.

It probably would not be a bad idea to build our cars similarly, for several reasons:

1. Greg Collier and a handful of others have actual road race experience with specific equipment, and we would be foolish to ignore their advice as to what to buy and how to use it. Therefore, if we (for example) all installed Moroso oil pans, Fluidyne radiators, aluminum timing belt covers and so on, we would be doing the right thing for our cars. Also, I (and most others) don't have the buckets of money it takes to experiment with equipment and mods. Racing is hard enough without having to break cars and equipment trying to find what works. Better we should follow the leaders who have already done all that.

2. Perhaps we could arrange some group buys for various types of equipment. If we all decided to buy Moroso oil pans, for example, we should be able to wangle a group buy.

3. If our road race cars are built with the same basic mods, then we would eventually become a substantial group of similar cars and could lobby groups like NASA and SCCA for rules and classes that fit us better.

Rich

 

[Slow old poop]

Do you think if we did enough research we could create a wrx/evo/dsm/3000gt/audi quattros/R32 spec class? I truly believe that if they are willing to work with us, and all they really want is interested people, we could get dozens of these cars willing to race in each category, and have different "modification levels" for each car to thus equalize them out. OBviously an evo with the same mods as aDSM isn't quite equal, so we could make the rules to take this into account. It would be a lot of work, however I'm sure we could do it, and I'd be willing to put in as much time as needed to make this work. I'm sure we could get the wrx/evo guys out. not so sure about the audis or r32s. what do you guys think?

I dunno what an R32 is, but I run against all those other cars in HPDEs, and I wouldn't mind being in the same race class with them. Well, maybe 3000GTs belong one class up, because those muthas, when modded properly up to 500+ hp, are bloody dang fast. Maybe we should keep the class to four cylinders.

Just a thought. I am open to any class UNDER super unlimited.

RYich

 

[Greg Collier]

Check out my new thread: Creating a DSM Road Racing Series....

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207583

 

[drivemusicnow]

I dunno what an R32 is, but I run against all those other cars in HPDEs, and I wouldn't mind being in the same race class with them. Well, maybe 3000GTs belong one class up, because those muthas, when modded properly up to 500+ hp, are bloody dang fast. Maybe we should keep the class to four cylinders.

Just a thought. I am open to any class UNDER super unlimited.

RYich

R32 is a turbo AWD VW Golf.

Here is my "idea" a stock dsm would not even be close to a stock evo in terms of track times. So we equalize it. Whats allowed in the "spec C" class for dsms is different than what is allowed for evos. or 3kgts.

If we can get a baseline (go to Gregs thread and read what i wrote about classes) to go off of, I think we could create a decently level playing field for all of these cars in those different classes. For instance in the spec A class, Maybe DSMs are allowed to have less weight, or more power, or better suspension. Maybe Evos are not allowed to turn up boost in the first class, and have to use stock downpipes. I'm not really sure. But either way if we could include them in this category and give them a place to race as well, I think the interest in the racing series as a whole would quadruple.

 

[mavisky]

R32 is a turbo AWD VW Golf.

Here is my "idea" a stock dsm would not even be close to a stock evo in terms of track times. So we equalize it. Whats allowed in the "spec C" class for dsms is different than what is allowed for evos. or 3kgts.

If we can get a baseline (go to Gregs thread and read what i wrote about classes) to go off of, I think we could create a decently level playing field for all of these cars in those different classes. For instance in the spec A class, Maybe DSMs are allowed to have less weight, or more power, or better suspension. Maybe Evos are not allowed to turn up boost in the first class, and have to use stock downpipes. I'm not really sure. But either way if we could include them in this category and give them a place to race as well, I think the interest in the racing series as a whole would quadruple.

Your idea sounds exactly like NASA's TT rules setup. Check it out here if you're not familiar with it.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

 

[underradar92]

I think a road race specific forum would be cool. It seems that interest is on the upswing. In regards to a "spec-dsm" class, it would be kind of tough to sell, maybe, since a lot of cars would have to be de-modified. NASA's point system is interesting though. Thanks for the link, Mav.

 

[Slow old poop]

In regards to a "spec-dsm" class, it would be kind of tough to sell, maybe, since a lot of cars would have to be de-modified. NASA's point system is interesting though. Thanks for the link, Mav.

That may or not apply to me, since my 20G turbo moves me up a class, but I would gladly (well, maybe not "gladly") make the sacrifice if that's what it takes to get a DSM race class, or just a class where we would be competitive.

Except for 10 sec drag racers, I don't think there are that many cars yet which are over-modified for road racing. In fact, I don't think there are that many DSMs that road race, something that a thoughtful upgrade path from HPDEs might solve. In fact, once the word gets around that DSMs are a suitable race class with an affordable and sensible upgrade path, we might attract non-DSMers who are looking for something more reasonable than running 3000GTs, Z06es, M3s and 911s. It costs a bundle to make those cars race-worthy and competitive in their classes. For example, One of my ROWG buddies just spent $44,000 at Linglefelter to get his 2001 Z06 upgraded. Geez, for $44,000, we could run a whole team of modded DSMs in Super Unlimited class.

Rich

 

[terefic181]

I just received the return E-mail from Ryan Flaherty-(NASA National Chairman), and some of it is news to me also. It looks as if NASA does not allow internal mods to the engine in the PS-0 class. That, of course means if you have any internal mods, it's off to SU , the way it's set up at the moment. I will post today's E-mail, along with my previous communications, on both this thread and Greg's thread, because I think it will probably apply to both.


Tom

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tom,

The thread was so long I could not get through it but the gist is that people don't really know what to do. Let me help to articulate the best process

a) Run HPDE as much as possible
b) Keep the car as stock as possible and drive until an instructor tells you that you are very competent.
c) Run a few Time Trial events (after being approved to run in that group) and get a taste of competition
***Option (If you want to see how good you are, ask one of the top drivers or instructors to lay down some fast laps in your car to compare where you driving level is)
d) If you want to go wheel to wheel racing, you need to take one of the approved competition schools and have a race prepped car.
- This car does not need to be modified except for safety items. In fact, I would suggest NOT to prep it to the max performance level before gaining some actual racing experience
e) By this point, you know the group, class speeds, general driver capabilities, and have figured out your fixed cost to participate in a weekend.
f) Then decide how serious you want to get and modify the car accordingly.

To answer your question with regard to class. NASA Pro Sedan is an accommodation for SCCA IT prepped cars. We added the PS"0" class for cars that are not classified in IT and some turbo cars as well. Thus, a stock prepared turbo car like a Eclipse or Evo would be PS0 so long as they do not exceed IT prep levels which is simply suspension, intake and header. All internal engine parts must be OEM and the car needs to run stock boost levels. Anything beyond that is Super Unlimited.

As for the other ideas about mapping some race classes to align with our Time Trial rules, I must admit I like the idea. I don't think it would be a 2006 rule but it is certainly something we will put on the radar screen and give us something to think about. Thanks for the input.

PS. Some good links below
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/index.html
http://www.nasa-tt.com/
http://www.nasaproracing.com/resources.html

Regards,

Ryan Flaherty
National Chairman
http://www.nasaproracing.com


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----Original Message-----
From: tdixon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:30 AM
To: Evyan Ruiz
Subject: Re: Class structure


Evyan,

Please forward this URL to Ryan as well, so he has a better idea of what has transpired on the thread, since my initially contacting him.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207001&page=1&pp=25.

I hope everything went well at Thunderhill.

Thanx,

Tom
#107905
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: Evyan Ruiz
To: tdixon
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:44 AM
Subject: RE: Class structure


Hi Tom,

Ryan is away at the 25 hour Enduro at Thunderhill until Monday. I will send him your email then.

Best regards,

Evyan M. Ruiz
NASA SoCal Registrar
s s s s s s s s
Phone s 310-772-8202
Fax s 310-943-1766
www.nasaproracing.com
-----Original Message-----
From: tdixon [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Class structure


Ryan,

How are you doing?

I am on DSM (Diamond Star Motors) board and the question has come up as to the NASA class for these cars, across the country. They are '90-99 turbo'd Eclipses, Talons, and Lasers. I know we discussed this in '04 and you told me, at that time, that mine would be in PS-0. Is that still the case for these cars that match up with the SCCA - ITE rules, or have their been any changes?

If you could write me back with this information I'll post it to the DSM site.

Thank's Ryan,

Tom Dixon
#107905

 

[drivemusicnow]

Your idea sounds exactly like NASA's TT rules setup. Check it out here if you're not familiar with it.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

Yeah, I had been thinking about the viability of a point system for wheel to wheel racing.

Looks like Ryan Flaherty was intrigued by the idea as well.

I really think it would be a HUGE pita to setup, however once it is completed, it would open up the wheel to wheel racing world to a much larger number of people. I do think that the NASA TT rules seem pretty fair as of now. Possibly have a number of "experts" for each specific vehicle add in some details that may be overlooked right now, and you'd be set though.

 

[captkirk9195]

In the Washington DC Region, DSM's are in ITE. Actually, we aren't going to win the class if the class leader is there, but 2nd and 3rd are possible most days (Placed 3rd in the last race of the year).

ITE is kinda a catchall class in our region. Basically It's anything that doesn't have a class of its own, yet isn't fast enough to be in GT1.

BTW, if anyone wants to see the antics of my Road Racing over the last year, I have most of it up on my site http://www.nealracing.com

HTH

 

[Greg Collier]

In the Washington DC Region, DSM's are in ITE. Actually, we aren't going to win the class if the class leader is there, but 2nd and 3rd are possible most days (Placed 3rd in the last race of the year).

ITE is kinda a catchall class in our region. Basically It's anything that doesn't have a class of its own, yet isn't fast enough to be in GT1.

BTW, if anyone wants to see the antics of my Road Racing over the last year, I have most of it up on my site http://www.nealracing.com

HTH

Ok... so you've been a member here since May of 2003, and you only have 8 posts, AND you're a road racer? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!!! Your site is excellent and your modifications are perfect... I also liked your spin-out video!!

You sound like the perfect candidate for the new NASA DSM series....

It's so cool to see people like you out there doing what you're doing

Greg

Stroker vs. 275/40-17's?

 

[suicidal2af]

R32 is a turbo AWD VW Golf.

Try again. R32 is an AWD GTI with a 3.2L NA VR6.

 

[captkirk9195]

Ok... so you've been a member here since May of 2003, and you only have 8 posts, AND you're a road racer? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN!!!!! Your site is excellent and your modifications are perfect... I also liked your spin-out video!!

You sound like the perfect candidate for the new NASA DSM series....

It's so cool to see people like you out there doing what you're doing

Greg

Stroker vs. 275/40-17's?

Yeah, I haven't been on here much since I was grabbing information for when I converted the car from FWD to AWD back in Sept 2003. There honestly wasn't much Road Racing conversation on here at the time.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Try again. R32 is an AWD GTI with a 3.2L NA VR6.

Aye yes... But the GTI IS a Golf. I figured they would have used the audi turbo 3.2, but nope I was wrong, its NA. No wonder it's slow

NEAL!!! That's awesome, I like the site!

 

[mavisky]

Yeah, I haven't been on here much since I was grabbing information for when I converted the car from FWD to AWD back in Sept 2003. There honestly wasn't much Road Racing conversation on here at the time.

Well there is now, and we'd love to have you active on here to help those who are just getting started.

 

[suicidal2af]

Aye yes... But the GTI IS a Golf. I figured they would have used the audi turbo 3.2, but nope I was wrong, its NA. No wonder it's slow

NEAL!!! That's awesome, I like the site!

Yeah, if you really wanna be technical, a GTI is a golf...but an evo is also a lancer, and an sti is also an impreza