[RESOLVED] Is My Timing Off?

[snowborder714]

Update. The one time we were going at the tensioner pulley with the 90* pliers, the pin loosened up a bit. I did not tug hard enough to pull it out - I'm not even sure if it would've come out. But, I did tug on it hard enough to pull it out of the one hole. So we unbolted the tensioner and tried to compress it to put the allen wrench back through the 4th hole. In the process, we broke the allen wrench So, tomorrow I'm out to buy a new allen wrench and borrow my neighbor's bench vise and hopefully get the piece out and the new one in. Then it's back to trying to get it tensioned.

 

[Freerevving]

you can use a pair of cheapo 90* snap-ring pliers for the tensioner pulley... works perfectly

 

[snowborder714]

I got the timing belt back on finally. When we pulled the pin out, we were able to slip it in and out easily. We tightened down the tensioner pulley (we were still able to slide the pin in and out freely) and then cranked the motor over 6 times. All the timing marks still lined up (we still can't get the 4 cam gear marks to line up though). It sat for 15 minutes and then I checked the gap of the tensioner arm. I can't fit a 5/32 drill bit in there. I can fit a 7/64 drill bit. This is the 2nd time this has happened (we did this earlier, found the gap was too small, and decided to redo it). The first time we did this we pried up on the tensioner arm to hopefully open up the gap and we also cranked the motor over another 6 times. What needs to be done to fix this?

 

[steve]

If you can, apply a little less pressure with the tensioner pulley and then turn it over until the marks line up and wait 15 mins to check it again. Repeat until your happy with the clearance.

I don't pull the pin until after it's sat and the pin still moves freely.

 

[Freerevving]

I've never read in any manual about fitting a drill bit in anything, so I'm not sure what you're referring to...

as far as the belt... it will stretch in time. I've noticed that the outer lines come a lot closer to lining up than when I first set the timing... They become only slightly higher

The purpose for the automatic tensioner is to pick up slack when the belt stretches. The automatic tensioner might not be exactly the same as the one used with the information you have. If you are certain that the gap is too small because of something having too much slack, then I would assume that it's because the main tensioner is not putting enough tension on the belt... grab some snap ring pliers and torque that sucker

One way I test tension on a timing belt is to twist the belt in the very center of its longest length... Using moderate/light pressure, if you can twist it 90* then it is too loose. If it only twist 45* you're good... If it the belt whines when the engine is running, then it's way too tight.

but as long as the auto tensioner can can make up for slack in the future, you're golden.

edit... damn steve beat me

 

[steve]

I've never read in any manual about fitting a drill bit in anything, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Read step 35 of the VFAQ. Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

I should also point out that all of these measurements expect that you don't have a big dimple worn into the bottom of the tensioner arm. If you do it needs to be welded up and ground flat or replaced.

 

[Freerevving]

Read step 35 of the VFAQ. Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED)

cool and that's straight from Mitsubishi

That's good to know

oh I get it... possibly too much tension
sorry I'll stay out of it

 

[steve]

It started out as the pages from the factory manual and has been annotated over time.

Thanks for pointing out what I didn't see, that 7/64 is smaller than 5/32. Originally I read them both as 32nds.

 

[Freerevving]

To get a little off subject, I wish these guys : Bentley Publishers - Automotive Books and Repair Manuals would make a book for Mitsubishi

They use only factory manuals and service bulletins to make their books... they usually cost $60 a copy, but well worth it...

 

[snowborder714]

After talking with Jim (Auto RS T) and mavisky, my brother and I decided we're going to run it how it is. Jim said he hasn't used the drill bit method in a long time and just goes by tension, how the belt looks/feels, and if the marks line up. mavisky had said that he wouldn't be too worried and that as long as the marks line up and the belt looks/feels ok, we should be good.

The belt doesn't have more than 1/2" of depression between the cam gears and we can only rotate it about 45* in any place. If anything, I'd be worried it's too tight. But Jim said if we start it and it sounds like a supercharger whining, then we'll know.

If anyone has any comments on that, please let me know.

 

[Freerevving]

that's exactly how I do it

just remember to have the auto tensioner is position where it has plenty of room to grow... the belt will stretch over time and it's better to have it a little too tight than a little too loose

 

[snowborder714]

We got everything installed and got the car started tonight. It fired right up (with a good bit of belt squeal). So, we shut it down, tightened up the belts, and started it back up again. Still a bit of belt squeal, but I'll tighten them tomorrow.

It doesn't look like the timing was off in the first place. I still have the cam gear marks the way they were. But, all the timing marks line up, there's 39 teeth on the belt from exhaust cam mark to above intake cam mark, and it's running.

All I can say from this experience is that my brother and I (and I assume a good bit of you) learned a lot from this. It was excellent info that everyone posted and now I feel a lot more comfortable with timing belt jobs

And the hunt for the solution continues...
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/301956-cant-set-base-timing-using-cas.html#post151558368

 

[Freerevving]

for me, belt squeal usually comes from the alternator because it need to be extra tight

and you're talking about "squealing" and not "whining" right? remember whining means the timing belt is too tight

 

[snowborder714]

Yes, I believe it was a squeal. It went away after I tightened the alternator belt some more (last night...I haven't touched it yet today). Since you said the alternator belt needs to be extra tight, it may need a bit more.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

Glad you got everything resolved, is it running yet? I figured I'd post back because I just timed a motor the way I've always timed it. It's not EXACTLY a straight edge, but very close. Still, 39 teeth and proper tension is key I've noticed that when you tension the pulley, hold the tensioner manually (don't tighten the bolt) for about 10 seconds. This will give the autotensioner a chance to self adjust, thus giving you a more accurate tension pointer. Doing this almost always ensures that the grenade pin is loose after 6 rotations and 15 minutes.

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[turbosax2]

Yup, we finally got her running after we figured out the harmonic dampener went bad. Until we compared his dampener with mine we couldn't even see there was damage to it. We swapped in mine and problem fixed!

 

[steve]

I figured I'd post back because I just timed a motor the way I've always timed it. It's not EXACTLY a straight edge, but very close. Still, 39 teeth and proper tension is key I've noticed that when you tension the pulley, hold the tensioner manually (don't tighten the bolt) for about 10 seconds. This will give the autotensioner a chance to self adjust, thus giving you a more accurate tension pointer. Doing this almost always ensures that the grenade pin is loose after 6 rotations and 15 minutes.

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Note how using the marks causes your "straight edge" to NOT run through the centers of both cam bolts. The important reference points to use are the two centers and the two inner timing marks. The outer marks will not line up with the rest when the use the correct points.

 

[Bud92gsx]

So I just happend to notice that on my Talon, the timing marks are off. The intake gear is where it should be but the exhaust looks to be advanced or retarded. The CAS is also retarded or advanced(down) Is this a major issue? Could this be another reason I can't get the talon running? Brian knows what I'm talking about..

 

[snowborder714]

The CAS shouldn't affect it too much. My car would run (not great, but it'd still run) with the CAS in pretty much any position, even 180* out. But I would verify that is isn't 180* out and then just put it in the middle.

Can you get any pictures of your timing marks? Maybe even the crank and oil pump sprocket marks if you're not sure about them?

Care to refresh me of the problems with the Talon (other than it not starting)?

 

[Bud92gsx]

Yes I will get pics and post them, give me a couple of hours, I have to run and exchange the starter in a bit.. Talons problems...Starter plate all bent to hell, tried 2 diff starters, now for another. Have not put in new starter plate, figured I might get away with the one that installed now. Last night took a gander at the cam gears and noticed they are not alligned, don't know how i've missed that since i've had the car for close to a month now...That's really about it either the starter or the plate, hoping to get away with just the starter. So I will get pics posted by 5 oclock..

 

[snowborder714]

Also try and get pictures of the starter plate around the hole where the starter goes in, if you can.

 

[Bud92gsx]

So I went over to advance...Long story short I may still have the wrong starter.. As for pics, my camera died after I got only one shot...Waiting for other batteries to charge, the other one's I had were brand new and didn't turn my camera on. So I guess I'll have pics to you by 8 central time...

 

[Bud92gsx]

Timing marks...

 

[dsmmatt28]

You have to make sure your motor is at TDC. If your timing was that off you would have benta all of your valves . Check make sure you motor is a TDC then check the marks. If you dont know what TDC then do a search.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Line up the crank marks when the dowel pins on the cams are pointing up. Then take more pictures.