[RESOLVED] Is My Timing Off?

[snowborder714]

I was trying to set my timing tonight after haven taken out my 1g CAS to replace the o-ring. When trying to find the timing mark on the crank pulley, it would not even get in the range to be on the timing marks. When the timing is retarded the whole way, the white mark is below the 10* mark (around say +15*). It can't be retarded enough to get into the range. All of this was done with timing grounded via DSMlink.

So I thought maybe installing the CAS out 180* might cause this. So I verified that it was installed correctly according to RRE's 1g CAS in a 2g page. Still the same problem.

Then I started rotating the crank by hand (clockwise) until the timing marks on the cam gears were lined up, with the dowel pins at 12 o'clock, and the motor at TDC. But all 4 marks don't line up. When I have a ruler across them, I have the outer marks in line, but the two center ones are about 3mm below the ruler line.

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Then I remembered blcknsp0oln's thread on setting the timing (http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...l-installing-timing-timing-belt-6bolt-2g.html). It says in there about checking by counting timing belt teeth:

You will know you have everything timed correctly when you count 39 teeth on the belt starting from the top of the left exhaust cam mark to the middle of the right intake cam mark.

I did this and I get 39 teeth.

I also checked the harmonic balancer for any separation, but there isn't any.

Is my timing off?

 

[Freerevving]

the inter-cam timing is right... those lines are matched up in the picture...

if your crank isn't lining up it's because the crank is off by one or two teeth... don't pay too much attention to the oil pump groove. As long as the weight is centered at the bottom when you line it up with the crank... if you have no balance shafts you can ignore the oil pump groove

 

[snowborder714]

the inter-cam timing is right... those lines are matched up in the picture...

if your crank isn't lining up it's because the crank is off by one or two teeth... don't pay too much attention to the oil pump groove. As long as the weight is centered at the bottom when you line it up with the crank... if you have no balance shafts you can ignore the oil pump groove

But there is more than just the inner two timing notches to look at. I'm concerned that all 4 of mine don't line up.

I didn't check the oil pump or crank to make sure they lined up. I saw that the cam gears were out and stopped there.

 

[1992awdlaser]

You have to make sure the marks are lined up with the top of the head where the valve cover bolts to also. The inner marks can line up with eachother even though they are not even with the head. With all four of mine lined up I would have a straight edge at the bottom of the outer marks and it would cross through the middle of the inner marks.

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[snowborder714]

^^ That's exactly the problem. If we put the straight edge at the bottom of the outer marks we can't see the inner marks because the straight edge is covering them up.

Here's some more pictures. Sorry, it's really hard to get good pictures of this.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3291/2664123828_65a8a69603_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2367/2663291779_dc6f42fb79_b.jpg

 

[snowborder714]

I just got the timing belt and tensioner removed. I was looking at the tensioner and comparing it to a 1g (using blcknsp0oln's timing belt tech article) and a 2g (using my brother's old and new tensioners) and mine looks completely different than both. It looks closer to a 2g than a 1g though. I was wondering which tensioner I have, can I use a 2g, should I reuse the one that came off the car? Obviously, I would really like to get a new one (well, all new timing belt stuff), but I'm really low on cash considering I'm moving into an apartment in a week.

In order, from left to right, in the first picture:

Tensioner that came off my car
Brother's old tensioner
Brother's new OEM tensioner

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[Freerevving]

I've timed these things many times and your intercam timing is dead on... not sure why the line on the left isn't lining up maybe there's a difference between intake and exhaust gears... but where the paint is in the middle the lines line up perfectly... and line up with the head just below the gasket

If you put the paint on the gears, then you probably have the gears swapped... I can't really tell from the pitctures, but it looks like they line up on the ends... remember the head is on an angle

If your head is shaved you'll notice something like this... nothing wrong with it, just confusing.

 

[Auto RS T]

Looks like you have a 2G style mounting tensioner with a 1G style bleeding fixture. An early model before revision possibly? What would matter here is if there was a difference from the mounting points to the end of the tensioner tip.

If it crushes fine (remember do this very slowly) then I would reuse it if I was hurting for some cash. There should be quite a bit of resistance and you can compare that to the other tensioners you have.

Put it together and do a nice maintenance in a few months.

1G 6 bolt tensioner for comparison.

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[Grimis]

Did you have the cam gears off by chance? you might have put them on the wrong cam maybe? I had a few sets of MT camgears and they where diffrent (marks did't like up, had to swap them back to get them to line up) but your center is dead on.


as for your tensioner on the left is the early 95 modles,, Thats what mine use to look like. You can get it the same one from the dealer or a shop, but the newer ones (on the right) is what the 97+'s use.

94 01.1 - 94 10.3 MD308587
94 11.1 - 95 08.2 MD308587 (the one on the left) Mentors price $76.67
95 08.3 - 99 04.3 MD308086 (the one on the right) " " "" $65.86

 

[snowborder714]

Freerevving - I think the timing is off because all 4 marks don't line up. I've never read anything about just looking at the inner two marks. I didn't put the paint on the cam gears. I bought the car like this and I haven't touched the timing belt or anything associated with it since I bought it (which it was half-assed to begin with). I'm not sure if the head is shaved or not. All I know is it's a 1g 7 bolt. What do you mean the gears are swapped? Every '90-'99 DSM (except early '95 - my vin number) uses the same cam gear for both the intake and exhaust cams. And it looks like both of mine are the same.

Jim - The way it mounted was using the two diagonal holes. The bolt that is still in the right side is just in there - it doesn't go to anything on the front case. No idea why it was there. We'll compress mine and my bro's old one and see how they compare. I do plan on doing a full timing belt job over the winter once I get some money.

Chuck - I have never had the cam gears off. The only thing I have done to the internals/timing belt side is change the lifters to 3g's. Thank you for the clarification on the tensioners. My car is an early '95 so the previous owner probably reused the tensioner from the stock motor.

So, the big question is...can I use a 2g tensioner on my 1g 7 bolt? I don't see why not as the mounting points are the same and I had one on there before and it was working fine. I don't even see how I can use a 1g style (like below) because I would only be able to use 1 bolt hole I believe. I can't check it out tonight because it's raining, but I'm going to check it out tomorrow and I'll post some pictures. I just really need to know if I can use my bro's old one, otherwise I need to order a new one tomorrow.

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[Auto RS T]

That extra hole is for a timing cover bolt.

I would say you should use the 2g style tensioner. Looks like an updated version of the one you have to me.

 

[Freerevving]

Freerevving - I think the timing is off because all 4 marks don't line up. I've never read anything about just looking at the inner two marks. I didn't put the paint on the cam gears. I bought the car like this and I haven't touched the timing belt or anything associated with it since I bought it (which it was half-assed to begin with). I'm not sure if the head is shaved or not. All I know is it's a 1g 7 bolt. What do you mean the gears are swapped? Every '90-'99 DSM (except early '95 - my vin number) uses the same cam gear for both the intake and exhaust cams. And it looks like both of mine are the same.

Did you have the cam gears off by chance? you might have put them on the wrong cam maybe? I had a few sets of MT camgears and they where diffrent (marks did't like up, had to swap them back to get them to line up) but your center is dead on.

to be honest I'm wasn't sure that they're different... it was a suggestion... but apparently they might be^^

THE ONLY WAY you can get the notches to line up like that (assuming that the gears are right) is to get the timing dead on... you will NEVER have the notches lined up like that if your intercam timing is off.. by even one tooth

also, I'll go check some cams to see if the gears have different marks between exhaust and intake... I would think that they do, as they are not positioned the same when timed

Hope that helps

--Mac

oh p.s... The 7 bolt 1g looks shorter, less reach... but I'm sure you could use either one as it's not the main source of tension, it's only there for when the belt stretches... use whatever one you have available and don't waste your money

 

[snowborder714]

That extra hole is for a timing cover bolt.

I would say you should use the 2g style tensioner. Looks like an updated version of the one you have to me.

Ah, that makes sense! Not sure why we didn't think of that.

But now this brings up more questions (like, if I actually have a 1g block). I just don't understand why they would have a separate part number for a 1g 7 bolt tensioner and I have a 2g tensioner on there.

to be honest I'm wasn't sure that they're different... it was a suggestion... but apparently they might be^^

THE ONLY WAY you can get the notches to line up like that (assuming that the gears are right) is to get the timing dead on... you will NEVER have the notches lined up like that if your intercam timing is off.. by even one tooth

also, I'll go check some cams to see if the gears have different marks between exhaust and intake... I would think that they do, as they are not positioned the same when timed

Hope that helps

--Mac

oh p.s... I'm sure you'll find that the 7-bolt 1g part number is now superceded by the 2g part number for the tensioner... translation: either one will work, one is not weaker than the other... use whatever one you have available and don't waste your money

Well, I guess I'll see what happens when I go to retime it. I'll go from there and probably be back with questions and lots of pictures to make sure it's right.

However, there are part numbers and pictures from CAPS below to show that there's 4 different tensioners as well as 4 links from ExtremePSI for the different tensioners.

1991 GSX (1g 6 bolt)
MD164533

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1993 GSX (1g 7 bolt)
MD190988 which is now superseded by MD308586.

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1995 GST (my VIN number) - early 2g 7 bolt
MD308587

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1999 GSX (my bro's VIN number) - 2g 7 bolt
MD308086

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And the links to Extreme:
90-92 (1g 6 bolt) Tensioner

92-94 (1g 7 bolt) Tensioner

Early 95 (2g 7 bolt) Tensioner

95-99 (2g 7 bolt) Tensioner

 

[Grimis]

yeah, these diffrent year makes is a pain in the arse. Just to throw this out there, the 2g Tensioner arms (the bracket that it bolts to) is the same threw the years from 95-99 MD189172 (motor mount as well).

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Sorry MAN

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James

 

[snowborder714]

Thanks James. That's what Jim and I came to the conclusion on last night. Eric and I have already removed the belt so we'll retime it correctly. We just need to make sure I use the right tensioner.

James, you better have this PA meet at a time when I can get there!!!

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

Well you better get your shit fixed and i better prey to god my fwd stays together. lulz. Im honestly thinking august 9th is the day to have it. What do you think?

James

 

[Freerevving]

hold on let me go check the cams...

part numbers: as long as the tensioner is making tension you'll be fine

 

[Freerevving]

Cam gears are the same

okay intercam timing:

the left side is not going to line up perfectly...the exhaust cam is always cocked a little clockwise... top spokes on the cams look like this: / l

The instructional in that link is wrong the left mark will always be higher because of where the marks are.... you ARE NOT supposed to use all four lines... you are supposed to use TWO LINES and line it up with the top of the head without the gasket (just like 99% of all OHC engines out there)... and just how they tell you in both manuals

The only reason there are four lines, is so that they can use one machine to make both gears... the paint is on two of the marks because those are the only ones you need to look at


And you aren't a half a tooth off that's impossible, it's possible that all four lines will line up when thwe belt stretches out

 

[Auto RS T]

But now this brings up more questions (like, if I actually have a 1g block). I just don't understand why they would have a separate part number for a 1g 7 bolt tensioner and I have a 2g tensioner on there.


Does your block have the mounting holes for the 1G front motor mount? Would that be an easy way to tell?

On a 2g 7 bolt block the bolt holes aren't there, its just blank.

 

[snowborder714]

Well you better get your shit fixed and i better prey to god my fwd stays together. lulz. Im honestly thinking august 9th is the day to have it. What do you think?

James

I'm hoping to have it fixed by next weekend, since that's when I move. I voted for the 9th as I'll be home that weekend. Either then or sometime from the 22nd on.

Cam gears are the same

okay intercam timing:

the left side is not going to line up perfectly...the exhaust cam is always cocked a little clockwise... top spokes on the cams look like this: / l

The instructional in that link is wrong the left mark will always be higher because of where the marks are.... you ARE NOT supposed to use all four lines... you are supposed to use TWO LINES and line it up with the top of the head without the gasket (just like 99% of all OHC engines out there)... and just how they tell you in both manuals

The only reason there are four lines, is so that they can use one machine to make both gears... the paint is on two of the marks because those are the only ones you need to look at


And you aren't a half a tooth off that's impossible, it's possible that all four lines will line up when thwe belt stretches out

Well, I can't say I've ever read anyone saying to use just the inner cam timing, but you have a point that it does say it in the manuals. I'll remember this when I reinstall the belt!

Does your block have the mounting holes for the 1G front motor mount? Would that be an easy way to tell?

On a 2g 7 bolt block the bolt holes aren't there, its just blank.

I do have that weird arm thing that sticks out of the corner of the block for the 1g motor mount. It had 2 studs in it, but they are now removed. I'm almost positive that it's a 1g block, but I've learned to contemplate myself more and more as I work on the car. The previous owner did some pretty crazy stuff and I'm not sure if he was trying to sell me something that wasn't as he described it, knowing very well what he was doing, or if he was just that bad of a mechanic.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

If he were to rotate the intake cam a half a tooth, all those lines would line up guaranteed.

James

 

[Auto RS T]

If he were to rotate the intake cam a half a tooth, all those lines would line up guaranteed.

James

That would actually cause the exhaust cam mark to go down and the intake to come up, seperating the two furthur. The above pictured point is the only point in the rotation where the middle marks align. Any other movement throws the marks off more.

If I were Snowborder I would play with setting the belt up correctly, then seeing if I could duplicate the misaligned marks again, just to confirm the earlier diagnosis. Of course, there is nothing wrong with putting it back on the right way and being done with it.

 

[Freerevving]

man I have timed the 4G63 well over 20 times... and everytime the lines matched up exactly how he has it, and the spokes on the gears look exactly how he has it. Never payed attention to the outside lines.

The pictoral has the line higher in the picture too.

Did anybody notice the part where he says to count teeth on the belt? 39 teeth from the top of the left line on the exhaust cam to the middle of the line on the intake cam

I'd put money that the OP has 39 belt teeth between

just ask anyone who'd timed these things a thousand times you can tell by the angle of the spokes when it's timed right... not to mention you have to be able to fit a thick feeler gauge in the slot where the painted timing marks are AND THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THAT... if you can fit the thick feeler gauge in the slot, the intercam timing is dead on

 

[92awddsm]

man I have timed the 4G63 well over 20 times... and everytime the lines matched up exactly how he has it, and the spokes on the gears look exactly how he has it. Never payed attention to the outside lines.

The pictoral has the line higher in the picture too.

Did anybody notice the part where he says to count teeth on the belt? 39 teeth from the top of the left line on the exhaust cam to the middle of the line on the intake cam

I'd put money that the OP has 39 belt teeth between

just ask anyone who'd timed these things a thousand times you can tell by the angle of the spokes when it's timed right... not to mention you have to be able to fit a thick feeler gauge in the slot where the painted timing marks are AND THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO DO THAT... if you can fit the thick feeler gauge in the slot, the intercam timing is dead on

If Ive timed one, Ive timed 100. If you rotate the intake cam clockwise 1/2 tooth and the exhaust cam counterclockwise 1/2 tooth, the marks will line up perfectly. Or, you can just move 1 cam 1 tooth. The problem here is 1 cam is a tooth off but I cant tell which without seeing the crank mark first. When setting cam timing, all 4 marks line up with the top surface of the head(vc mounting surface) in a straight line. Why do you continue to be persistent in posting misinformation?

OP, what you have is a 1g 7 bolt tensioner. Dont worry about the caps pic, it is a misprint. The difference in the 1g and 2g 7 bolt tensioner is shape and length but IIRC, the 2g works on the 1g but not the other way around. They may but I have never really checked myself.