[RESOLVED] Is My Timing Off?

[snowborder714]

Thanks for the input Keith!

I just got off the phone with ExtremePSI, JNZ, and Magnus and they all said that the 2g tensioner probably wouldn't work. The guy at Extreme was kind of iffy (he had no idea, but just said to be safe, get the correct one) and the guy at JNZ said that if the part numbers are different, then it won't work for sure. The guy at Magnus just said he talked to a tech and was told that it wouldn't work.

 

[Freerevving]

Why do you continue to be persistent in posting misinformation?
.

His lines are lined up with the head right now, look at the gasket behind it

one more tooth and they'll be angled like this slightly / \ above the head

are you saying that they need to be angled like this / \ in the middle and above the gasket?

furthermore, the ruler he is holding will end up below the marks, not lining up anyway...

 

[snowborder714]

I put the 2g tensioner on and the pin doesn't line up with the end of the tensioner arm. So, I will reuse my tensioner that came off the car.

 

[Freerevving]

Why do you continue to be persistent in posting misinformation?

go ahead, don't listen to my "misinformation"

the only way to get them to line up better than what you have it is more tension on the belt...

turning each cam in opposite directions 1/2 tooth is the same as moving one cam 1 tooth

if your first picture is accurate, and you go one tooth (1/2 tooth each side) this is what you get:

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btw that picture ^ is one tooth off, the lines are above the top of the head


I give up... if you've timed as many cars as I have, it becomes easy to adjust one tooth in any direction... I can't tell you how many times I've fiddled with this on the 4g63, and cross-referenced this.

If you don't believe me, just spend some time on it.... I checked my cam gears and mine are pretty level in comparison to yours (still the outers are a tiny bit higher)
Your problem is that your timing belt is not tight enough

More tension will stretch the belt <-- --> making it line up better

 

[1992awdlaser]

92awddsm is right. Have you looked at the picture I added? ALL of the marks line up. And the inner marks are not tilted like in the picture you provided. The cams can be turned some and the inner marks will still line up perfectly.

 

[Freerevving]

92awddsm is right. Have you looked at the picture I added? ALL of the marks line up. And the inner marks are not tilted like in the picture you provided. The cams can be turned some and the inner marks will still line up perfectly.

Yeah your picture has no belt on it... as soon as you put the belt on they will be pulled closer together (downward).... you can't move the teeth on the belt

and as soon as you put more tension on the belt, they will be pulled a little further apart

I'm betting his belt wasn't very tight in the first picture

 

[1992awdlaser]

Yeah your picture has no belt on it... as soon as you put the belt on they will be pulled closer together (downward).... you can't move the teeth on the belt

and as soon as you put more tension on the belt, they will be pulled a little further apart

I'm betting his belt wasn't very tight in the first picture

I know what you are saying about the belt and tension. I am just saying all four marks can and should line up.

 

[Freerevving]

I know what you are saying about the belt and tension. I am just saying all four marks can and should line up.

Cool...

but they won't line up perfectly... just try putting a belt on, make sure it's tight... If you have it lined up with the head on the table and a belt, I gaurantee the belt will feel real loose on top

just like the pictoral said... the bottom of the outside lines will line up with the top of the inside lines...

This whole time I've been trying to point out that the timing is correct, and I now realize why the outside lines were so high (well the only reasonable explanation) belt tension

I just dislike being accused of giving misinformation... When I don't know, I will say so, or be quiet. I'm not one of those people who pretend to know what they're talking about... not that I haven't been wrong before

 

[92awddsm]

I give up... if you've timed as many cars as I have, it becomes easy to adjust one tooth in any direction... I can't tell you how many times I've fiddled with this on the 4g63, and cross-referenced this.

Can I ask how old you are and how long you have been working on dsm's? No trying to get off topic, just curious.

And yes, I can adjust one tooth either direction and even swap cams without ever removing the belt or even the lower cover. And, I can also get all 4 marks on the cam gears to line up even with the top head surface.

 

[92awddsm]

Cool...

but they won't line up perfectly... just try putting a belt on, make sure it's tight... If you have it lined up with the head on the table and a belt, I gaurantee the belt will feel real loose on top

just like the pictoral said... the bottom of the outside lines will line up with the top of the inside lines...

This whole time I've been trying to point out that the timing is correct, and I now realize why the outside lines were so high (well the only reasonable explanation) belt tension

I just dislike being accused of giving misinformation... When I don't know, I will say so, or be quiet. I'm not one of those people who pretend to know what they're talking about... not that I haven't been wrong before

If there is a lot of slop in the belt between the gears, yes, the marks will be skewed. If you are installing the belt, you shouldnt have marks like that while tensioning. If you do, you are half assing a job and just hoping for the best. Therefore, telling people that the marks never line up is just misinformation. When properly tensioned while installing the belt, you are either supposed to lock the cam gears into place or pull tension between them in order to be sure of proper belt alignment.

 

[snowborder714]

So since everyone is starting to think there wasn't enough tension on the belt (which was causing the inner two markings to droop down), what would I need to do to fix this? As of now, I will be reusing the tensioner. Is there a way a tensioner can partially fail and not put the full amount of tension on the belt that's needed? I compressed it using a bench vise today and got the 'pin' (an allen wrench) in, after a lot of fidgeting around with it. The holes just would not line up. But now it's pushing up on the allen wrench so I can tell it's got some tension.

I will be replacing the belt with one that came off of my brother's car. It is a ContiTech belt that we think has only a few thousand miles on. It looks brand new and the guy he bought the car from said he did a timing belt job right before he sold it. I'm also on a budget, otherwise I'd be getting a new one.

 

[blcknspo0ln]

I've got a belt that literally has 50 miles on it if you want. OEM, I just replaced it during my build this winter because I'm paranoid. PM if you want, just paypal me shipping. Matter of fact, I'll go look in the garage to make sure it's still there.

 

[Freerevving]

If there is a lot of slop in the belt between the gears, yes, the marks will be skewed. If you are installing the belt, you shouldnt have marks like that while tensioning. If you do, you are half assing a job and just hoping for the best. Therefore, telling people that the marks never line up is just misinformation. When properly tensioned while installing the belt, you are either supposed to lock the cam gears into place or pull tension between them in order to be sure of proper belt alignment.

Man I give up... Do you suggest he go one more tooth and make his marks like this / \ ?
like I had in the picture?

You're telling me I half-ass a job and it's obvious you have little experience doing this

The very fact that you want to know my age (which is thirty by the way) shows me that this is nothing more than a pissing contest to you

I don't care.. You're right, I'm wrong
Go one more tooth and your intake cam will be advanced

 

[Auto RS T]

So since everyone is starting to think there wasn't enough tension on the belt (which was causing the inner two markings to droop down), what would I need to do to fix this? As of now, I will be reusing the tensioner. Is there a way a tensioner can partially fail and not put the full amount of tension on the belt that's needed? I compressed it using a bench vise today and got the 'pin' (an allen wrench) in, after a lot of fidgeting around with it. The holes just would not line up. But now it's pushing up on the allen wrench so I can tell it's got some tension.

I will be replacing the belt with one that came off of my brother's car. It is a ContiTech belt that we think has only a few thousand miles on. It looks brand new and the guy he bought the car from said he did a timing belt job right before he sold it. I'm also on a budget, otherwise I'd be getting a new one.

The only thing you need to do to fix your problem is put the belt on with all four marks lined up and the correct tension on the belt. The key to the timing job is the eccentric pulley posistion with the correct tension. Pulling the pin on the grenade is easy.

When my timing belt tensioner went bad, it just made the motor have a horrible tick, it was much worse with rpm and once you hear the noise you will never forget it. Anyway the belt stayed on, I replaced the tensioner and everything was fine.

I think the blcknspoOln timing belt would sound better in the mod list than the ConiTech.

 

[1992awdlaser]

Man I give up... Do you suggest he go one more tooth and make his marks like this / \ ?
like I had in the picture?

You're telling me I half-ass a job and it's obvious you have little experience doing this

The very fact that you want to know my age (which is thirty by the way) shows me that this is nothing more than a pissing contest to you

I don't care.. You're right, I'm wrong
Go one more tooth and your intake cam will be advanced

He is suggesting to use a tool like this: ML6000, Tool, Cam Lock, Timing Gear Clamp

92awddsm knows what he is talking about, believe me. He is one of few people I would go directly to for an answer to a question if I had one.

 

[Freerevving]

well I appologize in advance

I've been wrong plenty of times in the past, maybe I am again...

But I know my car is timed right, I never looked at the side of the gears before but looking now I see they are lined up pretty good... there is probably a quarter tooth difference (higher on the sides)

there is only one way to get the two inner lines to line perfectly with each other, and with the top of the head ... that's all you need to know

Why doesn't Snowborder just count for 39 teeth?

Snowborder can you do that? end this please

 

[Auto RS T]

well I appologize in advance

I've been wrong plenty of times in the past, maybe I am again...

But I know my car is timed right, I never looked at the side of the gears before but looking now I see they are lined up pretty good... there is probably a quarter tooth difference (higher on the sides)

there is only one way to get the two inner lines to line perfectly with each other, and with the top of the head ... that's all you need to know

Why doesn't Snowborder just count for 39 teeth?

Snowborder can you do that? end this please

In post #1 Snowborder stated he counted 39 teeth.

The belt has been off since post #6 yesterday so we will never know besides the first tooth count.

The way to end this is helping Brian get the car back together correctly in time to go the the PA DSM meet. Like you said there is only one way to do it, so lets help get it done.

 

[snowborder714]

I think the blcknspoOln timing belt would sound better in the mod list than the ConiTech.

Well, I'll be going with the ContiTech belt. Unless I want Toan's which was smooshed by a short block

Thanks for the offer anyway

 

[blcknspo0ln]

yea sorry Brian, I suck block > timing belt



well, unless you want the gift of a grenading motor

 

[Freerevving]

In post #1 Snowborder stated he counted 39 teeth.

The belt has been off since post #6 yesterday so we will never know besides the first tooth count.

The way to end this is helping Brian get the car back together correctly in time to go the the PA DSM meet. Like you said there is only one way to do it, so lets help get it done.

Hey thanks... I thought I read this thing thoroughly, but I didn't
btw thanks for being so positive

He counted 39 teeth when I was saying he had the timing marks lined up right

Don't worry about it Brian, line up the timing like you had it (well, not sure about your second picture, but the first one is right) that's exactly how I had it the last time ... the other two timing marks will line up once the timing belt is tight... Until you have the belt tight, just worry about the two in the middle lining up with the top of the head

Sorry about any comments about the outer two lines....
I didn't realize mine were lined up, as I've only payed attention to the two inner marks when timing

And hey, ContiTech is a very good belt... I know a lot of people who prefer them for performance applications...

 

[desolateboosted]

I've done many timing belt jobs as well and Freerevving is absolutely correct. The marks won't line up close at all if your timing is off. In the pictures supplied, the timing is dead on. It's impossible to be half a tooth off and look correct. It just won't look right. I've timed some cars with shaved heads and decked surfaces with the timing appearing to be off just a tad in the crank sprocket but still be correct. When you're one tooth off it will look approximately 1cm away from the tick mark which is far.

 

[desolateboosted]

A final and for sure way to double check if you have the belt correctly timed is to quickly turn the engine over six times. You are not going to bend valves if it's off a very small amount. And if you are really off (in which case you don't need to touch a dsm) the engine will only crank far enough until your valves come in contact with your pistons which then it will feel like it's totally stuck. No amount of man power will be able to get past this point unless you are using a 5ft breaker bar stressing it. On the sixth turn everything should line up. If not then you will know easily what to adjust unless you are a total vegetable. Correctly timing a dsm t-belt is not very difficult.

 

[steve]

This has been great fun watching.

I'd like those that think it's possible to explain to me how you can be 1/2 tooth off on a geared device like our timing belt. That would require the belt tooth to sit on a sprocket tooth.

As I've pointed out before the two marks on the sprocket aren't exactly 180* apart. For most of the DOHC 4G63's the intake and exhaust sprockets are the same part number. Depending on which cam you mount them on decides which of the two marks is the timing mark.

The cam sprockets has 48 teeth, one tooth is 7.5* and when mounted on the exhaust cam the dowel pin is advanced 3* 5' (according to the FSM, I'm not sure why it's not 3.25*) and so the mark to be used on the exhaust is 90* - 3* 5' where the mark for the intake side is at 270* since the intake dowel is 0*.

When you line up the marks you are intended to use the centerline of the cams and the marks between the two cams. The outer marks won't exactly line up because they aren't 180* apart from the inners as just discussed. If your paying attention you would have noticed that the mating surface between the head and rocker cover is on the center of the cams. So the marks will line up with it when the crank is at TDC when the belt is correct.

The belt has to be tensioned to get any useful data.

 

[Freerevving]

This has been great fun watching.

I'd like those that think it's possible to explain to me how you can be 1/2 tooth off on a geared device like our timing belt. That would require the belt tooth to sit on a sprocket tooth.

As I've pointed out before the two marks on the sprocket aren't exactly 180* apart. For most of the DOHC 4G63's the intake and exhaust sprockets are the same part number. Depending on which cam you mount them on decides which of the two marks is the timing mark.

The cam sprockets has 48 teeth, one tooth is 7.5* and when mounted on the exhaust cam the dowel pin is advanced 3* 5' (according to the FSM, I'm not sure why it's not 3.75*) and so the mark to be used on the exhaust is 90* - 3* 5' where the mark for the intake side is at 270* since the intake dowel is 0*.

When you line up the marks you are intended to use the centerline of the cams and the marks between the two cams. The outer marks won't exactly line up because they aren't 180* apart from the inners as just discussed. If your paying attention you would have noticed that the mating surface between the head and rocker cover is on the center of the cams. So the marks will line up with it when the crank is at TDC when the belt is correct.

The belt has to be tensioned to get any useful data.

I've done many timing belt jobs as well and Freerevving is absolutely correct. The marks won't line up close at all if your timing is off. In the pictures supplied, the timing is dead on. It's impossible to be half a tooth off

Thank you... I'm very glad I didn't mis-inform anyone

 

[turbosax2]

We started the install. First, we just put the belt over the cam gears and tried to get everything lined up. The best we could get it was like how it started out, with the outer 2 marks slightly above the inner 2. Like you guys already said, we also noticed the marks weren't 180* apart. We decided to go ahead and finish installing the timing belt to see what would happen with the marks on the cam gears. While tensioning the tensioner pulley with our Jay Racing special tool, one of the prongs on the tool broke so Jay is sending out a new one. Maybe we did something wrong, but the pin in the tensioner never started to loosen and the 2 holes didn't get to 12 o'clock We made sure the 2 holes in the pulley were on the left side when we started. We also tried doing it with an allen wrench pried against a socket but we had no luck with that. Brian is out right now to pick up a set of 90* pliers.


steve, the technical points in your post flew right over my head.


If it ends up the timing is like it was before and it is right, then oh well, Brian and I learned how to do a timing belt job. Learning is fun