O ring block problem, need help

[JacksonAuto]

jackson machine i also heard from someone, that o-ringing the head if ever need be to separate the block and head again , basically the cylinder head would be junk afterwards because the surface was disturbed far enough that it cant be resurfaced or o-ringed again because too much material would have to be cut , rendering the cylinderhead useless. Or is machining a receiver for the block o-ring a whole different story?

Same story as the block. If you have grooves cut in the head and no longer want to use o-rings then fill the grooves with copper wire and mill it flat. But you are correct in that you cannot mill the grooves out. That would take too much material off of the deck.

 

[keltalon]

.005? Not enough protrusion to make a difference either way. Your block would stay sealed up without the O-rings. It's working for you because you have no need for o-rings. Good sealing surfaces and a good gasket will seal 40+ psi. Get up into that territory where o-rings are necessary and that piddly .005" wont do shit.

Man you are cursing becuase you don't want to hear the truth maybe you are feeling the effects of the economy and can't pay your bills. Frankly I don't give a rats rear end what you think I know what is working for me . I used to respect jackson and have even purchased from you guys but no more you are showing that you are just as ignorant as most who don't have a clue. I post results long and short. I can post pics of a head gasket that came off this set up and the impressions of the o-ring is definitely maiking its impact more than enough if you ask me. I went a whole year trying to find out a solution to my high boost pushing coolant problem and I , without wearing my keyboard out typing, found the solution and its what I mention above and I am happy to report what worked for me and if someone want to copy they can without having to spend hundreds of street hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Trust me the .005 oring on my 500+ horsepower engine did the trick. All of this performance stuff is trial and error anyway and now that I have passed this aspect of the test and I share my success with those who want to give it a shot and I move forward!

 

[codeofdastreets]

who makes a copper head gasket??

 

[tron2119]

You can get one here-http://www.ffwdconnection.com/headgaskets.shtml

 

[jrohner]

Man you are cursing becuase you don't want to hear the truth maybe you are feeling the effects of the economy and can't pay your bills. Frankly I don't give a rats rear end what you think I know what is working for me . I used to respect jackson and have even purchased from you guys but no more you are showing that you are just as ignorant as most who don't have a clue. I post results long and short. I can post pics of a head gasket that came off this set up and the impressions of the o-ring is definitely maiking its impact more than enough if you ask me. I went a whole year trying to find out a solution to my high boost pushing coolant problem and I , without wearing my keyboard out typing, found the solution and its what I mention above and I am happy to report what worked for me and if someone want to copy they can without having to spend hundreds of street hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Trust me the .005 oring on my 500+ horsepower engine did the trick. All of this performance stuff is trial and error anyway and now that I have passed this aspect of the test and I share my success with those who want to give it a shot and I move forward!

You could do 500hp on a felpro composite and decent surfaces, so I fail to understand why you're slamming him just because your setup is working for you.

 

[EclipticalGS]

The way that steel orings apply contorting to the head when not properly clearanced (mating grooves in the head) is the reason I don't use them. I work in the metrics field and can say that your head being torqued down onto steel orings is very uneven pressures to the head. Instead of distributing the torque with the headstuds and composite gasket evenly across the deck, you are leaving the distribution on (4) thin steel orings.

Now imagine torquing your headstuds, especially the L19s with their high torque spec, this is more than enough yield to flex the aluminum head unevely around the four corners ultimately distorting it towards the center. Just asking for trouble.

Me and a close friend went through this very thoroughly with his gto. If orings are ran, there has to be a reciever groove in the head. Also your not done yet, just choosing the gage wire can't be on a whim, it has to be tested. Me and my friend while building his engine chose a common groove and accepting groove depth, and a few different thicknesses of wire. (if you have a vendor account through msc wire will be an easy find at many different diameters.) 3 composite head gaskets were purchased, (1 used for testing).

Started with surfacing the block and head to a known surface finish (roughness to itself), anything less than or equal to 3.0 RZ over a 3mm cutoff length (length of computed valley to peak depth of surface finish in microns). We the cut a few sections out of the testing HG and torqued the head according to ARP spec. Then you take flat feeler gages with a 0.01mm (.00040") resolution and measure into gasket cutouts. This will give you an average block to head clearance post torque. Then we pulled the head off and repeated the torquing but with no gasket just the 4 rings. Take your clearance. We did this step twice until finding a wire gage that when torqued sat the block just a hair (0.03mm or .00120") above what the average block to head clearance with torqued test HG was. That way when the (2) .040 over felpro headgaskets were installed (with perfect I.D clearance of orings) were sprayed with copper spray, as wells as the rings lightly, it almost evenly distributed the torque area (rechecked in corners with feeler after final torque), ensures equal sealing of firing ring and coolant/oil passages.

The formentioned car saw 35 psi with the largest twinscrew they make, e85 and 200 on the bottle saw well over 1200whp, car has been sold since 2010 sadly. I discussed this method with a local diesel injection engine builder and he thought we went a little over kill with the measuring and enthusiasm, I assured him that 1200whp is overkill on the engine we built.

Would I ever do this again, or even to my 4g63?.....No.
A surface finish less than 3.0 Rz, composite HG with copper spray, and ARPs Aeromet studs (260,000 psi yield) are holding 30 psi just fine here on an hx40 pro.

Listen to me, don't listen to me. Prestige Worldwide.

 

[1fastlaser]

Not for nothing some Big companies have also ran O ring 4g63 heads with a oem mls gasket. Dave, Alex at dogbox leave for this setup, and some have had nothing but issues with out this setup. They have had perfect block and head surfaces and when the cylinder pressure got to that point it pushed, O ringing the head eliminated that issue.

 

[Dr_Jay02]

+1



No. The way to do it is use a stainless wire and machine a matching receiver groove in the head. The gasket should be copper and when the head is torqued, the o-ring pushes the copper gasket up into the receiver groove. That's where the seal comes from.

o-rings with MLS leaks. Been there, done that.



The way around that is to fill the groove with copper wire, then mill the block just a thousandth or two. This will fill the grooves and give you a good, smooth sealing surface.

45PSI 1219AWHP- copper o'rings MLS Mitsu gasket. Works just fine

 

[rhamlinii]

45PSI 1219AWHP- copper o'rings MLS Mitsu gasket. Works just fine

That was my next question, but can you give anymore details.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Copper is maleable. What do you think happens to it when you torque the head down? Your setup would seal without o-rings. Sounds like your combination and tune is spot-on. Those who have problems sealing and then install o-rings are treating the symptom instead of the cause.

 

[zedicus]

just because its copper wire does not mean it is wrong. weve used copper wire and even polymer wire (looked like weed eater line) and in some cases it is the right tool. some times the wire is designed to work like a crush washer, this depends on the design of the groove and head gasket. if you have a groove cut on 1 side only, you probably have a crush set up (not always, you just need to know) if you have a crush set up and use hardened wire, you WILL mess something up.

we did a head on a single cylinder with no gasket, cut the head and cylinder to 10 thousandths flat/smooth. grooved just the cylinder, and ran polymer line. it was designed to work in a crush set up on the non-grooved head.

copper wire is usually used with some sort of soft lead based or fiber based gasket. stainless wire is usually used on dual grooves with a copper gasket.

 

[Dr_Jay02]

That was my next question, but can you give anymore details.

Sure what exactly do you want to know?

 

[red1993gsallmt]

Jackson auto, any reason why you say to fill the grooves with copper wire and not stainless when wanting to mill it down to get rid of the orings? I have stainless o rings in my head and want to get rid of them so my machinest is just leaving the stainless in and milling it down.

 

[codeofdastreets]

Jackson auto, any reason why you say to fill the grooves with copper wire and not stainless when wanting to mill it down to get rid of the orings? I have stainless o rings in my head and want to get rid of them so my machinest is just leaving the stainless in and milling it down.

x2 I'd like to know the answer to that also

 

[BogusSVO]

Jackson auto, any reason why you say to fill the grooves with copper wire and not stainless when wanting to mill it down to get rid of the orings? I have stainless o rings in my head and want to get rid of them so my machinest is just leaving the stainless in and milling it down.

I have a theroy on why JAM says to install the copper rings.

Both alum and copper are fairly soft.

Depending on the equipment being used for the surfacing, the diffreance between the alum and stanless will be to drastic and not leave the proper surface finish.

The chips of stainless may could get caught between the cutter balde and drag aross leaving a pattern that is too rough.

 

[JacksonAuto]

Jackson auto, any reason why you say to fill the grooves with copper wire and not stainless when wanting to mill it down to get rid of the orings? I have stainless o rings in my head and want to get rid of them so my machinest is just leaving the stainless in and milling it down.

Because the copper is easier to work with and doesn't chew up the cutters like stainless does.

 

[BogusSVO]

JAM.... I was not far off then... I just over thought it.

 

[talont3t4]

Man you are cursing becuase you don't want to hear the truth maybe you are feeling the effects of the economy and can't pay your bills. Frankly I don't give a rats rear end what you think I know what is working for me . I used to respect jackson and have even purchased from you guys but no more you are showing that you are just as ignorant as most who don't have a clue. I post results long and short. I can post pics of a head gasket that came off this set up and the impressions of the o-ring is definitely maiking its impact more than enough if you ask me. I went a whole year trying to find out a solution to my high boost pushing coolant problem and I , without wearing my keyboard out typing, found the solution and its what I mention above and I am happy to report what worked for me and if someone want to copy they can without having to spend hundreds of street hours trying to reinvent the wheel. Trust me the .005 oring on my 500+ horsepower engine did the trick. All of this performance stuff is trial and error anyway and now that I have passed this aspect of the test and I share my success with those who want to give it a shot and I move forward!

To add to this I ran a SS oring with a steel head gasket no reciever, and it worked for me up to 1000+Whp?