head gasket (o-ringed)?[Merged 2-7] o-ring oring block

[bino4134]

i just bought a mitsu mls head gasket i was just wondering if you know if i should get my head o-ringed?

if not in what circumstances should the head get o-ringed?

and yes i am new so dont yell at me if this makes any sense

 

[TSi92]

Originally posted by bino4134
i just bought a mitsu mls head gasket i was just wondering if you know if i should get my head o-ringed?

if not in what circumstances should the head get o-ringed?

and yes i am new so dont yell at me if this makes any sense

O-ringing the head is not a bad idea.

 

[L2RTSiAWD]

You don't need o-ring the head or block. unless you are building the motor up. O-ringing is manily for high power, high boost apps.

 

[gritsak]

i need to find some annealed copper wire for my block, but im not even sure where to look at...i would rather get it local so it will be easier to play with the sizes till i get something i am happy with..but i have no idea what this is usually used for in the first place.

i guess i could buy some copper wire and anneal it (heat it up really hot then put it in cold water) but ide rather just buy it all ready to go.

any ideas on what kinda stores would carry this? thanx

 

[Defiant]

Ask your machinist, or a local speed shop.

 

[ecr1055]

We were planning on putting in a stage 2 slow boy race motor into my friends car, but we found a guy selling a stage 2 from another company but he said the block was set up for an O-ring head gasket.
I know a decent amount about dsm motors just not how the the whole o-ring thing works.
So....
how does the whole set up work? Do you have to o ring the head and the block? Do you use a regular head gasket with the o rings. How hard is it to install? Basic questions.... Pics would be great. Also how long to o ring gaskets usually last, like will it be okay for a street car?

 

[Defiant]

For starters -for those who don't know- it's not a rubber O ring. It's a method of cutting the block or head with a groove to hold a ring of wire:

http://www.headgasket.com/faq.html

http://wac.addr.com/auto/obs/headgasket/headgasket.html

I've not heard much about it being done with DSM motors. It's not just the gasket, but an adjunct to the gasket.

The Offenhausers at Indy never needed them- the head and block are one piece.

 

[gritsak]

my block is o-ringed with copper rings and im using a stock metal mitsu head gasket...getting the head to seal off to the block seems to be a hit or miss thing. some people get it to work fine while someone else with the same setup leaks...alot to do with the block/head surface prepping i guess...the soft copper rings let them compress with your tq the head down and hopefully seal off the cylinders, but we will see.

my setup is on a 2.3 stroker motor with a t3/60-1 turbo and im gonna run 25+psi so we'll see if it can hold the power..BTW my motor is still not in the car so i cant give any experiece with it yet

 

[MNGSX]

Try the stock hg with the rings.

The problem with the metal HG is usually not the fire ring seal especially with o-rings but the coolant and oil passage seal. The standard hg seals the coolant and oil passages more reliably and many have obtained a good fire ring seal with o-rings on that gasket.

 

[ecr1055]

Ok, I have heard about the metal head gaskets not sealing, but the block is freshly decked, and so is the head. With two nice smooth surfaces, it should seal. Are you only saying it may not seal because of the o rings or just in general? I had a metal head gasket in my 93 and it worked fine, and I just kept blowing the oem ones. I don't think it would be wise to use an oem gasket when we will be making a lot of hp and boost.

Does anyone know where I can buy the o rings for the block?

 

[leet]

Originally posted by MNGSX
Try the stock hg with the rings.

The problem with the metal HG is usually not the fire ring seal especially with o-rings but the coolant and oil passage seal. The standard hg seals the coolant and oil passages more reliably and many have obtained a good fire ring seal with o-rings on that gasket.

I use the stock HG with a Stage 3 Buschur head (o-ringed) and have never had any problems. Then again, I'm not putting down a stupendous amount of power yet. Just thought I would vouch for the combination.

 

[gritsak]

before i decided on the copper o-ringed block with the stock metal HG, i talked to a few people about it...this same setup is what wes hess used on his car and he said it worked really well. so i figured ide give it a try...also, copper spray was still liberally used on the headgasket

 

[90GSX]

I had coolant leakage problems using O-Ring's with the Metal HG. I switched to the stock composite gasket and it solved the problem. You can cut the rings into the block or head, depending on your machinist; however, I don't think that O-Rings are absolutely necessary, unless you plan to spray and run LOTS of boost. The Mitsu Metal HG with no rings seems to work well for most people, without the added expense of the O-ringing process.

Good luck,

 

[MNGSX]

Originally posted by leet
I use the stock HG with a Stage 3 Buschur head (o-ringed) and have never had any problems. Then again, I'm not putting down a stupendous amount of power yet. Just thought I would vouch for the combination.

It is a great combination for just that stupendous anounts of boost and or spraying a little. I'm telling you leet that what you have is THE setup for a head gasket. On the diesel performance side where a high static compression ratio and insane boost levels are common (60psi anyone) that is the normal head setup. O-rings on the deck and block, ARP head studs and a standard headgasket.

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by 90GSX
I had coolant leakage problems using O-Ring's with the Metal HG. I switched to the stock composite gasket and it solved the problem. You can cut the rings into the block or head, depending on your machinist; however, I don't think that O-Rings are absolutely necessary, unless you plan to spray and run LOTS of boost. The Mitsu Metal HG with no rings seems to work well for most people, without the added expense of the O-ringing process.

Good luck,

did you use SS rings or copper?

 

[90GSX]

Originally posted by gritsak
did you use SS rings or copper?

I used SS rings, but I may experiment with copper this spring.

 

[MNGSX]

This may be obvious but the SS will be harder. It will compress or indent the firering more than the copper. The copper will compress and conform more than the ss. It will still indent the gasket a good bit and seal while being more able form into any iregularites.

The only thing better is a dead soft copper headgasket.

Dead soft copper

Notice the beads of sealant around the coolant and oil passages? I'm thinking of 0-ringing around the passages.

The cylinder seal seems to hold up to these two compounding turbos on top of a 17.2 to 1 compression ratio.

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I know this is'nt a drag truck site. The point I'm trying to make is that if this type of hg configuration can withstand the kind of cylinder pressure 17.2 : 1 plus easily 2-3x the boost dsm's run it ought to be pretty damn reliable on a DSM! With the solid copper HG you don't use seperate rings. The gasket is just a slab of copper that when compressed by the head clamping down forms it's own rings.

 

[gritsak]

another thing i would mention about my setup that i forgot to before, on the copper rings, i annealed the wire before i put the rings into the block..which is basically just heating the wire up red hot then dipping it into water to cool it of....its makes the wire dead soft

 

[MNGSX]

That was good thinking.

 

[Defiant]

What do they do with the ends of the wire, just butt it away from the centerline of the block?

 

[MNGSX]

Most people cut the ring ends at a 45* angle. That way the pressure pushes the ring end gap together when tightened.


Use a dead soft copper gasket instead of an oe or MLS and you don't need them at all and the rings that form by squeezing that gasket have no end gaps...

 

[ecr1055]

if i torqued down the head, started the motor and then took the head off, are the o rings re usable?????????

 

[gritsak]

Originally posted by ecr1055
if i torqued down the head, started the motor and then took the head off, are the o rings re usable?????????

if they are SS you should be able to cause they prolly wont compress...if they are copper it would be a good idea to change them

 

[HiPoSped]

I've got a few questions about running an O-ring head gasket. Do both the block and head have to be machined for an O-ring, and how do I determine what wire to use? I've heard copper wire, or piano string will work. My dad owns a piano buisness so that would be readily available to me and would work out great.

 

[Defiant]

The wire's the least of it. Usually, the block is cut and the aluminum deals with it. However, it isn't done all that often on DSMs.

http://www.headgasket.com/faq.html

http://www.highperformancepontiac.com/tech/HPP0307RingingUpPowerbb/

http://yarchive.net/car/turbo_head_gasket.html