head gasket (o-ringed)?[Merged 2-7] o-ring oring block

[99gst_racer]

Take the block to a different machinist and have him check everything over (the copper wire, the block's surface, etc...) Make sure there is a mirror finish on the block and head and replace the copper wire if need be. Then run a Mitsu MLS and that should get you a good seal.

 

[getusum]

Im doing a re-build and should I run a MLS head gasket or have it O-Ringed? Im shooting for 30+psi.

 

[brute]

How much money do you have? I'm sure that you should be fine with ARP head studs and a Cometic head gasket.

 

[getusum]

Im not worried about the budget just which is best while my block is at the machine shop. Will arp head studs and a cometic hold 30 psi?

 

[mjarrell20]

ARP studs and a Cometic will do just fine.

 

[1g_tsi_awd]

Yea, ARP studs and a Cometic are all you need...

 

[olmytsi]

Arp's and a stock headgasket will hold 30 psi

 

[oldman]

Yea, ARP studs and a Cometic are all you need...

Just make sure the head is flat for the MLS.

 

[SFRacingGST]

Can someone one please help me, I had a new block installed in my GSX a year ago, today I just pulled the head and I am unsure if it was o-ringed.... The short block was supposed to be o-ringed. To me knowledge there is suppose to be a grove cut up with a metal wire in it that is slightly raised... Can someone please send me a picture or a link to either [email protected] or post one on this thread so I can see what it is suppose to look like. Thanks

 

[SFRacingGST]

After looking at it, i am pretty sure it was o-ringed. My second question is can you oring your block and head?? My block is already o-ringed, so when i order my head can i order that o-ringed or is it on or the other??

 

[1SloColt]

I don't think double o-ringing would be terribly successful because then the two orings are pushing against one another, unless you ran two different diameter o-rings, though I'm not sure there is space for that, though I could be wrong. I do know a technique used by some very successful turbo V8 guys is that they o-ring the block, about .050" from the cylinder and run a .041" diameter stainless o-ring with a copper HG, and machine a .030" deep receiver groove in the head to accept the gasket formation from the o-ring.

 

[1stGenRocks]

that block doesnt look oringed to me

 

[92awddsm]

Can someone one please help me, I had a new block installed in my GSX a year ago, today I just pulled the head and I am unsure if it was o-ringed.... The short block was supposed to be o-ringed. To me knowledge there is suppose to be a grove cut up with a metal wire in it that is slightly raised... Can someone please send me a picture or a link to either [email protected] or post one on this thread so I can see what it is suppose to look like. Thanks

Yes, your block is o-ringed.

I don't think double o-ringing would be terribly successful because then the two orings are pushing against one another, unless you ran two different diameter o-rings, though I'm not sure there is space for that, though I could be wrong. I do know a technique used by some very successful turbo V8 guys is that they o-ring the block, about .050" from the cylinder and run a .041" diameter stainless o-ring with a copper HG, and machine a .030" deep receiver groove in the head to accept the gasket formation from the o-ring.

You are on the right track, just a little misinformed. When the block is o-ringed, the groove is cut and the wire is installed. When the head is "o-ringed" it is just a receiver groove cut into it.

that block doesnt look oringed to me

Do you know what you are looking for? It is the wire rings that surround the cylinder bore. They are there, look closely.

 

[GSX_RCR]

that block doesnt look oringed to me

Looks similar to the O-ringed block picture boosting_laser posted.

 

[SFRacingGST]

thanks guys, so i should order my head o-ringed then because i can run an o-ringed head and block, right?

 

[1stGenRocks]

Do you know what you are looking for? It is the wire rings that surround the cylinder bore. They are there, look closely.

yea i see it now. not as obvious when the block isnt cleaned off as well

 

[2gAWDTalon]

thanks guys, so i should order my head o-ringed then because i can run an o-ringed head and block, right?

No, the o rings would work against eachother. It is a bi*** to have a oringed head because you cant really get it re surfaced... BTW it looks like your HG was sealing well... Just get a normal head, and use a compisite head gasket, NOT A MLS. The O-Rings bite into the stock style HG fire ring and make a positive seal.

 

[SFRacingGST]

but the o-rings on a head are bigger i thought, I was using a metal head gasket before and it worked great

 

[2gAWDTalon]

You have it all wrong. The wire o-rings will not and cannot be installed in an aluminum head. Again, an o-ringed block and head are 2 different things. When the block is o-ringed, a groove is cut into the block and the piano wire is installed. In an o-ringed aluminum head, there is no wire installed, just a receiver groove cut into it. Again, due to expansion properties of an aluminum head, you can not install a steel o-ring into the head. Therefore, there is not real o-ring installed in the head that will work against the o-ring in the block.

And you should not use a composite gasket with an o-ringed block. The fire ring in the composite gasket already has a wire o-ring overlayed by a stainless steel jacket. The only gasket that should be used with an o-ringed block is either mls or copper.

You should already know some of this because the pic of the o-ringed head that you posted has no wire rings in it, only receiver grooves cut into it.

Uhmm... the pic I posted is not of a head with a grove cut into it. That is a pic of a o ring installed on my head and it is on my car with a felpro holding boost better the a MLS ever did. Everyone I know recommends using a stock style head gasket because it is soft and the o-ring can 'bite' into it. I am pretty sure the machine shop that did the o-rings said they were stainless steal, I will check tomorrow. BTW, the people I sent my stuff to are from NABR.

Those are not groves, they stick out...
Maybe I dont understand...

 

[treebonker]

You can o-ring the block or the head(al.) and install any o-ring material. It's just a preference. When you o-ring both the block and the head that's when you use the head as a reciever groove with o-ring material installed only on the block side.

FWIW,Buschur o-rings the head only and uses stainless steel wire. They also recommend the use of an OEM composite gasket so the SS-wire can bite down on the fire rings. For more harsh apps they recommended using a MLS gasket, all else being same.

 

[92awddsm]

In the many years that I worked in a machine shop, we would never install the o-ring into an aluminum head. In the long run, it is just a problem waiting to happen. I have seen the aftermath of mistakes like these and they usually result in a junk head. Not a big deal when you are dealing with a stock casting head but it is a big deal if you have a set of brodix or afr heads that you have $4-5k tied up in. The only reason to ever install the rings in the head is for convenience of not having to disassemble the short block. Beyond that, there is not positive side to it.

 

[2gAWDTalon]

You have it all wrong. The wire o-rings will not and cannot be installed in an aluminum head. Again, an o-ringed block and head are 2 different things. When the block is o-ringed, a groove is cut into the block and the piano wire is installed. In an o-ringed aluminum head, there is no wire installed, just a receiver groove cut into it. Again, due to expansion properties of an aluminum head, you can not install a steel o-ring into the head. Therefore, there is not real o-ring installed in the head that will work against the o-ring in the block.

And you should not use a composite gasket with an o-ringed block. The fire ring in the composite gasket already has a wire o-ring overlayed by a stainless steel jacket. The only gasket that should be used with an o-ringed block is either mls or copper.

You should already know some of this because the pic of the o-ringed head that you posted has no wire rings in it, only receiver grooves cut into it.

this is why the titles of wisemen are issued. great posts bro.

the picture posted by the thread starter is an o-ringed block and you do want to use an MLS gasket with the build. O-ringed blocks make for very happy racers.

Read below

You can o-ring the block or the head(al.) and install any o-ring material. It's just a preference. When you o-ring both the block and the head that's when you use the head as a reciever groove with o-ring material installed only on the block side.

FWIW,Buschur o-rings the head only and uses stainless steel wire. They also recommend the use of an OEM composite gasket so the SS-wire can bite down on the fire rings. For more harsh apps they recommended using a MLS gasket, all else being same.

Exactly what I said...

Just get a normal head, and use a compisite head gasket, NOT A MLS. The O-Rings bite into the stock style HG fire ring and make a positive seal.

The only reason to ever install the rings in the head is for convenience of not having to disassemble the short block. Beyond that, there is not positive side to it.

I 100% agree with you on this.I wish I would have had my block done, but at the time of my build I thought a MLS would be great... 3 MLS HG's later and I decided to do the head. It is purley a convenience of not having to pull the motor apart.

 

[SFRacingGST]

You can o-ring the block or the head(al.) and install any o-ring material. It's just a preference. When you o-ring both the block and the head that's when you use the head as a reciever groove with o-ring material installed only on the block side.

FWIW,Buschur o-rings the head only and uses stainless steel wire. They also recommend the use of an OEM composite gasket so the SS-wire can bite down on the fire rings. For more harsh apps they recommended using a MLS gasket, all else being same.

so i could get my head cut out for the reciever groove for the o-ring i already have in my block... Is it worth it?? How much better will it be if any at all??

 

[92awddsm]

so i could get my head cut out for the reciever groove for the o-ring i already have in my block... Is it worth it?? How much better will it be if any at all??

If you dont have any hg problems and you are running less than 40 psi, there would be no need to do anything with the head. At this point, it would be a waste of money and you would never be able to tell any difference.

 

[1SloColt]

You are on the right track, just a little misinformed. When the block is o-ringed, the groove is cut and the wire is installed. When the head is "o-ringed" it is just a receiver groove cut into it.

I'm talking about something totally different that is not the norm. A guy who I deliver parts showed this technique to me, and passed it off to Tom Nelson of Nelson Racing Engines. He's the somewhat famous guy who's known for his 1500hp twin turbo Chevy's that are running around the streets here and there:http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/. Anyways, the actual technique goes something like this:
1. O-ring block .050" from cylinder wall that are .030" deep
2. Install O-rings onto block
3. install HG and heads and lightly torque to indent the cylinder heads so a .008" deep receiver groove can be machined.
4. Remove heads and HG
5. Coat HG and block and cylinder head surface in Super 300 Permatex Form-a-gasket sealant
6. Install HG and heads and torque to spec
7. run heat guns in coolant passages for 30min at 750 degrees.
8. loosen headstud nuts
9. retorque to final specs