head gasket (o-ringed)?[Merged 2-7] o-ring oring block

[92awddsm]

I'm talking about something totally different that is not the norm. A guy who I deliver parts showed this technique to me, and passed it off to Tom Nelson of Nelson Racing Engines. He's the somewhat famous guy who's known for his 1500hp twin turbo Chevy's that are running around the streets here and there:http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/. Anyways, the actual technique goes something like this:
1. O-ring block .050" from cylinder wall that are .030" deep
2. Install O-rings onto block
3. install HG and heads and lightly torque to indent the cylinder heads so a .008" deep receiver groove can be machined.
4. Remove heads and HG
5. Coat HG and block and cylinder head surface in Super 300 Permatex Form-a-gasket sealant
6. Install HG and heads and torque to spec
7. run heat guns in coolant passages for 30min at 750 degrees.
8. loosen headstud nuts
9. retorque to final specs

Actually, I didnt mean to correct you. I just misread your first post and wasnt thinking when I replied but the technique you described is the proper way to do it. I have always installed the wire into the block, installed the head without a hg, just using layout fluid, to mark off the groove location. I would then chuck the head up in the mill and cut the receiver grooves. I have seen other people cut receiver grooves in the head without locating them to the o-rings in the block. This technique will usually cause the grooves to be out of alignment with the rings in the block.

Off topic, arent you Boner? Have I ever met you? I am Keith, Jerry R's friend.

 

[yellowrs]

OK i have searched but really havent found all the answers. I know most people are running .040 copper rings with mitsu MLS's, but how deep do you groove the block??????
Thanks

 

[rst95eclipse]

Excellent choice to have the block grooved. Most people would rather have the head have the groove. Both are equally effective. Will you have a receiver groove as well? The rule of thumb is that the groove should allow your o-ring wire to be exposed .008-.010 above the deck. The width of the groove should be .001 thinner to provide an interference fit. Your wire should be no more than 25% less of the thickness of the gasket you're using.

Ex: Your gasket is (.040) thick. You should use something like .038 wire. Your groove should be .035-.037 wide (a .001 interference fit) and .028-.030 deep (leaves .008-.010 wire above the deck).

 

[yellowrs]

Thanks for the info

 

[97 GS-T]

I need to know the pros & cons to o-ringing the block/head, and which headgasket to use.

 

[rst95eclipse]

Basically, you'll want to O-ring if you want to eliminate the headgasket from popping on you. If you plan on running an insane amount of boost, you'll definately want to O-ring (or weld the head to the block - I doubt you'll run 250lbs). The down side to O-ringing is that it will make the next weakest thing a target, if your motor decides to fail - which is generally the valvetrain. If your valvetrain goes, you'll be rebuilding quite a bit - definately the head, if not the block as well. This generally isn't a problem if you go to a builder that has practiced this and is well known for quality work. As for the headgasket, you can basically use whatever you want. I would recommend a Cometic.

My opinion would be to just use a headgasket, such as a Cometic. It's a bit of a fail safe if you ask me. A quality HG with some ARPs should hold you.

 

[97 GS-T]

i plan on running 40-80 lbs of boost. so i should get the block o-ringed and the head groved for the o-ring on the block.

 

[1SLOW93TURBO]

FWIW I contacted John Sheperd today about this question and for my current buildup of a 700-800 crank hp goal @ 35+ psi he recommended a o-ringed head and OEM Mits MLS head gasket.

Jason

 

[NewB2dsm]

Im new to this hole idea so please bare with me. I recently had my headgasket let go (cometic HP, with arp) dont know why it blew but it did. And My head has been surfaced once already and i dont know how much they took off (my fault for not asking) anyway. Here are my qestions.

Since i dont want to mill the head again or the block for that matter, iv been thinking of going to a OEM gasket, with a O-Ringed head. Now will this allow for around 30psi?

Second would there be any other gaskets that can hold pressure on surfaces that are not 100% great?

Sorry i havnt done much reading on this and, i do not have alot of funds to do what i want to do. rebuild shortblock/head so i want to get this running the best way i can.
Thanks
Kyle

 

[pitbull419]

I highly wouldnt recomend running a metal gasket without decking atleast the head.
A stock oem fiber gasket will work decent on uneven surfaces,but since you want to run 30psi thats way out of the question.
I would deck the head atleast and use a mitsu multilayer gasket.Its a little less than the cometic and in my opinion actually more reliable.
Its better to spend the little extra while its already apart and do it correct.Then to end up having to tear it back apart and do it anyways.
I think and hope most people will agree with me on this.

 

[SBR Joe]

Im new to this hole idea so please bare with me. I recently had my headgasket let go (cometic HP, with arp) dont know why it blew but it did. And My head has been surfaced once already and i dont know how much they took off (my fault for not asking) anyway. Here are my qestions.

Since i dont want to mill the head again or the block for that matter, iv been thinking of going to a OEM gasket, with a O-Ringed head. Now will this allow for around 30psi?

Second would there be any other gaskets that can hold pressure on surfaces that are not 100% great?

Sorry i havnt done much reading on this and, i do not have alot of funds to do what i want to do. rebuild shortblock/head so i want to get this running the best way i can.
Thanks
Kyle

The problem was the Cometic HP, a regular cometic would have held. If you are going with o ringing, use an OEM felt, like you stated, or a SCE copper. If you have only had teh head milled once, one more time will still be ok with a 4 layer mls gasket. The head on my car has been miled twice and im currently using regular cometic with arp's at 25 psi for the last year and a half. Either way youd be fine bud.



Joe
Slowboy Racing

 

[Burnett03]

Im new to this hole idea so please bare with me. I recently had my headgasket let go (cometic HP, with arp) dont know why it blew but it did. And My head has been surfaced once already and i dont know how much they took off (my fault for not asking) anyway. Here are my qestions.

Since i dont want to mill the head again or the block for that matter, iv been thinking of going to a OEM gasket, with a O-Ringed head. Now will this allow for around 30psi?

Second would there be any other gaskets that can hold pressure on surfaces that are not 100% great?

Sorry i havnt done much reading on this and, i do not have alot of funds to do what i want to do. rebuild shortblock/head so i want to get this running the best way i can.
Thanks
Kyle

jacksonautomachine.com makes a non metal gasket that is good for around 450hp.. I used it with arps and was able to run 26psi with no issues..

 

[NewB2dsm]

The problem was the Cometic HP, a regular cometic would have held. If you are going with o ringing, use an OEM felt, like you stated, or a SCE copper. If you have only had teh head milled once, one more time will still be ok with a 4 layer mls gasket. The head on my car has been miled twice and im currently using regular cometic with arp's at 25 psi for the last year and a half. Either way youd be fine bud.



Joe
Slowboy Racing

What was wrong with the HP? I have had two fail, one was my fault (wasnt watching boost guage krept to 27psi on pump, detenation is no fun.) This one is just a hell i dont know what happened. did even run more than 20psi on it, and this makes me think I either made a mistake, My ARP's came lose, or i didnt clean the surfaces properly, or hell i dont know.

I just dont want to rebuild yet, dont have the time or money for a full rebuild right now so im thinking of the "best" way to get this thing where it was again.

I highly wouldnt recomend running a metal gasket without decking atleast the head.
A stock oem fiber gasket will work decent on uneven surfaces,but since you want to run 30psi thats way out of the question.
I would deck the head atleast and use a mitsu multilayer gasket.Its a little less than the cometic and in my opinion actually more reliable.
Its better to spend the little extra while its already apart and do it correct.Then to end up having to tear it back apart and do it anyways.
I think and hope most people will agree with me on this.

I agree with this 100%, my problem is. If the head is true then the block might not be and i dont want to take the block apart to get it refinished. Then comes in to effect, how much was taken off both to determine what thinkness gasket i need to retain stock timing atributes. Along with the fact that with stock pistons i hear .005 off the block and i will be at a deckheight of 0. So thats why i was thinking stock gasket and O-ring.

Before i do this, im going to double check all my coolant issues, change thermostate, double check for leaks and everything. Its just pushing coolant out the overflow after pulls. So.. im suspecting headgasket..

 

[JessGST]

I wouldn't run a MLS gasket without the head and block both being a perfect finish. I also wouldn't run 30 psi on the stock gasket either.

I'm currently having my head O-ringed through Dog Box Racing. They use a steel ring instead of a copper. I'm sure if you give Alex or Brian a call over there they could help you out with information on it.

 

[95tsiawd6blt]

o ring the block with a copper o ring, and run a mitsu 4 layer metal gasket. NEVER had one fail yet that was built this way

 

[2gAWDTalon]

SS-Oring in head + OEM Mitsu composite gasket = well proven.
I run SS O-Rings in the head and a OEM Compsite HG along with 2 other friends... all 3 of us make over 550awhp and have no problems with this setup.

 

[Savage Talon]

I am running ss o-ringed head and a copper h-gasket. ARP's are at 90lbs, No leaks and no problems.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

The one thing I don't see much discussion of in this post is the installation of the wire. I've searched YouTube and found some videos with stainless, but nothing on copper. I'm about to swap out to another oem mls gasket so using copper instead of SS. But afraid of compressing the copper wire during install so not sure the best method for installing this stuff. What are you guys doing for that? I do see videos posted, noting to cut the ends of the wire at a 45 degree angle so as not to have a gap, and have the ends of the wire near a bolt hole so that when the head is bolted down, you have more clamping force in that area and less of a blowout. But my main concern at the moment is getting the wire installed without damaging it. Unless it can just be laid in there by hand but not sure yet.

 

[NB4G63T]

I leave that shit to the trained professionals as much as do my own work I know my limits too, but hey never hurts to learn if you want to. I know I had a hard time trying to find the splice on my oring job, my machinist is very good at what he does. I've watch a couple videos but they always leave out the small details you'd learn as like an apprentice machinist, it looks pretty involved to get flawless results. Also setting install height of the wire would be challenging too, mine are .013" and I run a oem composite never pushed any coolant sense switching to an oring head.

 

[v8s_are_slow]

I don't have any "trained professionals" in my area so have no choice but to learn this stuff on my own. Lol.

 

[donniekak]

For stainless I use an aluminum slug and hammer, or brass hammer. For copper I use a plastic deadblow.

 

[rseclipse27]

May seem like a dumb question but why not cut larger grooves and use rubber o rings like a 2 stroke dirtbike does,at least for oil and coolant passages and still use a copper or maybe even alluminnun fire ring and copper hg? I wouldnt think a 4g would get any hotter than a 2 stroke dirtbike.