Next step. Wideband or DSMlink?

[Eclipse99GST]

I wanted to know what would be the best way to go. Was thinking of the Innovate wideband kit from Slowboy.

I'm deciding between the two because of my MAFT setup with 650's. My LTFT is 12 while my STFT is 0. When I get on it, the LTFT goes down to 2 and STFT stays at 0. At WOT, they are both at 0 but I get lots of smoke and the cars sounds like it's spitting so I might have to lean it out more. Don't understand the LTFT's at idle even though MAF is at correct settings.

Right now have the MAFT with an AFC. I've seen good results from people with just that. OF course, my tuning is horrible and I can't get the car to run right.

So which of the two should I get? Any help is appreciated with this crazy post.

Thanks

Erik

 

[gsx951]

Best answer: both.

 

[NickatBuschurs]

Well if you just have an afc and maft maybe you should try and take it to a tuning facility. If your "tuning" is horrible maybe you should try and bring it to someone who knows how to tune it properly and see what you think of it before you go out and spend more money. If you would like to you could pm me or email me [email protected] and I will see what we may be able to work for a tunning date for you.

 

[gixrman]

I have both and suggest getting the wideband first. The Innovate wideband is nice and gives you the capability of logging your o2's. I started out with the Innovate unit and then switched to the AEM UEGO WB when I got DSMLink for ease of datalogging everything together. Yes I like to waste money.

I like the AEM unit simply because its a gauge unit and I can look at it all the time.

 

[kanderson111]

You will obviously need wideband to properly adjust your a/f ratio. But you will need either the dsm link or at least a keydiver chip and a datalogger. The problem is that the maft does not accommodate for the larger injectors very well and usually advances your timing way too much. Dsm link or Keydiver chip can become expensive if you don't already have an eprom ecu. But it is well worth the cost as this will make tuning much easier.

 

[daren_p]

I went with dsmlink first. It is very easy to tune with & they give you some base settings to get you in the approx air/fuel ratio your looking for. When I bought my wideband the settings that I was using in dsmlink were pretty close to what the wideband said. I personally would get dsmlink first, since your running so porely. Also for a wideband you don't need a unit such as the innovate one that has datalogging built in as you wont be using this feature with dsmlink since it is making more work as you would have to look at 2 logs. What you want is a wideband with a 5V wideband output that you can input to your ecu & log it with all the other parameters in dsmlink, this makes tunning alot easier. Alot of guys are running the PLX Devices units. I personally have the plx m-300 & it works great, this model has a digital display for quick reference of your air/fuel but they also make abit cheeper model with no display. The model I bought was $310 I believe, so its relatively cheep as well & the other nice feature is that it has auto cal so you don't have to calibrate the sensor all the time like other units.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Wow! Thanks everybody. These answers are great.

Daren: Where can I get one of those PLX widebands? Who sells them?

Nick: I would love to come out to visit buschur racing. Too bad I live closer to Philly then Pittsburg. But you are right, I need the right shop so I can work with someone who has experience, and who can teach me. The car just seems slow to me for what mods I have. No, I don't have any track times.

As far as my MAFT problem I said about in the first post, is there anybody who has this problem? How did you fix it?

Also, how do you guys rate the widebands? Which would be the best?
AEM, Innovate, or PLX. Or is there a better one?

Thanks

Erik

 

[daren_p]

Wow! Thanks everybody. These answers are great.

Daren: Where can I get one of those PLX widebands? Who sells them?

Nick: I would love to come out to visit buschur racing. Too bad I live closer to Philly then Pittsburg. But you are right, I need the right shop so I can work with someone who has experience, and who can teach me. The car just seems slow to me for what mods I have. No, I don't have any track times.

As far as my MAFT problem I said about in the first post, is there anybody who has this problem? How did you fix it?

Also, how do you guys rate the widebands? Which would be the best?
AEM, Innovate, or PLX. Or is there a better one?

Thanks

Erik

Actually I got mine from a seller off ebay, as far as I know he is an authorized plx distributor. Just looked at my history, I paid $299 for it, his seller name is taff-dawg & was great to deal with. Here's a current auction

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PLX-...ryZ33557QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

If you want to check out their other units their website is www.plxdevices.com

They also make units with a "gauge" style meter

As far as widebands go, most of them nowadays are pretty good from what I've heard. It just depends on what options you want & of course the more features you get, the price goes up alot. I know on the dsmlink formus alot of guys are running plx units and think their great, myself included

 

[99gst_racer]

I started out with the Innovate unit and then switched to the AEM UEGO WB when I got DSMLink for ease of datalogging everything together.

You didn't have to switch WB's just to have logging capabilitys. You can use the Innovate with DSMlink just like the AEM. (i'm even datalogging my AFR with an Innovate LC1 and a pocketlogger )

I like the AEM unit simply because its a gauge unit and I can look at it all the time.

And Innovate offers the gauge with their WB too. The only thing I dont like about the AEM WB is it's price. The innovate and PLX is much more cost efficient.

 

[gixrman]

You didn't have to switch WB's just to have logging capabilitys. You can use the Innovate with DSMlink just like the AEM. (i'm even datalogging my AFR with an Innovate LC1 and a pocketlogger )



And Innovate offers the gauge with their WB too. The only thing I dont like about the AEM WB is it's price. The innovate and PLX is much more cost efficient.

Yes I knew this when I had the innovate WB, your right the innovate does work with DSMLink but you still have to find a place for the innovate box.

I did'nt like having to go out jack up the car, screw in the o2 sensor, run the wires, plug in the unit, wait for it to warm up, calibrate, do a run, unhook the box, down load it to the laptop and then make adjustments. Thats 9 STEPS FOR JUST ONE RUN. Now with the AEM unit its 3 steps. plug in ALDL connector, log run, make changes.

Why go through all that troble when you just have to run a single wire from the AEM unit to the ECU. I don't like cudder. Yes the AEM unit is priced higher but I am happy with the unit and thats all that matters.

 

[UPGRADED2G]

no warm up for us EUGO guys......

 

[99gst_racer]

Yes I knew this when I had the innovate WB, your right the innovate does work with DSMLink but you still have to find a place for the innovate box.

I did'nt like having to go out jack up the car, screw in the o2 sensor, run the wires, plug in the unit, wait for it to warm up, calibrate, do a run, unhook the box, down load it to the laptop and then make adjustments. Thats 9 STEPS FOR JUST ONE RUN. Now with the AEM unit its 3 steps. plug in ALDL connector, log run, make changes.

Why go through all that troble when you just have to run a single wire from the AEM unit to the ECU. I don't like cudder. Yes the AEM unit is priced higher but I am happy with the unit and thats all that matters.

haha, see, you had the big Innovate LM-1. The Innovate LC-1 is just like the AEM that you have now. It's a cable with a very small inline box. All you have to do is wire the output to the ECU and mount the sensor and you're done. There's no big box, no constant uninstalling, and the LC-1 is half the price of the AEM.
LC-1 Link

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[MaNGiNa24]

haha, see, you had the big Innovate LM-1. The Innovate LC-1 is just like the AEM that you have now. It's a cable with a very small inline box. All you have to do is wire the output to the ECU and mount the sensor and you're done. There's no big box, no constant uninstalling, and the LC-1 is half the price of the AEM.
LC-1 Link

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Yep, I've sold quite a few of the LC-1's so far and the LC-1 with the gauge is also pretty popular as well.

I've heard nothing but good things from both the PLX and the Innovate kits, but it seems that the Innovate tends to be more popular.

 

[MNGSX]

Yes I knew this when I had the innovate WB, your right the innovate does work with DSMLink but you still have to find a place for the innovate box.

I did'nt like having to go out jack up the car, screw in the o2 sensor, run the wires, plug in the unit, wait for it to warm up, calibrate, do a run, unhook the box, down load it to the laptop and then make adjustments. Thats 9 STEPS FOR JUST ONE RUN. Now with the AEM unit its 3 steps. plug in ALDL connector, log run, make changes.

Why go through all that troble when you just have to run a single wire from the AEM unit to the ECU. I don't like cudder. Yes the AEM unit is priced higher but I am happy with the unit and thats all that matters.

What model did you have...

I sure dont have that trouble with the LC1...

I leave it in all the time... the 0-1v goes to the ECU just like my old aem... then I log the 0-5v lead with a laptop.... for now..... when A AEM goes where the pro-efi goes the 0-5v will go to the aem and run closed loop even at wot.... then just datalog thru the AEM ems....

 

[gixrman]

haha, see, you had the big Innovate LM-1. The Innovate LC-1 is just like the AEM that you have now. It's a cable with a very small inline box. All you have to do is wire the output to the ECU and mount the sensor and you're done. There's no big box, no constant uninstalling, and the LC-1 is half the price of the AEM.
LC-1 Link

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I bought my LM-1 when they first came out and were really the only ones one the market. Don't get me wrong I loved it for tunning and it served its purpose.

 

[highintenzity4]

If you have an eprom ecu already I suggest getting the dsmlink.. Slowboy is a dsmlink distributor... Give them a call.

 

[PSIcho]

**Newb question alert Do any of these widebands allow the O2 sensor to be mounted permanently? I know that Innovate has the tail pipe attachment for temporary hookup. I'm currently looking into the Zeitronix with the optional display so I'm assuming that you can mount the O2 permanently. Also, I wasn't sure if I read it here but can you also have the widebands analog output directed to our stock ECU or just DSMlink.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I thought this relates to the subject.

 

[daren_p]

**Newb question alert Do any of these widebands allow the O2 sensor to be mounted permanently? I know that Innovate has the tail pipe attachment for temporary hookup. I'm currently looking into the Zeitronix with the optional display so I'm assuming that you can mount the O2 permanently. Also, I wasn't sure if I read it here but can you also have the widebands analog output directed to our stock ECU or just DSMlink.

Sorry to hijack the thread but I thought this relates to the subject.

Most of the widebands are permanent mount (zeitronix, plx, aem, etc.), just need to put a hole in your downpipe to weld in an O2 sensor bung. The way dsmlink works is you have to input the signal to one of the "free" inputs on your ecu, so yes you can use any wideband that has a 5v output and input it to your ecu (for example cut the wire for the back O2 sensor and hook up your wideband 5V output to this, then you can log it with dsmlink) The only problem is on a normal logger it wont give you a reading such as 11.0 air/fuel (which it can in dsmlink), just a raw value, which is voltage.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Highintenzity: No, unfortunately I don't have an eprom yet. Would have to take out my ecu to get socketed.

That's why I figured I would ask which does everybody feel would be a good investment right now, since I just have a MAFT and AFC.

Good Feedback everyone.

 

[daren_p]

Highintenzity: No, unfortunately I don't have an eprom yet. Would have to take out my ecu to get socketed.

No you cannot socket your ecu, well thats not completely true. You can physically socket your ecu but there is no point as your ecu is not an eprom ecu (it will not work if you get it socketed and try to use it with a dsmlink chip). You need to get an ecu out of a 95 eclipse/talon as they are the only 2g's that came with an eprom ecu. Then you need to get that socketed for the dsmlink chip. They put eprom ecu's in the cars when they first do a model change so the dealers can reprogam the ecu's if they find any bugs, instead of having to replace the whole ecu. Once all the bugs are worked out then they put a standard ecu that can't be reprogrammed. For the complete dsmlink package your looking at $5XX for the software/cable/chip, around $200 for an eprom ecu & then another ~$30 to get it socketed. Figure about $800 for the complete package but well worth every penny Like I said I went dsmlink first then wideband and I would do it the same way again.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Damn. Now I feel like a newbie.

You mean I can't take my ecu out, send it to DSMlink, and have them socket it and send me the package back and have it work?

Damnit.

 

[99gst_racer]

Do any of these widebands allow the O2 sensor to be mounted permanently?

Yes, they all can be permanently mounted; mine is.....

Also, I wasn't sure if I read it here but can you also have the widebands analog output directed to our stock ECU or just DSMlink.

Yes, it is possible. I have mine wired to the stock ECU and so does Staytuned. I am in the process of doing the write up right now. I should have it in the Tech Articles section within the next 2 days.


Eclipse99GST - If you are not good with the AFC, then I wouldnt recommend you upgrading to dsmlink. Many, many people are running 11's and quicker on the AFC. DSMlink is very nice, but it is not needed for everyone; especially if it falls out of range on your budget.

I would recommend you pick up an Innovate LC-1 (less than $200) and wire it to your stock ECU. Then zero out the settings on the MAFT and use a logger and the AFC for tuning. If you can't tune the AFC on your own, take it to a friend or shop that can.

 

[99gst_racer]

Damn. Now I feel like a newbie.

You mean I can't take my ecu out, send it to DSMlink, and have them socket it and send me the package back and have it work?

Damnit.

Nope, you have to have an EPROM ecu to use DSMlink. And for a 2G, that means you have to use an ECU from a 95 turbo talon or eclipse. Like it was mentioned above, they usually sell for about $200-$300.

 

[gsx951]

Eclipse99GST - If you are not good with the AFC, then I wouldnt recommend you upgrading to dsmlink.

DSMlink is easier than an AFC to tune with and unlike the S-AFC, there is a fantastic support group for DSMlink.
Where else can you post a log of your car and have it reviewed by people who are fairly expert at DSM tuning? That my friend is cool. Say you are having an issue and post a question. One of the first responces on the DSMlink forum will be "post a log." Often, you'll be directed to log specific functions that relate to your problem. Instead of us trying to figure out your problem based on a vague description, were able to review a log of sensor data and focus on what's going on.
This is the best investment I have ever made in the car.

 

[Eclipse99GST]

Should have saved up for a standalone and then took it to a shop.

Just seems like I wasted money on the MAFT because I thought I could use DSMlink on my stock ecu with the MAFT and tune it real well and ditch the AFC and not have to worry about the timing being too high.

Feel stupid.